DART+ (DART Expansion)

Grandeeod · 25-03-2018 7:59pm

bk wrote: »

BTW I think they may find it hard to develop this land. It seems to be outside the docklands SDZ, which means it would have to go through the regular planning process and think much lower height restrictions would apply. Plus there are houses just behind this plot which would complicate things. So I don't think this area would be a straight forward development.

Just to clarify. This land was part of the development run by the Spencer Dock Development Company (a joint venture between CIE, Ronan and Harry Crosbie) since 2001 up until the crash. It was going through public consultation when the crash happened. While it may not be currently part of the SDZ, it wouldn't take a lot to change that. It does appear that uncertainty over DU has stalled plans due to the existence of Docklands station which was meant to be temporary anyway. (and dumped in an area based on commercial rather than transport requirements.) The link below will take you to the crowd I dealt with many moons ago. You can see the plans to develop the entire Spencer Dock site. I fully expect that in this current upturn the site will or already is a target for development. My only concern is that rail infrastructure on the site should be considered first and to the absolute max in the context of any development.

http://www.stwarchitects.com/project-information.php?p=00076

loyatemu · 25-03-2018 9:39pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I was just looking at it. I don't think any of that will happen.

I suspect what is planned is the following:

I think the plan will simply be to terminate some trains from the Maynooth and Kildare lines at an expanded Docklands. People from these trains who want to go south change at Whitworth Road for trains that continue south.

Yes that would suck for those coming from the West and wanting to go up the Northern line, they would need to make two changes. But I can't see any way of avoiding that.

hadn't thought about people wanting to go from (say) Leixlip to Malahide. I guess they could alternate Kildare and Mayooth line trains going to Docklands or GCD, so there's still a 1 change option for those journeys, just not from every service. I think moving all Maynooth services to Docklands would be a hard sell.

MJohnston · 25-03-2018 10:02pm

loyatemu wrote: »

hadn't thought about people wanting to go from (say) Leixlip to Malahide. I guess they could alternate Kildare and Mayooth line trains going to Docklands or GCD, so there's still a 1 change option for those journeys, just not from every service. I think moving all Maynooth services to Docklands would be a hard sell.

Is Leixlip to Malahide not a massive edge case of a trip that isn't really necessary to satisfy directly though? It certainly doesn't seem like something there are going to be a lot commuters needing served. I think we need to focus on the common trips first!

sdanseo · 25-03-2018 10:39pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Is Leixlip to Malahide not a massive edge case of a trip that isn't really necessary to satisfy directly though? It certainly doesn't seem like something there are going to be a lot commuters needing served. I think we need to focus on the common trips first!

I live in Malahide and worked in Blanchardstown, which is only a couple of stops before Leixlip on the same line, in 2015 when my car threw in the towel. Had to commute by bus and train for three weeks with a good journey time being the sad side of an hour and a half.

The train, when the times worked out, was faster and much more comfortable. Was a quick 5/7 minute bus connection at each end.

The physical route of that trip wouldn't change (much if at all) with a DART upgrade, but the frequency would. I was only able to use the train for certain shifts, due to Maynooth line's 1hr frequency off peak and the Northern DARTs being every 30/45 mins.

loyatemu · 26-03-2018 11:11am

MJohnston wrote: »

Is Leixlip to Malahide not a massive edge case of a trip that isn't really necessary to satisfy directly though? It certainly doesn't seem like something there are going to be a lot commuters needing served. I think we need to focus on the common trips first!

Eastpoint is a fairly big trip generator - there would be a good number of people transferring from Maynooth line trains onto the Dart to go to Clontarf Rd.

But you could probably put on a shuttle bus from Docklands (there may already be one).

Maynooth University would be another significant location - I assume some students travel to college from northern line stations.

antoinolachtnai · 26-03-2018 12:45pm

Well, could they still go via Tara St? You have to do the math to see if higher frequencies of a smaller number of services will give you better service than having lots of different services, but at low frequencies.

It would be three steps, but it's only going to be a one-minute wait for a metro link and a 5 minute journey. Higher frequencies on the other two lines could bring the waiting time for the other two trains to maybe 5 minutes for DART and 10 minutes for the Maynooth line. It's not terrible.

bk · 26-03-2018 2:48pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Eastpoint is a fairly big trip generator - there would be a good number of people transferring from Maynooth line trains onto the Dart to go to Clontarf Rd.

But you could probably put on a shuttle bus from Docklands (there may already be one).

Yes, there is already a free shuttle bus (actually double decker) running between East Point and Docklands Train station and the Point Luas stop.

This and the East Point - Clontarf Dart station shuttles are probably some of the best examples in Dublin of what local bus routes serving a rail station can look like.

Fast, frequent and very easy to use, incredibly popular. They've had to go from mini buses, to single deckers to full Double Deckers as the demand has grown.

The Clontarf one even has a dedicated access road.

The fact that it is free to the users really helps with dwell time.

They even have a bus tracker app that actually shows the location of the buses!

loyatemu · 26-03-2018 2:55pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, there is already a free shuttle bus (actually double decker) running between East Point and Docklands Train station and the Point Luas stop.

This and the East Point - Clontarf Dart station shuttles are probably some of the best examples in Dublin of what local bus routes serving a rail station can look like.

Fast, frequent and very easy to use, incredibly popular. They've had to go from mini buses, to single deckers to full Double Deckers as the demand has grown.

The Clontarf one even has a dedicated access road.

The fact that it is free to the users really helps with dwell time.

They even have a bus tracker app that actually shows the location of the buses!

nice - I worked in East Point many years ago and at the time the bus was, let's say, less than reliable.

bk · 26-03-2018 3:28pm

loyatemu wrote: »

nice - I worked in East Point many years ago and at the time the bus was, let's say, less than reliable.

It has improved greatly, but still not perfect. It can get badly caught at peak times in the traffic congestion entering/leaving the park.

Ideally the bus lane at Clontarf Road would be wider and two way. That Alfie Byrne Road and Bridge would be wider and have a dedicated bus lane.

In some ways it is an interesting microcosm of what is possible, but also the importance of dedicated infrastructure to support it. Lots of lessons there for BusConnects, etc.

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 9:35am

looks like the cabra station on the enhanced DART service now won't happen because the site now has permission for housing:

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/marlet-gets-green-light-for-420-homes-in-dublin-36739436.html

I'm reminded of the apartment block in Smithfield that was built over the route of the proposed bus lane. I wonder have the powers that be copped on to this one yet? ? it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

Colonel Claptrap · 27-03-2018 10:25am

Does anyone know anything about the office space in the white Crosbie Yard building?

The apartments have been occupied for years but the office space looks untouched.

loyatemu · 27-03-2018 10:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

looks like the cabra station on the enhanced DART service now won't happen because the site now has permission for housing:

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/marlet-gets-green-light-for-420-homes-in-dublin-36739436.html

I'm reminded of the apartment block in Smithfield that was built over the route of the proposed bus lane. I wonder have the powers that be copped on to this one yet? ? it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

except that the rail line through Cabra is already there, so I don't see how this would prevent the building of a station (which is just adding platforms and a lift.)

Sierra Oscar · 27-03-2018 10:32am

loyatemu wrote: »

except that the rail line through Cabra is already there, so I don't see how this would prevent the building of a station (which is just adding platforms and a lift.)

There's also a derelict twin rail track on the site which gives additional space for construction.

jd · 27-03-2018 10:33am

Here is the site plan submitted to ABP

CatInABox · 27-03-2018 11:04am

Pretty sure that the developers would be delighted to have a Dart station on their doorstep, would only add value to it.

Sierra Oscar · 27-03-2018 11:11am

CatInABox wrote: »

Pretty sure that the developers would be delighted to have a Dart station on their doorstep, would only add value to it.

True. The apartment block development has been on the cards for many years and the NTA would have been well aware of this.

I'm guessing the plan is to have the station entrance located here. Judging by the site plan there will be space left for a station entrance with further development where the derelict track is currently located.

Shedite27 · 27-03-2018 11:35am

Niall Finnegan wrote: »

At this stage in time there is no way DU will be built in any reasonable time, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make use of the current infrastructure to build a great DART system. The routes suggested in DU are definitely the most preferable (Maynooth/M3 - Bray/Greystones & Celbridge- Balbriggan (Drogheda?) ) and in order to maintain a proper system these are the only way to go in terms of connectivity. I’m no expert and don’t have a definite solution but to make this work some kind of ‘Connolly North’ will need to be built to facilitate trains coming from the Drumcondra line to continue onto the Northern line. This would be a large scale engineering product in order to reverse the direction of tracks coming into Connolly and would likely involve lots of CPO’s but this is the way forward in the absence of DU. As part of these proposals, all Maynooth/M3 trains would use the current docklands branch and skip Drumcondra and enter Connolly using an upgraded to dual track link already present and continue south. There is always the concern of northern line congestion but a solution such as this largely emulates DU and I’ll leave it up to the experts to smoothen this out!

I assume it wouldn't be the end of the world to just have that line go Heuston - Tunnel - Drumcondra - Grand Canal - Clontarf. Would just require the driver to walk to the other end of the train yeah?

Obviously if they could redesign the place as you outline above that would be ideal.

You'd figure out fairly quickly how many people from Kildare need to go north of Clontarf, and vice versa

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 2:05pm

bk wrote: »

At 90 minutes it isn't really a commuter service. Hour max would be considered maximum for regular commuting.

I'd expect hybrid trains operating to Drogheda to have toilets and overall more comfortably specced then pure commuter trains.

I really hope so, and that they can learn from international experience too. There was some nonsense posted earlier about the "space savings" from a toilet earlier in the thread. a non-wheelchair accessible one takes up the space of four seats which is a negligible gain compared to installing more foldable seats like on some of the 29ks. I don't know how commuter services are defined, but the large majority of heavy rail commuter services in the world have toilets in their stations (like the RER/Yamanote line)

There's extremely few examples of toileted services being replaced with toiletless ones, but some took place in the Netherlands about 10 years ago on Amsterdam suburban services - they came in for a lot of criticism for that and was debated in the Dutch Parliament as an attack on vulnerable train users and as incompetence on the part of NS for ordering them that way. The subsequent Sprinter trains ordered since then and currently, all have toilets fitted. And many of those services are comparable to existing DART distances and times and so on.

Irish Rail need a lot of things and efficiencies to be realised, but toilet space taking up 1% of available capacity shouldn't be one of them.

bk · 27-03-2018 3:43pm

lucernarian wrote: »

a non-wheelchair accessible one takes up the space of four seats which is a negligible gain compared to installing more foldable seats like on some of the 29ks.

If you put toilets in any new train today you most put wheelchair accessible ones, so they now take up far more space.

MJohnston · 27-03-2018 4:19pm

Yeah, there's absolutely no chance any toilets on a train would be non-wheelchair accessible. That's more like a third of a carriage loss of seating, in my experience.

citizen6 · 27-03-2018 6:16pm

Any idea how the Heuston West station shown on the Metro map would work? Darts from Hazelhatch to go Parkwest-Heuston West-PPT, with feeder busses from Heuston West to Heuston and on to City Centre?

Grandeeod · 27-03-2018 6:56pm

citizen6 wrote: »

Any idea how the Heuston West station shown on the Metro map would work? Darts from Hazelhatch to go Parkwest-Heuston West-PPT, with feeder busses from Heuston West to Heuston and on to City Centre?

Most likely. And a Platform 11 at Heuston West.:D

lucernarian · 27-03-2018 7:34pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, there's absolutely no chance any toilets on a train would be non-wheelchair accessible. That's more like a third of a carriage loss of seating, in my experience.

Did some maths based on the 4-car sets which have 185 seats. I think the wheelchair accessible toilet is in a section where 16 seats could normally be. I think 3 seats remain out of the 16, and one allows for wheelchair usability. So in a set with 185 seats, there could have been 13 more if there wasn't an accessible toilet. That's not even 1/4 of the max possible seating in a non-cab 29k carriage, never mind a 4-car set?

With this in mind I don't get why there's opposition to losing about 6% of the max seating available in a 4 car heavy rail commuter set to provide a toilet.

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 9:02pm

Heuston west to Heuston can be done with travelators/walkways like in airports. There are much larger stations in Europe with similarly distant platforms, HW will need it's own entry/exits around Clancy Quay and Kilminham. I wonder should it be branded as 'Kilmainham'

sdanseo · 27-03-2018 9:04pm

A few have mentioned new stations being mentioned on maps / plans. Is there new propaganda (to steal a phrase from the now decade-old OP) for the DART expansion, other than the Metrolink website?

marno21 · 27-03-2018 9:07pm

sdanseo wrote: »

A few have mentioned new stations being mentioned on maps / plans. Is there new propaganda (to steal a phrase from the now decade-old OP) for the DART expansion, other than the Metrolink website?

Nothing yet

Priority is being given to Metrolink given its longer planning process and longer construction timeline. DART Expansion to Balbriggan is planned to start in 2020/1. The rest hasn't been announced yet

sdanseo · 27-03-2018 9:12pm

marno21 wrote: »

Nothing yet

Priority is being given to Metrolink given its longer planning process and longer construction timeline. DART Expansion to Balbriggan is planned to start in 2020/1. The rest hasn't been announced yet

Thanks, was wondering for a moment there if I'd inadvertently been living under a rock!

cgcsb wrote: »

Heuston west to Heuston can be done with travelators/walkways like in airports. There are much larger stations in Europe with similarly distant platforms, HW will need it's own entry/exits around Clancy Quay and Kilminham. I wonder should it be branded as 'Kilmainham'

I would have thought "Islandbridge" since it's very close to the bridge itself. Walkways could be very easily provided to Conyngham Road, Islandbridge Road (and from there to the Con Colbert Road/St. John's Road). Moving walkway to Heuston proper sounds about right too.

Stephen15 · 27-03-2018 9:51pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I really hope so, and that they can learn from international experience too. There was some nonsense posted earlier about the "space savings" from a toilet earlier in the thread. a non-wheelchair accessible one takes up the space of four seats which is a negligible gain compared to installing more foldable seats like on some of the 29ks. I don't know how commuter services are defined, but the large majority of heavy rail commuter services in the world have toilets in their stations (like the RER/Yamanote line)

There's extremely few examples of toileted services being replaced with toiletless ones, but some took place in the Netherlands about 10 years ago on Amsterdam suburban services - they came in for a lot of criticism for that and was debated in the Dutch Parliament as an attack on vulnerable train users and as incompetence on the part of NS for ordering them that way. The subsequent Sprinter trains ordered since then and currently, all have toilets fitted. And many of those services are comparable to existing DART distances and times and so on.

Irish Rail need a lot of things and efficiencies to be realised, but toilet space taking up 1% of available capacity shouldn't be one of them.

Toilets on trains were good on older trains when you slip in a tiny little toilet beside the gangway taking up very little room. Also on older trains toilets require little maintence as are un-tanked with waste going directly onto the track. So a cheap passenger convience that doesn't cause inconvience by getting in the way.

Nowadays by EU regulations mean toilets have to be wheelchair accesible and tanked with baby changing facilities. They are costly for operators to maintain and large wheelchair accessible toilets with baby changing tables take up too much room for standing and seating passengers.

Toilets in stations would make far more sense than toilets on trains as they don't take up any space.

sdanseo · 27-03-2018 10:12pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Toilets in stations would make far more sense than toilets on trains as they don't take up any space.

Toilets should be mandatory in every station. They have to pay for cleaning services anyway. With high frequency routes a toilet in every station is as good as having it on the train, if needed, quick stop, by the time you're doing another train has arrived.

murphaph · 27-03-2018 10:15pm

sdanseo wrote: »

A few have mentioned new stations being mentioned on maps / plans. Is there new propaganda (to steal a phrase from the now decade-old OP) for the DART expansion, other than the Metrolink website?

I'm ten years older and none the wiser ;-)

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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