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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I heard an interview on the radio. Yesterday on newstalk at about 12:30

    Basically...
    Healthy babies earmarked for 'export'.
    Sick or disabled babies left to die after birth in 'dying rooms'... I wouldn't agree with the above poster who said the explanations were just 'sad and mundane', this was organised murder no different to auschwitz.
    The researcher made the point that she couldn't find any records of any children being adopted who had a disability...so what happened to them.
    The mortality rate was twice the national average.
    She said it is often claimed by some that the religious orders were the only ones who would take these mothers and they did their best with limited means...but , the reality is that these different orders were competing by tender process to take in the mothers. The headage payment by the state was the average industrial wage at the time ... now consider the money that was being made:
    1. Headage payment from state yet the women were kept in substandard prison like conditions.
    2. Women were slave labour for the orders.
    3. Babies taken and presumably sold.

    This case isn't just sad ... its organised slavery and murder. The time for historians investigating is over, it should be handed over to the guards and these babies remains should be examined to determine the causes of death.

    I volunteered in an orphanage abroad, and this happened quite regularly. Any babies with a 'deformity' or special need, were left to die in what were known as 'the dying rooms'. Truly horrible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ryan101 wrote: »
    ........ It might well have been a water tank of some description, and that's what most of the press reports have been referring to it as.

    Is that some kind of upgrade ?

    Oh look they left them starve to death but but but it was a water tank


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Is that some kind of upgrade ?

    Oh look they left them starve to death but but but it was a water tank

    No it's not, but this should be investigated properly and the facts reported accurately, do you want accuracy and truth or not ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,606 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ryan101 wrote: »
    No it's not, but this should be investigated properly and the facts reported accurately, do you want accuracy and truth or not ?


    Would it matter if the Nazis used a shovel or a spade to dig out the mass graves ?

    This having happened x 800 does : ( from "The Dying Rooms" )


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xv5rJ0M49g


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I heard an interview on the radio. Yesterday on newstalk at about 12:30
    <snip>
    Healthy babies earmarked for 'export'.
    <snip>The headage payment by the state was the average industrial wage at the time ... now consider the money that was being made:

    They made insane money!

    Take the adoption, we know from Philomena Lee that her son was sold for around £1000 in 1950's,

    Now for the sake of things, lets imagine that was say $800.
    In todays money thats $7,899. But we also have to remember that $800 back in 1950's was ALOT of money.

    The avg American yearly salary was $2,992 at that time.

    Between selling off the good baby's and leaving the cost ineffective baby's to die they managed the books well to ensure they made good money.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    The Spartans used to expose deformed children and excess girl children on the mountain side to either die of exposure or more likely to be eaten by wolves of foxes. They would probably have given as a reason
    1. the society simply could not afford the cost of raising disabled children or excess girls
    2. Girls were not going to be providers/warriors and given the Greeks next door this was an issue.

    It has a certain plausibility viewed as at 3000 years ago but to today's standards it was brutal to say the least.

    Come 3000 years forward to the present day the only difference I can see is that the Nuns did not use them to feed wild animals and they were at least showing gender equality killing boys and girls alike.

    I am having a problem with this. Firstly, as a human I don't want to believe this. I mean, how are they different fro Ted Bundy? A member of his last defense team, agreed. "Ted," she wrote, "was the very definition of heartless evil." A cold hearted sociopathic killer.

    Secondly I hear in my head a voice of some old Nun shuffling with a baby through to the 'special' room crooning "Don't worry love... it is all for the best" but I cannot work out if it is to the mother or the baby or both.

    There are stories that I really wish I had not come across and this is one of them.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Bellatori wrote: »
    Secondly I hear in my head a voice of some old Nun shuffling with a baby through to the 'special' room crooning "Don't worry love... it is all for the best" but I cannot work out if it is to the mother or the baby or both.

    There are stories that I really wish I had not come across and this is one of them.

    You left out the other party in this,
    Perhaps it was best for the nuns...in their eye's?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭smokingman


    I'm sure they qualified it with "Sure they don't have a soul anyway"


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You left out the other party in this,
    Perhaps it was best for the nuns...in their eye's?
    smokingman wrote: »
    I'm sure they qualified it with "Sure they don't have a soul anyway"

    If that were true it would mean they were simply run of the mill 'do badders'. Essentially stupid and examples of what was once called 'the banality of evil'. It wouldn't make me want to take a liquid lunch and a walk to forget about the images it calls up. What worries/gets to me is that I think they really did believe they were doing good. Little baby Jesus wants me for a sunbeam type of good. That is truly more terrifying. It is the (now blessed) Mother Teresa attitude to suffering.

    I know I am somewhat over reacting but as I posted earlier, there are some stories that you just wish you had never come across. I was at the birth of both my daughters and have a two and one half year old grandson.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Manach wrote: »
    Not to be cognisance of that fact, in the pursuit of condemning the Church shows this thread more fitting for the conspiracy forum .
    I'd agree we need a broader interpretation than just attacking the Church. However, do bear in mind that the Church would have been quite comfortable in deciding for people what was right. And, indeed, many would have accepted their authority. The State would have respected the right of the Church to manage social policy, and not sought to impose any external standard.

    At the same time, consider the claims that the Church would make. It has the Earthly franchise for all that's right and proper. It's the vehicle through which the finest human virtues are pursued. And then compare it to what actually was the case.

    More than that, consider how these issues conflict with the kind of idealistic view of Irish rural society, which still has some currency. There's quite a lot to this issue.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,815 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Manach wrote: »
    One thing I agree with in the article was the knowledge of history is important. Other than that lots of speculation by an author pushing an agenda. On that point, I'd be guilty of myself for what I've formally learnt of history is that there are rarely neutral voices.
    So for balance, I'd know that the Church took on board the dregs of society that Ireland state did not seek to engage with - that generations either ended up there or were forced to head to England based on a de facto government policy. Given the state of medical resources and skill, even in the best of circumstances, the life expectancy of children even in the most advanced of countries was less than ideal. Not to be cognisance of that fact, in the pursuit of condemning the Church shows this thread more fitting for the conspiracy forum .

    Boo-fucking-hoo. The Church deserves to be suffocated in criticism for how they've raped this country. The only differences between Church-dominated Ireland and Franco's Spain is that Franco's Spain had better weather and that there wasn't a veneer of democracy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    gctest50 wrote: »

    This having happened x 800 does : ( from "The Dying Rooms" )


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xv5rJ0M49g

    Tragic clip, highlighting the Chinese atheist state's one child policy


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Tragic clip, highlighting the Chinese atheist state's one child policy

    Well, 50 years ago in Tuam it was being done by women in wimples.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The church meets over the brewing horror and it looks like they might support the building of a monument to the 800 dead children and might even agree to hold a service of commemoration.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/church-to-meet-over-memorial-for-800-babies-at-mass-grave-30321303.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,815 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Tragic clip, highlighting the Chinese atheist state's one child policy

    Nice whataboutery there, keep telling yourself that these 800 children's skeletons being stuffed in a septic tank are a lie by the "SECULAR MEEJA".


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    robindch wrote: »
    The church meets over the brewing horror and it looks like they might support the building of a monument to the 800 dead children and might even agree to hold a service of commemoration.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/church-to-meet-over-memorial-for-800-babies-at-mass-grave-30321303.html

    Doubt they'll be so "helpful" when more detailed records are requested and compensation requests are made,

    Is there nothing a good mass can't sort out eh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    robindch wrote: »
    The church meets over the brewing horror and it looks like they might support the building of a monument to the 800 dead children and might even agree to hold a service of commemoration.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/church-to-meet-over-memorial-for-800-babies-at-mass-grave-30321303.html
    I presume that's after cooperating fully with the state investigation and sincerely apologising and making good with those affected, releasing records and talking responsibility for the situation?

    Yes?...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Nice whataboutery there, keep telling yourself that these 800 children's skeletons being stuffed in a septic tank are a lie by the "SECULAR MEEJA".

    Keep pretending that's what I said. There should be a full factual independent investigation. I welcome the media reports, provided what they report is factual, fact checked and correct, as is expected of the standards of impartial international journalism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ryan101 wrote: »
    This is incorrect. An underground tank actually protects from the frost.
    Lots of underground reservoir water tanks exist in Ireland, particularly for old underground springs/ wells. Pumps are not required if such tanks are located in land that is above the supply area. It might well have been a water tank of some description, and that's what most of the press reports have been referring to it as.


    Whats the relevance of the supposed difference?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Nodin wrote: »
    Whats the relevance of the supposed difference?

    Accuracy, and factual reporting.


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Accuracy, and factual reporting.

    Its hardly a make or break detail though,

    If the bodies were dumped in a hole or buried in a water tank, sewage tank or metal drums has no affect on the abnormally high death rate and all the other issues surrounding this home.

    Fact remains they were buried unmarked and there are far more pressing details of these deaths and/or murders that need to be investigated, far far more important and pressing then if it was a water tank or sewage tank.
    :rolleyes:

    There are certainly more important details that you should be concerned about then this,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Its hardly a make or break detail though,

    I agree it matters not either way, but facts should still be accurately reported.
    A previous poster was very adamant it was a septic tank, despite the press reports. It was posted in response to that, so perhaps you should address it to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    pauldla wrote: »
    One of the advantages of having no belief in God is that one will never be compelled to post nonsense on an Internet forum trying to explain away or obfuscate the finding of 800 corpses in a septic tank.

    :mad:

    A belief in God doesn't bring with it any compulsion to make any efforts to cover this up or explain it.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    A belief in God doesn't bring with it any compulsion to make any efforts to cover this up or explain it.

    But its not just a belief in god though,
    Its the power that came with the structure of the catholic church,

    As history has shown pretty much the most evil crimes all can be covered up in order to protect mother church,


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    gctest50 wrote: »
    ryan101 wrote: »
    No it's not, but this should be investigated properly and the facts reported accurately, do you want accuracy and truth or not ?
    Would it matter if the Nazis used a shovel or a spade to dig out the mass graves ?
    We're either looking for the truth, or we're looking for something that's "like" the truth.
    Bellatori wrote: »
    Secondly I hear in my head a voice of some old Nun shuffling with a baby through to the 'special' room crooning "Don't worry love... it is all for the best" but I cannot work out if it is to the mother or the baby or both.
    I've heard "God's will" being one reason. Lucifer sounds like a nicer god than the christian one, tbh!
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Now for the sake of things, lets imagine that was say $800.
    In todays money thats $7,899. But we also have to remember that $800 back in 1950's was ALOT of money.

    The avg American yearly salary was $2,992 at that time.
    Most people will have read about how the mothers were sent to the laundries as no-one else would want them, and work dawn to dusk making money for the RCC.
    robindch wrote: »
    The church meets over the brewing horror and it looks like they might support the building of a monument to the 800 dead children and might even agree to hold a service of commemoration.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/church-to-meet-over-memorial-for-800-babies-at-mass-grave-30321303.html
    I'd be thinking they'll offer a pittance, most likely collected from it's own parish some week.

    I also note that the bones were found in 1975. Yet I only heard about it recently.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Whats the relevance of the supposed difference?
    The difference between putting them into a mass coffin, and burying them in sh|t, I suppose? Also, they'd have to be dead before going into a water tank. Not so much if they were being flung into a tank of poo.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    the_syco wrote: »
    Also, they'd have to be dead before going into a water tank. Not so much if they were being flung into a tank of poo.

    Throwing a already sick kid into water or **** will have the same affect, they'll die. Death of a very sinful baby who effectively has no soul was likely not a big loss to the nuns,

    Remember these nuns saw these children as lesser then the avg child, after all they used to threated the local kids that if they weren't good they'd have to sit beside one of the kids from the home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'm pretty sickened by this. These 800 kids could have been any of our relatives from that era. They were someone's brother, sister, son or daughter and they're our fellow citizens.

    They had their human rights completely violated and ended up dead in and forgotten about in a septic tank.

    That is the disgusting reality of it and there is no justification for it and never ever will be.

    If the Gardai don't investigate it as a crime scene, even just to establish what happened if all those behind it are long since dead, it just shows how uncaring this country was and continues to be.

    I don't really care what the twisted rationale was for how they ended up there but they deserve their deaths to be explained and investigated and their existence acknowledged!

    This is 800 Irish children buried in a septic tank in the 20th century. If that isn't causing outrage, there's something very wrong.

    These kids never got a hug, never got any human affection, probably never even got a chance to have a conversation with a normal person and were treated appallingly then when they died thrown into a tank!

    That is just so sick and twisted you couldn't even make it up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I'm pretty sickened by this. These 800 kids could have been any of our relatives from that era. They were someone's brother, sister, son or daughter and they're our fellow citizens.

    They had their human rights completely violated and ended up dead in and forgotten about in a septic tank.

    That is the disgusting reality of it and there is no justification for it and never ever will be.

    If the Gardai don't investigate it as a crime scene, even just to establish what happened if all those behind it are long since dead, it just shows how uncaring this country was and continues to be.

    I don't really care what the twisted rationale was for how they ended up there but they deserve their deaths to be explained and investigated and their existence acknowledged!

    This is 800 Irish children buried in a septic tank in the 20th century. If that isn't causing outrage, there's something very wrong.

    Yes there should be outrage if there is no independent, factual investigation.
    And if any crime has been committed the Gardai should follow it up immediately with prosecutions.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    the_syco wrote: »
    I also note that the bones were found in 1975. Yet I only heard about it recently.
    .


    Noticed that as well. It does not specify of course of the 800 that have had their deaths recorded, how many were simply dumped in that manner as described. Also, one has to try and figure out how many died of natural causes and others that were allegedly left there to die.

    Clearly an independant investigation is warranted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    pauldla wrote: »
    One of the advantages of having no belief in God is that one will never be compelled to post nonsense on an Internet forum trying to explain away or obfuscate the finding of 800 corpses in a septic tank.

    :mad:

    Interesting take you have.

    The very existence of this thread is made possible by an unbelief in a god (atheist forum) and has seen posters try to pretend they are aware of the details of this case. They are, of course, entirely unaware and relying on third-hand rumour to try to pass judgement on their sworn enemy, the RCC.

    Belief in a god, or not, I'd prefer to hear actual facts. I guess I'm a rationalist, where others are not.


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