Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Zillah · 30-07-2012 11:24am

Sappa wrote: »

Take it easy there lad,
I've a few queer mates who actually are the ones who told me that they have no desire to marry but in fact it's the flamboyant over the top ones like The Alan Carrs or Brian dowlings who like a but if camp and limelight.
What I did say was homo couples should be afforded similar legal rights for tax and inheritance which is the very same as a married couple.
If you want to go out and spend thousands on roses and wedding venues to feel special for a day then that's a decision for you but personally undone see the need for two men to go out and do this.

You're so confused.

What gay people are allowed to do now: Go out and throw a big, theatrical wedding for themselves with roses and drama, but without any legal backing.
What gay people are not allowed now: To get the same legal rights as straight couples, such as inheritance and tax.

What you're doing is advocating gay marriage. When people say "Gay people should be able to get married" they mean the legal rights, not the ceremony. We can already do the ceremony. I, for one, would rather claw my eyes out than be the focus of a wedding celebration, but I sure as well would like to be able to visit my partner in hospital even if his conservative parents don't like it.

Bannasidhe · 30-07-2012 11:32am

G.K. wrote: »

Do you think differently for straight couples?

And if so, why?

Personally little old Lesbian me finds the idea of a big, flamboyant, flower filled, walking down the isle in a frock inspired by a meringue shin-dig where I pay to feed members of my family I would much rather disown horrific. I'd prefer to pass a kidney stone/have several root canals/ snap my Achilles tendon (again) all at the same time.

My flamboyant hetro sister enjoys it so much she did it twice.

Sappa · 30-07-2012 11:35am

Zillah wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

Take it easy there lad,
I've a few queer mates who actually are the ones who told me that they have no desire to marry but in fact it's the flamboyant over the top ones like The Alan Carrs or Brian dowlings who like a but if camp and limelight.
What I did say was homo couples should be afforded similar legal rights for tax and inheritance which is the very same as a married couple.
If you want to go out and spend thousands on roses and wedding venues to feel special for a day then that's a decision for you but personally undone see the need for two men to go out and do this.

You're so confused.

What gay people are allowed to do now: Go out and throw a big, theatrical wedding for themselves with roses and drama, but without any legal backing.
What gay people are not allowed now: To get the same legal rights as straight couples, such as inheritance and tax.

What you're doing is advocating gay marriage. When people say "Gay people should be able to get married" they mean the legal rights, not the ceremony. We can already do the ceremony. I, for one, would rather claw my eyes out than be the focus of a wedding celebration, but I sure as well would like to be able to visit my partner in hospital even if his conservative parents don't like it.

I have always said I think they should be afforded certain rights to married couples but not all rights.
It seems to me that they want everything all at once,things will change in time and there is not a hope in hell that a referendum would be passed legalising homosexual marriage in Ireland.
I think if any partner can prove legally they are together x amount of years and contributed to a relationship and it's finance then inheritance rights should be afforded them.
As regards tax if they are together 10 yrs then give them this right.

seamus · 30-07-2012 11:38am

Stop dancing around the issue Sappa, and just say what you want to say.

You don't want gay couples to be able to adopt. Would that be it?

Otherwise you're not making any sense - "Give them the same rights, but don't let them marry". What's that?

doctoremma · 30-07-2012 11:40am

Sappa wrote: »

I have always said I think they should be afforded certain rights to married couples but not all rights.

So you DO want to restrict the rights of homosexual couples?

Sappa wrote: »

I think if any partner can prove legally they are together x amount of years and contributed to a relationship and it's finance then inheritance rights should be afforded them. As regards tax if they are together 10 yrs then give them this right.

So homosexual couples have to have been together ten years to be afforded the same rights as a heterosexual couple married within six months of meeting?

Sappa · 30-07-2012 11:41am

seamus wrote: »

Stop dancing around the issue Sappa, and just say what you want to say.

You don't want gay couples to be able to adopt. Would that be it?

Otherwise you're not making any sense - "Give them the same rights, but don't let them marry". What's that?

Plenty of them have married in other countries,didn't the poster boy of the Irish movement Alan Hughes do just that in the states.
Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

coffee_cake · 30-07-2012 11:45am

Sappa wrote: »

Plenty of them have married in other countries,didn't the poster boy of the Irish movement Alan Hughes do just that in the states.
Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

what exactly will a mother and father do that a pair of mothers or fathers cant

Sierra 117 · 30-07-2012 11:46am

Sappa wrote: »

A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

Care to back that up with some evidence?

30-07-2012 11:48am

Sappa wrote: »

Plenty of them have married in other countries,didn't the poster boy of the Irish movement Alan Hughes do just that in the states.
Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

OP, you should have a read through similar threads in this forum (and perhaps in the Christianity and Humanities forums). If you do that you'll see, argued dozens upon dozens of times, that children raised in same-sex couples do at least as well as those raised in conventional male-female couples--and there's plenty, and I mean plenty, of scientific evidence to back that claim up. It all comes down to the issue of gender roles, not specific genders. To be honest, until about three years ago, I was like you. I was against same-sex adoption. But having seen arguments in this forum and others I had no option but to change my opinion: and that was quite liberating.

I just hope this thread doesn't go down that route, though. It's been argued so many times and it rarely seems to achieve anything other than tiring those who argue in favour of same-sex adoption out.

Zillah · 30-07-2012 11:52am

Sappa wrote: »

It seems to me that they want everything all at once

Yes, I want to be treated as an equal human being immediately. I do not condone any delays in this.

things will change in time and there is not a hope in hell that a referendum would be passed legalising homosexual marriage in Ireland.

I think you'll find that a number of polls and studies disagree with you. There is certainly a viscious, Pope-loving minority that will screech and tear at their hair at the notion, but it is very likely that a gay marriage referendum would pass by a large margin despite them and their hysterics.

Sonics2k · 30-07-2012 11:52am

Oh jesus christ, not this again.

Sappa. Instead of sweeping and inaccurate statements, try actually asking the children of gay couples before commenting on how they should be raised.

Now let's all move on, just a guy who's mistaken about things is all.

oldrnwisr · 30-07-2012 11:53am

Sappa wrote: »

I have always said I think they should be afforded certain rights to married couples but not all rights.
It seems to me that they want everything all at once,things will change in time and there is not a hope in hell that a referendum would be passed legalising homosexual marriage in Ireland.
I think if any partner can prove legally they are together x amount of years and contributed to a relationship and it's finance then inheritance rights should be afforded them.
As regards tax if they are together 10 yrs then give them this right.

First of all, there are 169 differences between marriage and civil partnership as far as legal rights and entitlements go. You can see the full list here. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell us which ones you think same-sex couples should not be entitled to.

Secondly, with regard to the example you did provide about taxation, why should such a measure (i.e. together 10 years) not also be required of heterosexual couples?

Finally, regarding this comment:

"Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world."

I don't suppose you have anything like, oh say, evidence to support this view.

Links234 · 30-07-2012 11:57am

Sappa wrote: »

Take it easy there lad,
I've a few queer mates who actually are the ones who told me that they have no desire to marry but in fact it's the flamboyant over the top ones like The Alan Carrs or Brian dowlings who like a but if camp and limelight.
What I did say was homo couples should be afforded similar legal rights for tax and inheritance which is the very same as a married couple.
If you want to go out and spend thousands on roses and wedding venues to feel special for a day then that's a decision for you but personally undone see the need for two men to go out and do this.

I'm not a lad, and I won't take it easy either.

And wow, you've got gay friends who don't want to get married? Well, I've got straight friends who don't want to get married, I guess that enables me to make an absurd generalization about the wants and dreams of every straight person in existance, and come to the conclusion that straight people don't really want marriage. After all, it's just the over the top straight people like Katie Price or Kim Kardashian who do it for the attention.

Bannasidhe · 30-07-2012 11:58am

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Finally, regarding this comment:

"Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world."

I don't suppose you have anything like, oh say, evidence to support this view.

While he is addressing that perhaps he will also comment on why it is perfectly legal and possible for a Gay individual to adopt but not a Gay couple. Is the State saying having one legal parent is better then two?

Links234 · 30-07-2012 12:03pm

Sappa wrote: »

Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.

Sam sex couples should have every right to adopt, and I think this ad illustrates why very clearly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZU-HQ_c8bg

Turtwig · 30-07-2012 12:07pm

Sappa wrote: »

Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

Coming from a heavily Catholic background I shared this opinion once. Feel ashamed of it too, but I know an awful lot of people who share it still. There is tonnes of evidence, scientifically based, that shows why this belief is both irrational and wrong. But, in my experience, evidence never persuades or convinces anyone. The person just stonewalls and basically the discussion goes into eternal loop of exchanges. So, instead, I think it's best to assess your logic and focus solely on that from a more personal point of view. (Plus I know Oldwisnr will undoubtedly at some point produce an excellent objective based post. In fact, I'm rather hoping he'll complement my one.)

I do believe it's fair to say that you're basing this on personal experience. Correct me at any point if I'm wrong here: You believe that there's an ideal order to things, a purpose to nature. Homosexuals simply aren't natural. The whole idea and concept of nature is to reproduce and homosexuals simply go against that tendency. Nature, has by design or by chance, given us instincts that provide us with natural intuitions on what to do or what not to do. Parenting is one of these, and the traditional family structure is optimised to use these instincts. The male parent has masculine fatherly instincts, while the female parent has feminine motherly instincts that only their sex can provide. And only they, together as a couple, can provide for the child. Hence they are the optimal family unit.

Is this your belief? Or is there anything you'd like to add or correct?

I want to understand your belief, I think I'm in the right ball park with it too, but I might be wrong. That said, I know for certain you're not even near the right galaxy when it comes to mine but we can get to that later.

I will ask you this though : What do you consider to be the best diet and why? If you could be as specific as possible that'd be awesome.

Sappa · 30-07-2012 12:09pm

Looks like we won't be agreeing on this subject anytime soon,too many drama queens getting over excited about an issue that won't be changing in Ireland anytime soon.
As regards adoption I have two friends who were reared by gay men couples in the states.
One was a female who actually had a decent upbringing but yearned for a mother figure to discuss womens and teen girls problems.
The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school.constant bullying and fag joked etc.
He didn't have a good a experience and said for the most part he just wanted a normal family.

Gbear · 30-07-2012 12:12pm

Sappa wrote: »

One was a female who actually had a decent upbringing but yearned for a mother figure to discuss womens and teen girls problems.
The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school.constant bullying and fag joked etc.
He didn't have a good a experience and said for the most part he just wanted a normal family.

So gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt because ignorant bigots act like c*nts to their children?

Bannasidhe · 30-07-2012 12:12pm

Sappa wrote: »

Looks like we won't be agreeing on this subject anytime soon,too many drama queens getting over excited about an issue that won't be changing in Ireland anytime soon.
As regards adoption I have two friends who were reared by gay men couples in the states.
One was a female who actually had a decent upbringing but yearned for a mother figure to discuss womens and teen girls problems.
The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school.constant bullying and fag joked etc.
He didn't have a good a experience and said for the most part he just wanted a normal family.

Sonics and Bluewolf - I think you would be the best respondents to this.

robindch · 30-07-2012 12:17pm

Been a while since this gem was posted -- here's Zach Wahls speaking to the Iowa legislature which duly ignored him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ

Sappa · 30-07-2012 12:19pm

Jernal wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

Adoption is a whole separate area,no I think that is a definite line that should not be crossed.
A child needs a good mother and father influence to get a start in this world.

Coming from a heavily Catholic background I shared this opinion once. Feel ashamed of it too, but I know an awful lot of people who share it still. There is tonnes of evidence, scientifically based, that shows why this belief is both irrational and wrong. But, in my experience, evidence never persuades or convinces anyone. The person just stonewalls and basically the discussion goes into eternal loop of exchanges. So, instead, I think it's best to assess your logic and focus solely on that from a more personal point of view. (Plus I know Oldwisnr will undoubtedly at some point produce an excellent objective based post. In fact, I'm rather hoping he'll complement my one.)

I do believe it's fair to say that you're basing this on personal experience. Correct me at any point if I'm wrong here: You believe that there's an ideal order to things, a purpose to nature. Homosexuals simply aren't natural. The whole idea and concept of nature is to reproduce and homosexuals simply go against that tendency. Nature, has by design or by chance, given us instincts that provide us with natural intuitions on what to do or what not to do. Parenting is one of these, and the traditional family structure is optimised to use these instincts. The male parent has masculine fatherly instincts, while the female parent has feminine motherly instincts that only their sex can provide. And only they, together as a couple, can provide for the child. Hence they are the optimal family unit.

Is this your belief? Or is there anything you'd like to add or correct?
I want to understand your belief, I think I'm in the right ball park with it too, but I might be wrong. That said, I know for certain you're not even near the right galaxy when it comes to mine but we can get to that later.

I will ask you this though : What do you consider to be the best diet and why? If you could be as specific as possible that'd be awesome.

Actually your way off the mark,as you say were not in the same galaxy and thankfully not as your smug condescending approach to my opinions are a highly undesirable attribute/flaw in character that I would not like to associate with.
Ohh to answer your diet query,stick to one that is rich in omega 3.6 and 9s,plenty of fish,protein followed by a balanced source of fresh veg and not too many carbs.
Go easy on the dairy,eliminate processed foods and this should help you address the excess weight.

Sonics2k · 30-07-2012 12:22pm

Sappa wrote: »

The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school.constant bullying and fag joked etc.
He didn't have a good a experience and said for the most part he just wanted a normal family.

Lots of people get bullied, I was for a long time too.

In Ireland I was bullied and was often beaten up (while teachers watched) because I was born in England. Should we not allow children born in England to go to school here?

A good friend of mine was very over-weight, picked on relentlessly because of it. So that's no fat kids in school, just in case they get bullied.

A ginger kid in my class was bullied a fair bit. So no more gingers.

Now, I was raised by two women, and I was -briefly- picked on for it. To be honest that didn't last long, most kids my age didn't care and accepted it as normal.
I was attacked on because I was a metal-head, sarcastic and cheeky, had a rather bad habit of hitting on other peoples girlfriends (successfully I may add) and just being an all out oddball.

What your basic argument comes down to is "Kids might get bullied". Well, I got news for you. Kids are dícks to each other, and they will bully and pick on others for anything, from having braces, to having a drunk of a father.

So yeah, your argument is null and void. Bye now

coffee_cake · 30-07-2012 12:23pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sonics and Bluewolf - I think you would be the best respondents to this.

another time i reckon - i'm sick of all this bigoted nonsense lately

kid gets bullied because of his glasses - banning glasses not the answer
kid gets bullied because of his red hair - banning red hair not the answer
kid gets bullied because of gay parents - banning gay parents the answer

sonics and i may have been happy and not bullied because of it but for some people that just isn't enough

robindch · 30-07-2012 12:26pm

Sappa wrote: »

One was a female who actually had a decent upbringing but yearned for a mother figure to discuss womens and teen girls problems.

A mother figure as sympathetic as the following christian mum?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hItlXeo0vrA

Sappa wrote: »

The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school constant bullying and fag joked etc.

So instead of addressing bullying, you want to stop people from being able to legitimize it to themselves?

Are you in favor of forcibly bleaching redheads too?

robindch · 30-07-2012 12:28pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

A ginger kid in my class was bullied a fair bit. So no more gingers.

bluewolf wrote: »

kid gets bullied because of his red hair - banning red hair not the answer

robindch wrote: »

Are you in favor of forcibly bleaching redheads too?

hmm... snap

Bannasidhe · 30-07-2012 12:30pm

bluewolf wrote: »

another time i reckon - i'm sick of all this bigoted nonsense lately

kid gets bullied because of his glasses - banning glasses not the answer
kid gets bullied because of his red hair - banning red hair not the answer
kid gets bullied because of gay parents - banning gay parents the answer

sonics and i may have been happy and not bullied because of it but for some people that just isn't enough

I hear ya re: bigoted nonsense.

Hey - here is a MAD idea. Let's ban bullying and actually enforce that.

Sonics2k · 30-07-2012 12:30pm

robindch wrote: »

hmm... snap

Well now you mention it.... :pac:

MagicMarker · 30-07-2012 12:30pm

Straight kids get called fags too......

Sonics2k · 30-07-2012 12:31pm

As a totally unrelated side note, and this is firmly my opinion.

If you were bullied some years ago in school, then man the hell up and move on with your life.

Bannasidhe · 30-07-2012 12:34pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

As a totally unrelated side note, and this is firmly my opinion.

If you were bullied some years ago in school, then man the hell up and move on with your life.

SEXISM!!!!!

:pac:

Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

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