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Sexual assault...but sure he's a nice lad..Mod Warning Post 275

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Comments

  • #422
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Yea the sad thing here is, if you knew a bouncer of the club, you somewhat expect to be even more secure!
    If I knew a bouncer, I'd certainly think "I'm alright Jack, he's got my back!"

    Poor, poor girl.


  • #423
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    I've read about this story and have two questions;

    They knew each other for years. She went up to him to wish him a happy Birthday and he insisted on buying her a drink.
    Immediatly after her first sip she began to feel dizzy.

    1) Was that because he had spiked her drink, or because she was already fairly well plastered?

    I notice no mention of drug traces mentioned in the press.

    But the extent of the eveidence of the stuggle to defend herself from his advances is noted.

    So, he carries her off but it looks like the gardai interuped him. She was lying there, in a skip, half naked, in a semi-conscious state and he, referring to her as "yer wan" was clearly refering to her as if he didn't know her.

    (2) Are the gardai, even as I write, awaiting DNA results (from him) that may link him with other such serious crimes, or are they maybe not allowed to do that in Ireland?
    (I haven't lived there for yonks)


  • #424
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    A quiet one wrote: »
    1) Was that because he had spiked her drink, or because she was already fairly well plastered?
    Probably the latter. We all know the feeling of sitting down for most of the night, then standing up and getting jelly legs. Suddenly feeling dizzy after he bought her the drink is probably incidental - I've gotten it myself before, I'd be OK, then I'd buy a Guinness, take two mouthfuls and suddenly I'd be a little dizzy for a second. That's drunkenness for you.
    It's also worth noting that there has never formally been a single case of drug-induced rape in this country, so the odds of him having done that are very very low.
    (2) Are the gardai, even as I write, awaiting DNA results (from him) that may link him with other such serious crimes, or are they maybe not allowed to do that in Ireland?
    No, they don't really do that here.


  • #425
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    seamus wrote: »
    Probably the latter. We all know the feeling of sitting down for most of the night, then standing up and getting jelly legs. Suddenly feeling dizzy after he bought her the drink is probably incidental - I've gotten it myself before, I'd be OK, then I'd buy a Guinness, take two mouthfuls and suddenly I'd be a little dizzy for a second. That's drunkenness for you.
    It's also worth noting that there has never formally been a single case of drug-induced rape in this country, so the odds of him having done that are very very low.
    No, they don't really do that here.

    I hope your being sarcastic :confused:

    I dont think thats because it rarely happens, I would guess its more that women dont report it at all or only do so long after the drug has left the body

    Personally I've twice been in bars and seen cases of drinks being spiked, I dont think its as rare as we think


  • #426
    Raiser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    I think that the Police force in whatever jurisdiction Danny Foley resided in prior to his return to the Sexual Assault Mecca Listowel should by rights be examining all of their open sexual assault files with his recent predatory conviction in mind.

    As for Seamus's very subjective analysis on the Victims ability to metabolize her alcohol intake - I'd agree that its probably best edited out....

    - Also as I understand it Rohypnol et al are notoriously difficult to trace in the body even a relatively short time after ingestion.


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  • #427
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I hope your being sarcastic :confused:

    I dont think thats because it rarely happens, I would guess its more that women dont report it at all or only do so long after the drug has left the body

    Personally I've twice been in bars and seen cases of drinks being spiked, I dont think its as rare as we think
    But we can only deal with facts when talking about people being "spiked" and not anecdotal evidence.

    For the record and ot, I reckon it's way too easy for people to cry wolf (claim they were spiked) rather than accept that they've had to much of a very potent legal drug (alcohol)


  • #428
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    OK, Thanks seamus..
    I rarely drink booze, no interest or taste buds for it, and so wouldn't be in a position to work out that detail.


  • #429
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    But we can only deal with facts when talking about people being "spiked" and not anecdotal evidence.

    For the record and ot, I reckon it's way too easy for people to cry wolf (claim they were spiked) rather than accept that they've had to much of a very potent legal drug (alcohol)


    I'm just giving two cases that I personally witnessed and I'm by no means the most observant of people

    As for crying wolf unless the presence of such a drug can be proved by medics its not going to ever be used in court so "crying wolf" is a bit of a moot point


  • #430
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm just giving two cases that I personally witnessed and I'm by no means the most observant of people
    Yeah, "anecdotal"
    eviltwin wrote: »
    As for crying wolf unless the presence of such a drug can be proved by medics its not going to ever be used in court so "crying wolf" is a bit of a moot point
    Huh? If it's not proved by medics it'd be "crying wolf".


  • #431
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm just giving two cases that I personally witnessed and I'm by no means the most observant of people
    "Personally witnessed" as in, "I saw a guy drop a tablet in my mate's drink and I saw her drink it, or as in, "My mate suddenly became very drunk and started puking everywhere and was completely incoherent"?
    Because we've all seen the latter, a number of times. It doesn't mean that any spiking took place.

    It's way rarer than people think and than the media would have you believe, for a drink to be spiked. Again, in most cases, it's done by someone the victim knows - either "for the craic" or with more sinister intentions. But actual druggings followed by a rape account for a miniscule number of rapes which take place. In the vast vast majority (> 99.9%) of cases of rape or "impaired consent", the only drugs taken are taken entirely voluntarily and most of the time, the drug is alcohol.

    Some light reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Mistaken_Self-Diagnosis

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's way rarer than people commonly believe. Certainly the odds of you having seen it twice are astronomical.


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  • #432
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I hope your being sarcastic :confused:

    I dont think thats because it rarely happens, I would guess its more that women dont report it at all or only do so long after the drug has left the body

    Personally I've twice been in bars and seen cases of drinks being spiked, I dont think its as rare as we think

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055722320
    There is a body of thought that says that it is a very rare occurance, overhyped by the media, and often misdiagnosed by the people involved.


  • #433
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I actually saw two cases where a pill was dropped into a drink. No need to patronise seamus, I know a drunk person when I see one :D


  • #434
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    seamus wrote: »
    "Personally witnessed" as in, "I saw a guy drop a tablet in my mate's drink and I saw her drink it, or as in, "My mate suddenly became very drunk and started puking everywhere and was completely incoherent"?
    Because we've all seen the latter, a number of times. It doesn't mean that any spiking took place.

    It's way rarer than people think and than the media would have you believe, for a drink to be spiked. Again, in most cases, it's done by someone the victim knows - either "for the craic" or with more sinister intentions. But actual druggings followed by a rape account for a miniscule number of rapes which take place. In the vast vast majority (> 99.9%) of cases of rape or "impaired consent", the only drugs taken are taken entirely voluntarily and most of the time, the drug is alcohol.

    Some light reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Mistaken_Self-Diagnosis

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's way rarer than people commonly believe. Certainly the odds of you having seen it twice are astronomical.
    And even if someone was actually spiked, I doubt it'd be Rhohypnol. I'd imagine it'd be someone taking the p1ss with E or something similar. But if it was Rhohypnol, the person spiked would have to be on their own to be taken advantage of.


  • #435
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I actually saw two cases where a pill was dropped into a drink. No need to patronise seamus, I know a drunk person when I see one :D
    And I presume you told the people not to consume the drink and you immediately had the perpetrator arrested? You're not revealing much information here.

    I'm not being patronising here, but we've all heard people saying, "Yeah, drink must have been spiked last night, I was way drunker than I should have been", but unless you actually saw the drink being tampered with or the person legitimately had no other reason for being wasted, you can't claim anything.

    I have a female friend for example, who ended up being carted off to hospital after three drinks. She was almost comatose, collapsed on the ground, barely responsive. Prime candidate for having been spiked, right? Nope, she had finished a course of antibiotics 3 days previously which is what caused her to get so fncked up. Other simple things such as how much you've eaten that day, or even where a woman is in her menstrual cycle can cause alcohol tolerance to drop way down.


  • #436
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    Can I pose a question?

    There is a lot of debate over the sentance - Some think it is harsh others think it was not harsh enough.

    For this type of crime, sexual assault: What does people think is an appropriate sentance?


  • #437
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    The problem there, as in this case, is that if you gave him, say, 20 years but the locals behaved the same, then it would make no real difference than if you just gave him a few months.
    The question may be, if funerals are really for the living, rather than the deceased, are sentences as much for the community as the convicted?


  • #438
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    I guess there are varying levels of assault.
    And each case has to be looked at individually, I guess with a lot of these types of assaults most of them or probably very hard to prove... It was only lucky they Gardi stumpled across it as it was taking place.


  • #439
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    I have two more questions;
    3) Was the sex attacker's current girlfriend going out with him at the time?

    I ask because she insists he had done nothing wrong. If he was single at the time and she believes the 'rendezvous' was consensual, then fine, but if she was going out with him at the time, then is that level of tolerance typical for a Kerry lass these days?

    4) Did the Judge know about the courtroom show of support? &
    4a) If he did, might that have influenced the judge's sentencing?


  • #440
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    A quiet one wrote: »
    I have two more questions;
    3) Was the sex attacker's current girlfriend going out with him at the time?

    I ask because she insists he had done nothing wrong. If he was single at the time and she believes the 'rendezvous' was consensual, then fine, but if she was going out with him at the time, then is that level of tolerance typical for a Kerry lass these days?

    No she wasn't in a relationship with him at the time and tbh I am always extremely skeptical when someone up for sexual assault or rape gets them a finance to point to between being charged and the case coming to court,
    it seems to be something their solicitor suggest to them.
    A quiet one wrote: »
    4) Did the Judge know about the courtroom show of support? &

    No it happened before the Judge came out onto the bench.
    A quiet one wrote: »
    4a) If he did, might that have influenced the judge's sentencing?

    No it can't influence the sentencing but he could have found each and everyone of them to be in contempt of court.


  • #441
    Raiser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    A quiet one wrote: »
    I have two more questions;
    3) Was the sex attacker's current girlfriend going out with him at the time?

    I ask because she insists he had done nothing wrong. If he was single at the time and she believes the 'rendezvous' was consensual, then fine, but if she was going out with him at the time, then is that level of tolerance typical for a Kerry lass these days?

    4) Did the Judge know about the courtroom show of support? &
    4a) If he did, might that have influenced the judge's sentencing?

    At the time of sentencing there was 2 years suspended - Surely this individual and his network of honourable "Spokespeople" with their references to the "so-called Victim" and every other ignorant stance they have proudly adopted have shown that in order for true justice to be served Danny Foley shouldn't see the light of day again until he has served every day of his actual 7 year sentence.......


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  • #442
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    A quiet one wrote: »
    I have two more questions;
    3) Was the sex attacker's current girlfriend going out with him at the time?

    I ask because she insists he had done nothing wrong. If he was single at the time and she believes the 'rendezvous' was consensual, then fine, but if she was going out with him at the time, then is that level of tolerance typical for a Kerry lass these days?

    4) Did the Judge know about the courtroom show of support? &
    4a) If he did, might that have influenced the judge's sentencing?


    She only started dating him after charges were brought which makes you wonder how she can be so sure he is innocent :confused:

    Love is as they say blind...personally I think she's a silly cow who needs her head examining


  • #443
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    I live in a small village in the middle of Ireland and tbh I could see the exact same thing happening here. In rural communites, people don't care if you're guilty or innocent, it's all about social standing.

    I'm picturing the guy in our village who I would say has the biggest social standing: a guy who plays for the county team, (gaa is everything in rural areas). If he was charged with assaulting a girl, there's no doubt in my mind half the village would stand behind him.

    That's the way rural areas operate, it's terrible, but it's true.


  • #444
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    SuperInfinity wrote: »
    Oh please!

    Get real. I believe she led him on, he was drunk out of his mind and then she went and made a big incident out of it.

    She's playing to the media, parroting away lines like she will have to live with it forever, is she MAD?! It's HIS life that is ruined.

    Give me a break. :mad:
    He was convicted by a jury and a judge who has a lot more experience in cases of a sexual nature than you accused him of lying consistently

    He was caught partially on CCTV and was caught lying about his actions when his account was the opposite of what was actually captured on CCTV.

    You are very naive.

    He was not drunk(CCTV Footage showed him quite aware and coherent).....she however was unconscious in the CCTV footage. He was caught carrying her ...he literally had to DRAG her to where the assault took place.

    If you believe in Justice and due process and the law than this man has been found guilty.

    If you believe in the ridiculous regressive type of common gossip law verdict of 'IN MY OPINION' you are missing the point.

    This is one instance where your opinion does not count. He is convicted by law.

    Legally he is a sex offender....he was tried and convicted using a precise methodology to ascertain factual TRUTH rather than bi partisan opinion.

    Facts where analysed and argued and criticised.

    He was given a fair hearing and he was also given a defense.

    He was convicted as a sex offender.
    And this is considered a safer procedure than

    He was convicted as a sex offender.

    Yes his life is ruined ...i am sure emotionally he is distraught.......as is she.....beyond what he can comprehend most likely ...beyond what that community can comprehend most obviously.

    No good can be ascertained from this ....except for justice and that was what the law is about ...not revenge not opinion...but justice due process and the law.

    By the LAW he is a sex offender.
    It is not the victim who now says he is a sex offender.
    The LAW says he is a sex offender..by the LAW that was what he was found to be.

    The law obviously does not have to alter your personal opinion. ..whatever it is based on....
    The law represents us all. It presents our rights ....even his ..to disrespect it is to malign YOUR OWN RIGHTS
    But Law is more fine than the opinion of most people....it insists on basing things on sustainable facts and peer critiqued arguemental logic rather than biased personal opinion such as yours ....AND THANK GOD FOR THAT.

    The defendant was convicted.The perjured himself in a court of law. His account of what happened did not match CCTV footage.

    The victim was vindicated in a court of law and her account was found to be true and just.

    And the law although it does not have to alter it is beyond personal opinion.

    Your opinion of her is incorrect. SHE was the just party. SHE WAS FOUND TO BE SO IN A COURT AFTER HE WAS GIVEN A FAIR TRIAL.

    However Listowel ..is NOT on trial...and neither are the people who were outside the courtroom...they may be not very nice...but there you go
    I hope that despite what happens the victim walks around Listowel she feels she can hold her head high knowing that she was found by a court to be the honest party. And she was found to be the one whose account fit the facts.

    It is not Listowel or the mans family or friend that are on trial...only him..BUT i do think that Listowel and his family would best serve this man and his future by helping him come to terms with his guilt and insisting on justice rather than the reaction that has come about. It is actually more damaging to him in the long term what they have done. Not just for his 'IMAGE' but for any hope for his personal redemption. A person must admit guilt before they can redeem themselves. And the kindest and most just thing that could be done for this man is to encourage his redemption and rehabilitation...he needs to acknowledge guilt for that ...and actions such as these damage his chances. He is still human...not an animal...nor a devil....if any goodness in him is to count for anything....then the best thing for him is to seek redemption...it could be he will never achieve it in his lifetime....but it is the way for any good previous actions and character in him still manage to be apart of him....for him to regret beyond words what he did and was found guilty of in court and come to terms with is guilt and feel deepest sorrow for it and express it. OR appeal his conviction IN COURT!

    Listowel is not on trial...and trial by media is no trial ...that is WHY we have courts...it is a lynch mob....the victim is not to be put to the judgement of the public...she has been found to be true ...and him to be guilty...

    Listowel is now complaining about the same thing that some of its residents did outside that court....regressive trial by personal bias.

    Both are pointless and unintelligent and they have nothing to do with justice or goodness.

    The victim has won ...she is vindicated and congratulations to her...she has been very brave...

    You know there was a victory here ..in amongst all this that people seem to be forgetting
    SHE WON!!!!! SHE DID IT!!!

    I bet it was hard but she WON! Well done to her...

    Now here is MY BIASED opinion...who cares what those gob****es think or do or how they act gob****es don't know any better ...its not their fault sometimes ..they are gob****es...and who cares what someone with a gob full of ****e says of thinks?.NO ONE ...SHE WON!! IN A COURT !!
    Yes it was uncooth ungracious and unintelligent behavouir ...but they were not on trial..and trial by media in this extreme for their actions subsequent the trial should be balanced and understanding ..otherwise it is as low as their regressive mindset....

    I would like to congratulate the victim on her victory offer my compassion and respect for her very balanced comments in the media about the people in the town and the church following what happened...she offered a lot more compassion and balance and dignity than they showed. And a court of law found her to be the character representing the side of justice.

    SHE FOUGHT ..AND SHE WON!
    YAY!

    JUSTICE SERVED!!!:)


  • #445
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    A quiet one wrote: »
    I have two more questions;
    3) Was the sex attacker's current girlfriend going out with him at the time?

    I ask because she insists he had done nothing wrong. If he was single at the time and she believes the 'rendezvous' was consensual, then fine, but if she was going out with him at the time, then is that level of tolerance typical for a Kerry lass these days?

    why do you think ONE person might be representative of all women in kerry?

    she has already shown herself have extremely questionable morals and social conscience.


  • #446
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No it can't influence the sentencing but he could have found each and everyone of them to be in contempt of court.


    No, he couldn't have. It is being discussed at the moment over on legal discussion.


  • #447
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No it can't influence the sentencing but he could have found each and everyone of them to be in contempt of court.

    Whats that charge - mens rea - actus reus


  • #448
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I live in a small village in the middle of Ireland and tbh I could see the exact same thing happening here. In rural communites, people don't care if you're guilty or innocent, it's all about social standing.

    I'm picturing the guy in our village who I would say has the biggest social standing: a guy who plays for the county team, (gaa is everything in rural areas). If he was charged with assaulting a girl, there's no doubt in my mind half the village would stand behind him.

    That's the way rural areas operate, it's terrible, but it's true.

    Maybe some fools are like that in some rural areas, but its the exception rather than the rule!


  • #449
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    sam34 wrote: »
    why do you think ONE person might be representative of all women in kerry?

    she has already shown herself have extremely questionable morals and social conscience.
    why do you think ONE person might be representative of all women in kerry?

    Though we may all claim to have a "personal" opinion of something, it will often have outside influences. If there is a culture of thinking that goes in a particular direction then the thinking put forward by one person in that community might well be representative of communally held values reflecting that particular philosophy.

    Having read elsewhere that she had being going out with him at the time, I found that her manner of confident assertions that he had done nothing wrong suggested she was reflecting a general attitude.
    she has already shown herself have extremely questionable morals and social conscience

    Had I read anything to really support that contention, I might well have being minded to qualify my question by adding:

    .."or is she just a bit loopy?"


  • #450
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    Originally Posted by midlandsmissus
    I live in a small village in the middle of Ireland and tbh I could see the exact same thing happening here. In rural communites, people don't care if you're guilty or innocent, it's all about social standing.

    It takes me back to my school days (in Ireland) where unlike many schools of the time
    (late 70's) we had sex education. Despite some enviable legislation recognising
    the value of women, in reality they were 2nd class citizens. Indeed, interestingly enough, the more crafted the legislation the more it reflected it's opposite reality, but that's another matter.

    One day we were discussing marriage and irrespective of my own views the general consensus was that marriage was to have children.
    That led to the question as to whether childlessness after say, 5 years, was
    automatic grounds for divorce. Again, somewhat divorced from reality (in my
    opinion), the general consensus was "yes.. send her back home".

    That lead to the question as to the women's entitlements from the split. Several voices
    suggested that she was entitled to no more than the suitcase she had arrived
    with.
    "Fair enough",(or words to that effect) commented the marriage counsellor and proceeded to put it to a vote.

    Out of the 83 or so 16-18 years old males (no females present) only
    about 5 opposed the motion ("to send her back with just the clothes on her
    back"). At this point, the counsellor asked what if the cause of the
    childlessness was male infertility. At that, the majority hurled a torrent
    of verbal abuse at him and many walked out in protest at what they saw as
    sacrilegious blasphemy, I.e. that men were 'possibly' not perfect.

    So I find it heartening to see the police acting as well as they did in this case, and that a jury were able to see the truth.

    As for the ones who lined up to shake his hands, well, .... back then, in that room full of classmates, when the hands were going up all around me saying the woman should be sent back with just the clothes on her back that she had arrived with, I was horrified.
    It was a long, long time ago, but I've never gotten over the shock of it because these guys were my fellow class mates and I thought I knew them, but found that morning that I didn't know them at all.
    I can't actually describe that sense of shock of realisation.


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  • #451
    A quiet one
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭A quiet one


    Originally Posted by Thaedydal
    No it can't influence the sentencing ...

    (in answer to my question: 4a) If he did, might that have influenced the judge's sentencing?)

    I'd like to understand this a bit better.

    4b) how many others were involved in deciding on sentencing?

    4c) Who else, (apart from the judge) would have known what the sentence would be prior to the judge officially declaring it in court at sentencing?

    In other words what is to stop a judge from arriving on the bench and thinking, "Oh sod it, on second thoughts, I'll throw the book at him"
    This being a moot point if, as your other answer implies, the judge was unaware of the all star line-up.


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