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Richard III found under a carpark!

2

Comments

  • #32
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    I wonder if the same descendant could be used to verify that the bones of the two boys dug up in the 17th century were the Princes in the Tower - Richard III's nephews. Would be great to have verification.


  • #33
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    quickbeam wrote: »
    I wonder if the same descendant could be used to verify that the bones of the two boys dug up in the 17th century were the Princes in the Tower - Richard III's nephews. Would be great to have verification.

    I'm so hoping that this is going to reignite that debate...he'd be a similar relation. Anne of York, the ancestor of Michael Ibsen, was their aunt. They'd have to get royal permission to open it up though - aren't they buried in Westminister Abbey?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #34
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    The documentary is on right now, on 4seven for anyone like myself that missed it the first time.


  • #35
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    For several reasons, one of them being that they were a protestant family, Frederick and Elizabeth were booted off the throne...
    And mostly because they'd been offered the throne by Protestant nobles in revolt against the Holy Roman Emperor. Frederick's rash ambition did much to spark the subsequent decades of war. As Christian IV of Denmark seethed, "Who advised you to drive out kings and seize kingdoms?"


  • #36
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Bumping an old thread, an article on the re-burial of Richard III might be of interest.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31990721


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  • #37
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    We are off shortly to see the last real King of England buried properly.

    tac


  • #38
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Manach wrote: »
    Bumping an old thread, an article on the re-burial of Richard III (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31990721) might be of interest.

    Does not compute - the link that is.

    ****



  • #39
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Does not compute - the link that is.
    Hopefully fixed


  • #40
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    And how come he wound up in a car park, did his horse get clamped or what ?


  • #41
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Very droll.

    You will, of course, now direct me to where we can visit the grave of a King of Ireland and pay our respects.

    tac


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  • #42
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    How are they squaring burying a Catholic in a Protestant church.


  • #43
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Interesting to note that EVERY English monarch who died before the reformation is now buried in a Church of England church of one kind or another.

    I guess that the two churches can live with it, after all, the head of the RC Church in England was at the initial funeral service - if he had any reservations about it he certainly didn't say anything.

    Besides, there are only a couple of RC cathedrals in the country - 'Paddy's Wigwam' in Liverpool, and Westminster Cathedral in, uh, Westminster, neither of which had anything to do with Richard III. I 'spose that the RC Cathedral in Armagh might have been a possibility, but Richard, as far as we know, never went to Ireland for anything.

    tac


  • #44
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    tac foley wrote: »
    Interesting to note that EVERY English monarch who died before the reformation is now buried in a Church of England church of one kind or another.

    I guess that the two churches can live with it, after all, the head of the RC Church in England was at the initial funeral service - if he had any reservations about it he certainly didn't say anything.

    Besides, there are only a couple of RC cathedrals in the country - 'Paddy's Wigwam' in Liverpool, and Westminster Cathedral in, uh, Westminster, neither of which had anything to do with Richard III. I 'spose that the RC Cathedral in Armagh might have been a possibility, but Richard, as far as we know, never went to Ireland for anything.

    tac

    Given how OTT this has become surprised that some miltant catholics are not having a sit in.

    Anyway seems to have more to do with creating a Tourist attraction in Leicester than anything else.


  • #45
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    This is England. There appears to be a marked absence of militant Christians of any particular persuasion.

    As for the comment on making a tourist attraction in Leicester, I agree that the place could certainly use some help in improving its image as the city with the largest population from the Indian sub-continent AND the largest covered market in the UK.

    The main problem that you seem to be representing is that of suddenly having to deal with a lost king who has had over 500 years of bad press, but according to the church teachings has been forgiven and absolved of all his sins, and is now having a long-overdue Christian burial, as is his due as the anointed king of England etc..

    Having been a member of the R3S for many years, I'm well-used to dealing with day-to-day coals heaped on the head of a man who was well-loved by his people in the North, and greatly-mourned at the time. After all, what was England getting in return? A half-Welsh/half-French usurper with no real history?

    tac


  • #46
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭donaghs


    who the fug wrote: »
    How are they squaring burying a Catholic in a Protestant church.

    The C of E claims it lineage from the pre-Reformation Christian Church in England and Wales. It holds all the Churches and graveyards from that time (which the state didn't confiscate). Catholic and Protestant didn't exist before the Reformation.

    But even the Catholic Church isn't the medieval Catholic Church anymore. Many changes having taken place. Vatican II being a particular radical one.


  • #47
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Personally so long as the remains were given a respectiful burial ceromony, I'd have no issue even if it was not a Catholic funeral which would have had a link both doctrinally and with the recussant Catholics in the realm.


  • #48
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    He was buried with rosary beads in his hand so I wouldn't worry


  • #49
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    who the fug wrote: »
    How are they squaring burying a Catholic in a Protestant church.
    From the Catholic point of view, this is not a problem. The Irish countryside is filled with Anglican churches in whose churchyards numerous Catholics are buried. It has never been an aspect of Catholic teaching or practice that Catholics have to be buried in a place owned or managed by the Catholic church.
    tac foley wrote: »
    The main problem that you seem to be representing is that of suddenly having to deal with a lost king who has had over 500 years of bad press, but according to the church teachings has been forgiven and absolved of all his sins, and is now having a long-overdue Christian burial, as is his due as the anointed king of England etc.
    He had a Christian burial the first time around. He was buried in the choir of the Franciscan friary in Leicester, which would be a fairly high-status burial place. SFAIK there was a funeral mass and committal at the time. The service being said this time round is a (multidenominational) memorial service, not a funeral service, because he has already had a funeral. About ten years after the burial, Henry VII paid for a marble and alabaster tomb on the spot where he was buried. It was only after the dissolution of the monasteries and the demolition of this particular abbey that the memory of the location of his burial place was lost.

    Leicester Cathedral was chosen for the reburial as it's the nearest active burial place to the spot where he was found - in fact it's just across the road. The general rule in England for bodies exhumed during archaeological or construction work is that they should be reburied in a burial ground as close as possible to where they were found, and if any other bodies had been uncovered in the dig they too would have been reburied in the Cathedral. There was some suggestion that this was not solemn or dignified enough for a king, and that he should be reburied in Westminster Abbey or York Minster, and there was also a suggestion that he should be reburied in a Catholic location - Arundel Cathedral was mentioned, but it's a long way away. But in the event it was decided to stick with the original option.


  • #50
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    He was reburied not far from where he was originally 'hastilie' buried, as the state of the body - no cerements, grave too small to hold him without contorting, et al - would testify.

    Leicester cathedral, although small, is still the nearest Christian church of note - I think that he is in the right place.

    Forgive me saying so, as a non-Christian, but you [in general] seem to making a real issue about the Roman Catholicism thing vis-á-vis Protestantism. This country has effectively been Anglican since 1534, and the divisions and barriers that seem to matter so much to many in Ireland simply do not exist here - there is nothing of the religious intolerance that we see exhibited on an almost daily basis in the North of Ireland, for instance.

    If Richard had not died at Bosworth Field, then perhaps this might still be a Catholic country. But, given the histories of local countries with whom the English have always felt more comfortable - and given that unlike France, a Romance-speaking nation, the English are far more Germanic in outlook and genetics - it would be more likely to have followed the mainland European-wide Reformation of religious persuasion.

    tac


  • #51
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    At least King Richard III wasn't left under the carpark. In Ireland there would have been some development built on top of him (Wood Quay, Frescati Shopping Centre etc.) and perhaps a plaque - or even worse an OPW Interpretative Centre.

    ****



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  • #52
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Tac Foley are you an Englishman?

    I agree with you regarding the divisions not existing in England anymore. To be fair, they don't really exist in Ireland either................apart from this thread!


  • #53
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    At least King Richard III wasn't left under the carpark. In Ireland there would have been some development built on top of him (Wood Quay, Frescati Shopping Centre etc.) and perhaps a plaque - or even worse an OPW Interpretative Centre.

    In all fairness this could just have easily happened to the site where Richard was found. Any of the building's surrounding the car park could just have easily been built directly on to of him. It's just good fortune that he survived.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyfriars,_Leicester

    While there were quite obviously some horrendous fvck ups made with regard to Ireland's archaeology and heritage in the past we now have a very thorough legal framework to protect same. Over the course of the boom a huge number of important archaeological sites were excavated and recorded in advance of construction.

    Despite what people seem to think Ireland isn't unique in making mistakes with regard to it's heritage.


  • #54
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    tac foley wrote: »
    The main problem that you seem to be representing is that of suddenly having to deal with a lost king who has had over 500 years of bad press, but according to the church teachings has been forgiven and absolved of all his sins, and is now having a long-overdue Christian burial, as is his due as the anointed king of England etc..
    tac

    People probably forget he ordered the deaths of two little boys, his nephews.


  • #55
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Tac Foley are you an Englishman?

    I agree with you regarding the divisions not existing in England anymore. To be fair, they don't really exist in Ireland either................apart from this thread!

    #1 comment - No, I am not.

    #2 comment - Tell that to any member of an Orange Lodge.

    tac


  • #56
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    People probably forget he ordered the deaths of two little boys, his nephews.

    There is now some small evidence that the boys may have been killed, not because he actually ordered that it be done, but that like Henry and Thomas á Becket, Richard said something along the lines of 'would that I be rid of this troublesome pair'...

    We'll never know the truth.

    It does, however, taint his image forever, and I'm not excusing him of it, in spite of my support for his 'whitewashing', as some call it.

    Richard was simply a king and man of his time.

    tac


  • #57
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Although a very English event, it was interesting to note the Irish accents of a dean and a bishop participating at the re-internment service which is currently showing on-line Ch 4. Furthermore the black plinth upon which the top 4 ton block of Swaledale stone rests is Kilkenny marble.


  • #58
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Many priests in England are Irish, from one part of the island or another. All four priests in our local town RC church are Irish.

    tac


  • #59
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Are you Irish living in England Tac Foley?


  • #60
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Does it matter what I am?

    I'm not in the least interested in who you might be, nor anybody else on this forum. If it was intended to be for Irish people only, then it would be in the forum charter. However, I can't find anything barring me from being here, and you know that my father was Irish because I've said so.

    Let's leave it at that.

    tac


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  • #61
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    tac foley wrote: »
    There is now some small evidence that the boys may have been killed, not because he actually ordered that it be done, but that like Henry and Thomas á Becket, Richard said something along the lines of 'would that I be rid of this troublesome pair'...

    We'll never know the truth.

    It does, however, taint his image forever, and I'm not excusing him of it, in spite of my support for his 'whitewashing', as some call it.

    Richard was simply a king and man of his time.

    tac

    Is this why Richard III wasn't originally buried in either Westminster Abbey or Windsor like the previous or subsequent monarchs ? - he dirtied his bib so to speak.


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