Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

VRT for travelling spouse

  • 17-05-2010 6:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


    Hey all,
    I was hoping to get some advice.
    My wife and I live seperately. I live in Dublin and she lives in Tyrone. We're not seperated but she works there and I work here. It's not ideal but we can't afford for either of us to give up our jobs. They're not easy to come by these days.
    So for now, we live seperately and visit each other as often as we can.
    Problem is, she was stopped by customs on her way to work early this morning after spending the weekend in Dublin. She was issued with a notice of 7 days to register her vehicle in the Republic. She was warned that failure to do so would result in the car being confiscated.
    I've contacted the customs official who issued the notice, and gone down to the vro (vehicle registration office) in Santry to state our case. But it's like talking to robots. They just can't see the bigger picture and won't budge an inch from their narrow minded little ways.
    You see, their legislation states that a person is resident if:
      if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).

      By that logic, I should have to register my car in the North as I regularly visit on my days off work.

      And if she were to register her car here; what happens when the northern Ireland customs department stops her and insists that the car is in the north 80%+ of the time, and is liable for northern Irish vrt?

      Does she have to pay it twice.

      Like I said, I tried explaining this but I may as well have been talking to a wall.

      I've had a very stressful day arguing with people who can't be reasoned with. I have a splitting headache from it. I'm going to get legal advice tomorrow, but in the meantime; any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

      Thanks


    «134

    Comments

    • Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭rebel.ranter


      Talk to your local TD. They are crap at running the country but great for sorting things like this out, passports, etc.
      Has to be worth a shot if they won't listen to you.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      Thanks. will do.
      I'm going to talk to citizens advice bureau and a solicitor, so I'll add the TD to the list.
      Thanks again.


    • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


      Marriage comes with certain rights e.g. pooled taxation and certain obligations. You are assumed to have a marital home and this is your normal residence for this kind of thing. Any customs official will reasonably assume that a married couple, not separated, have a main residence of some sort where they spend weekends, Christmas etc. If she had simply not said that she was married but just spending the week in Dublin there would not have a problem at all.

      I think calling them narrow minded is unreasonable, as they have to apply the legislation. If your martial residence is in NI, then you should both drive a NI car, if this is the ROI then you must both drive a ROI car. The other relevant matter is when she moved to Tyrone i.e. after your marriage, or if she always lived there.

      And if she were to register her car here; what happens when the northern Ireland customs department stops her and insists that the car is in the north 80%+ of the time, and is liable for northern Irish vrt?

      Since there is no VRT in NI and so no revenue to be gained they wouldn't bother. Even if they did take an interest the rules are the same, it is not the time so much as your normal residence.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 demons


      HI guys,

      just to put in my two cents worth, maybe you're wife could carry some recent post in the car that is addressed to her NI address say any letters she recieved from the week previous and secondly I thought that there is/was a stipulation that you had to have the car out of the state (either ROI or NI) for 4 nights of the week in order not be liable to have the car lifted, anyways I might be right or wrong on the above. Also a lot prob depends on the individual customs officer that you were dealing with a the time.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      Thanks guys. I appreciate all the advice.
      The other relevant matter is when she moved to Tyrone i.e. after your marriage, or if she always lived there.
      Ardmacha: I should have mentioned this; my wife is a UK citizen. She was born in the North and has never had residency in ROI. The car was purchased new in Omagh around 2005 and registered locally.
      You are assumed to have a marital home and this is your normal residence for this kind of thing.
      Don't mean to sound a smart arse but we're not all 2.4 children, semi-d in the suburbs, garden gnomes on the lawn model families. I have my home and she has hers (for now)
      We spent last Christmas in Omagh, and plan to spend this Christmas in Dublin, so you tell me.... which is our marital home and normal residence
      ?

      I live and work and pay rent, bills and taxes in the republic.
      She does likewise in Northern Ireland.
      So for these guys to tell her she has to pay vrt in the Republic because she visits occasionally, and threaten to confiscate her car.... we'll thats out of order.


    • Advertisement
    • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


      She lives in NI normally. She works there. She comes down for say the weekend usually?

      Just explain this and tell them to pfo.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


      She will have to prove she is domiciled in N Ireland and is a resident of the UK. She is obliged to register her car where she is resident.

      Given the requisite proof, she should be in the clear.


    • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


      Gophur wrote: »
      She will have to prove she is domiciled in N Ireland and is a resident of the UK. She is obliged to register her car where she is resident.

      Given the requisite proof, she should be in the clear.

      +1

      If she gets a letter confirming that she is normally resident in the UK then she should carry it in the car for future checkpoints. It's unfortunate it but it's due to so many people not paying vrt on cars and living in ROI most / all the time


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      Yawns wrote: »
      She lives in NI normally. She works there. She comes down for say the weekend usually?

      Just explain this and tell them to pfo.
      I tried that. May as well have been talkin to the wall.
      She will have to prove she is domiciled in N Ireland and is a resident of the UK. She is obliged to register her car where she is resident.

      Given the requisite proof, she should be in the clear.

      Ah, but who do I go to with this proof?
      Both the officer who issued the notice, and the woman in the vro are completely closed off to any reasoning. I explained the entire situation calmly and clearly but they just stuck to their guns. If she's married to me, she's a resident of the state. So it is written, so it shall be. The world is black and white. Grey just doesn't exist.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      Yawns wrote: »
      +1

      If she gets a letter confirming that she is normally resident in the UK then she should carry it in the car for future checkpoints. It's unfortunate it but it's due to so many people not paying vrt on cars and living in ROI most / all the time

      Even if I could get somebody down here to sit up and recognise such a letter,.... who would have to have written it on her side? Her parish priest? Local TD? Police representative? Maybe her boss (she's a primary school teacher and her boss is a school principal - a position that carries some level of public authority) though I can't see this holding any water with ROI customs officials.

      Any suggestions on this?


    • Advertisement
    • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


      Don't mean to sound a smart arse but we're not all 2.4 children, semi-d in the suburbs, garden gnomes on the lawn model families. I have my home and she has hers (for now)

      The point is that marriage is a legal declaration of a joint identity, in some respects. Whether or not you avail of the legal advantages of that arrangement in regard to taxation etc, you take the entire package. You can't just say that although we got married, that it doesn't make any difference. Legally, it does.
      Even if I could get somebody down here to sit up and recognise such a letter,.... who would have to have written it on her side? Her parish priest? Local TD? Police representative? Maybe her boss (she's a primary school teacher and her boss is a school principal - a position that carries some level of public authority) though I can't see this holding any water with ROI customs officials.

      In a normal case you can get witnesses etc, the customs do what they like. But in this case these letters won't help, your strongest personal ties are to your spouse and you are here.
      Ardmacha: I should have mentioned this; my wife is a UK citizen. She was born in the North and has never had residency in ROI.

      First thing is that she won't have to pay VRT, she would be regarded as a transfer of residence. Whatever about the complications you could just rereg the car and you might have different living arrangements when it has to be replaced.

      Failing that try the EU citizens office for advice.


    • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


      Get a letter from her employer and a member of the PSNI if she can. Make a copy of each. Show them at any future checkpoints and in the VRO office. Then hold onto a copy for yourself. Make a record of times & dates you presented this information to the VRO gardai etc. If she gets a summons to court show them the letters and records of attempts to deal with the matter.

      She won't be in trouble, judge will strike it out. Then you complain to the VRO's clerks boss and the guards super if you wish. They will take out wrath on the clerk etc who will make sure they take notice of any future documents presented to them in this way.


      But it shouldn't get that far once you have them letters. :D

      best of luck


    • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


      She works in Tyrone, she is normally resident in Tyrone and she pays her taxes in Tyrone. How can someone claim she is not resident in Tyrone ?

      Talk to a solicitor, that's my two pence worth anyway. To make a long story short it'll all stand and fall with the determination of where she has her principal residence.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      I understand the marriage arrangement. But you don't have a valid point.

      Consider for a moment, if she lived and worked in england, and drove an english car in england.
      Would she have to pay Irish vrt on that vehicle because she is married to an Irish resident??

      There is no difference between these 2 scenarios.
      She lives outside the state. It doesn't matter if it Northern Ireland or Outer Mongolia.


    • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


      If she gets a summons to court show them the letters and records of attempts to deal with the matter.

      Of course they'll have siezed the car long before this and you'll have to take a case to try and get it back.


      if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).
      I understand the marriage arrangement. But you don't have a valid point.

      I have a point in that that is the rule, whatever you think of it. A continuing marriage is regarded as the pre-eminent personal tie.

      If it was the other way around everyone here would support somebody having the NI car.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      Yawns wrote: »
      Get a letter from her employer and a member of the PSNI if she can. Make a copy of each. Show them at any future checkpoints and in the VRO office. Then hold onto a copy for yourself. Make a record of times & dates you presented this information to the VRO gardai etc. If she gets a summons to court show them the letters and records of attempts to deal with the matter.

      She won't be in trouble, judge will strike it out. Then you complain to the VRO's clerks boss and the guards super if you wish. They will take out wrath on the clerk etc who will make sure they take notice of any future documents presented to them in this way.


      But it shouldn't get that far once you have them letters. :D

      best of luck


      Thanks Yawns. Good Advice.
      The boss won't be a problem. But the PSNI and green side of the population are still very seperate entities. She wouldn't know a single one on a personal level. We can but try.
      Thanks again.
      I'm off to bed now. Still have that headache.
      Thanks to all for your advice. I'll check this thread again in the morning.


    • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


      demons wrote: »
      HI guys,

      just to put in my two cents worth, maybe you're wife could carry some recent post in the car that is addressed to her NI address say any letters she recieved from the week previous and secondly I thought that there is/was a stipulation that you had to have the car out of the state (either ROI or NI) for 4 nights of the week in order not be liable to have the car lifted, anyways I might be right or wrong on the above. Also a lot prob depends on the individual customs officer that you were dealing with a the time.

      Why should she ? The EU treaties say EU citizens can travel to and from another EU country as they please and there's no law anywhere on the island of Ireland saying that married people must live at the same location while they're married. The only issue here is where the lady in question has her principal residence and that appears by all means to be Omagh, County Tyrone, where no such thing as VRT exists.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭murraymarmalade


      Are you a member of the irish drivers association? i would encourage any motorist(frankly i dont know why everybody isnt a member) to join,you will get the correct advice from them along with other literature outling you constituational rights regarding your rights as a motorist.:)

      best wishes.


    • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


      The EU treaties say EU citizens can travel to and from another EU country as they please

      These laws are designed to facilitate people working in other countries, so a person who goes to another EU State can keep their car and still be regarded as living with their family. It breaks down if people want not to be considered to live with their family to get a cheaper car.


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      ardmacha wrote: »
      if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).


      I have a point in that that is the rule, whatever you think of it. A continuing marriage is regarded as the pre-eminent personal tie.

      If she lived here, you'd have a point. Even if she commuted accross the border on a daily basis I would conceed vrt would have to be paid.
      But she doesn't live here or commute. She lives in Omagh. Outside the state. Her family home is not my family home. Sorry to break the mould, but that's our reality.
      For you to argue with me only proves that you are as narrow minded as the civil servants who lack the wit of common sense.
      Just because it's a rule, doesn't mean it's right.
      If it was the other way around everyone here would support somebody having the NI car.

      Do you really think so?
      Would you get married to avoid paying vrt?


    • Advertisement
    • Registered Users Posts: 14,325 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


      OP, did she not have a Northern Ireland driving licence otherwise how did they know whether or not she was a northern resident or not?


    • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


      If she lived here, you'd have a point. Even if she commuted accross the border on a daily basis I would conceed vrt would have to be paid.

      VRT doesn't have to be paid, you are only arguing about the principle and €20 for the number plates.
      For you to argue with me only proves that you are as narrow minded

      I don't see why my offering information in this thread gives you the right to call me narrow minded. I am simply stating the law as I understand it, I didn't write it.
      Would you get married to avoid paying vrt?

      I am sure people have. I wouldn't personally, as marriage is something to be taken seriously. I'd probably get a different job so as to live with my wife though.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭murraymarmalade


      afishyfish wrote: »
      If she lived here, you'd have a point. Even if she commuted accross the border on a daily basis I would conceed vrt would have to be paid.
      But she doesn't live here or commute. She lives in Omagh. Outside the state. Her family home is not my family home. Sorry to break the mould, but that's our reality.
      For you to argue with me only proves that you are as narrow minded as the civil servants who lack the wit of common sense.
      Just because it's a rule, doesn't mean it's right.



      Do you really think so?
      Would you get married to avoid paying vrt?
      some of the responses here are just absurd.....you have every sympathy from me having to read some of the responses,

      get your head down for the night and tackle this tomorrow with a fresh head.

      GL


    • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭afishyfish


      You're right murray. I was a bit tired and emotional last night.
      But I had just spent the whole day listening to people telling me how my life must be and should be because that's how they see it.
      Fact of the matter is, she spends 1-2 days per week down here. (as much as I do up there).
      If that makes her a resident of the republic well then surely I'm entitled to a vrt rebate, because that would make me a uk resident.
      That ard fella is right in that he's stating the law as interpreted by the customs officials.
      But my arguement is that, in this case, the law needs to be ammended as it doesn't take into account people in our situation.
      Exemptions to the rule book for people in unusual circumstances are made all the time. My question is; how do I go about it?
      I have written to several TD's, and I'm going to get legal advice today.
      Ard, unless you can provide some practial advice, and not quote legislation, please save yourself the bother.

      Addition:
      VRT doesn't have to be paid, you are only arguing about the principle and €20 for the number plates.

      I know the transfer would be free. But then she would be obliged to tax it, insure it & and put it through the nct here. Ireland is an expensive place to own a car. Since she's doesn't live here, and earns her salary in the comparatively lower paid north of Ireland, she should not be subjected to these over inflated charges.


    • Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


      This is really absurd. I'd say your wife would get in trouble in North being a UK citizen and resident there and driving a southern registered car.

      Good luck, hope you'll get the situation done and dusted.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


      If you are resident in the Republic of Ireland for more than 183 days in any 365 day period, you are deemed resident. VRT is payable on residency.

      The idea of collating the information/documentation, along with the PSNI certification, is a good one. Get this documentation and call to a Garda Station, requesting a meeting with a high-ranking officer.

      Get his certification that everything is in order, and carry this with you in your car.


    • Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant




    • Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭trackcar


      VRT Manual section 2 (Relief & Exemptions)

      .

      2.2.3.4 Persons employed Outside the State but who return Home at Weekends
      48
      Vehicle Registration Tax
      The exemption granted here differs from that granted in all other areas of temporary exemption in that it is granted [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]on a concessionary basis only [/FONT][/FONT]and is not supported by legislation. Notwithstanding, a person falling into this category may bring into, and use in, the State a qualifying vehicle49 provided:
      [FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings]�� [/FONT][/FONT]the person concerned spends at least four nights per week outside the State on business (occupational ties);
      [FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings,Wingdings]�� [/FONT][/FONT]his/her personal ties remain within the State at all times;
      Application for exemption should be addressed to the HEO at the SCD office nearest to where the applicant resides in the State50. In considering the application the HEO should ensure that the applicant and the vehicle meet the specified eligibility criteria and that satisfactory supporting documentation is produced. S/he should also advise the relevant SCD of the application details, whether granted or not. Where approval is granted a copy of the letter of approval should be sent to the VRT Exemptions Section.


    • Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


      Why should she ? The EU treaties say EU citizens can travel to and from another EU country as they please and there's no law anywhere on the island of Ireland saying that married people must live at the same location while they're married. The only issue here is where the lady in question has her principal residence and that appears by all means to be Omagh, County Tyrone, where no such thing as VRT exists.

      Partially true but mostly wrong:

      http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/personal_tax/crossborder_workers/index_en.htm
      In the field of taxation there exist no rules at Community level regarding the definition of cross-border workers, the division of taxing rights between Member States or the tax rules to be applied.

      Basically Tax is out the Window with it comes to the EU.

      I mailed the Solvit Office about a similar situation (Me living and working in Germany and my missus living in the Netherlands and visiting her on the weekends)
      Dear Mr Clancy,
      We would like to inform you that taxation is one of the policy areas that is not regulated by the EU. There is little Community legislation, or harmonisation of national fiscal provisions, applied by the Member States in the area of passenger car taxation. Please follow the link for more information:
      http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/other_taxes/passenger_car/index_en.htm
      So there does not seem to be an EU crossborder solution to solve your problem.
      Maybe it would be an idea to inform your employer about this taxation problem. Maybe he could somehow refund the paid BPM taxes or he can pay them directly.

      Kind regards
      CSS

      Basically you have no EU rights when it comes to Tax, its all down to individual tax treaties.

      Just go into the VRT office with copies proving where her normal domicile + place of work is and keep copies in the car in future.

      Also you cannot drive her car as an Irish resident, if you did, it could be seized and VRT would be payable.

      Same for a Irish person living in Germany with an Irish G/F living in the Netherlands I'm afraid :(

      Basically it was the same for me, Made sure i had a rake of documentation in the car for Bank account, rental agreement, city hall registration, recent bills etc. Wasn't a big deal, just used the car as a filing cabinet.


    • Advertisement


    • ardmacha wrote: »
      VRT doesn't have to be paid, you are only arguing about the principle and €20 for the number plates.

      But she wouldnt get the VRT exemption. All people think off when talking about the exemption is proving they lived outside Ireland, but having gone through it they are equally as interested in proof that you are going to be moving back to Ireland. I had to show my p45 from the UK and my contract for the job I was starting in Ireland as proof I was moving back here.

      The op's wife cannot satisfy this condition and therefore imo is definitely not liable for VRT.

      Even without the above example the woman is living outside the state, working outside the state, paying taxes outside the state and visits Ireland for a day or two per week. Anyone thinking the above means she is a resident of the state is deluded.

      Also OP, if she doesn't already have one tell her to get a UK licence. Its easy to change over and with a UK licence and up to date UK tax it will get her through 99% of checkpoints.


    This discussion has been closed.
    Advertisement