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New Children's Hospital at Mater site

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16 Cormac Rabbitt


    BostonB wrote: »
    Apart from these vague soundbites. Are there any hard stats on staff and non staff using public transport vs cars across all the hospital broken down by location

    You are missing a central point. The transport issues are not about public transport vs roads (which also provides mega public transport) it is about each being optimised.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    You are missing the point is that there is no stats, research to form an opinion.

    Regardless where you think it should be. Its incredible they would decide on any massive project with national importance, based on almost no credible research into it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Imagine a shop, that is set to suit the needs of the staff commute rather than the customers using it. Is that really the best argument for the Mater site?

    There probably isn't any money to do build it at all now is there? Will a reduction in budget change anything, like the building costs?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    Imagine a shop, that is set to suit the needs of the staff commute rather than the customers using it. Is that really the best argument for the Mater site?

    Talking about my posts? Who said anything about best arguments? Somebody talked nonsence about staff, and I replied.

    In any case, it's not a shop. It's quite different. There's far more staff vs "customers" than there would be in a shop. The staff matter more too, happy staff with shorter commutes can help lead to better care.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    When I grew up in Mayo, myself and my sister travailed up to Dublin more than a few times to hospitals, both by car and by train. The train was always much more preferable. As a child it gave use far more comfort and freedom. You can interact with each other, move around, you have toilets on board, and you can use the tables on trains to do a lot more than you can in the car.

    Of course, trains don't suit some sick children. Our problems turned out to be fairly minor in the greater scheme of things, but that's the case for many children who need to travel up to Dublin.



    My child has kidney disease and he has attended Crumlin regularly since he was a baby.We are in Kerry and public transport is simply not something we can use, even to go for check ups,because of the risk of infection from other people.

    It is a long enough trek through Dublin traffic to get there as it is, never mind having to get to the Mater with a very sick child in the back seat.

    Any parents we have spoken to while staying in crumlin that travel up from the country feel the same way.

    We have the chance to build one of the worlds best hospitals with some of the best doctors and nurses from Crumlin and Temple st. Lets make sure were not looking back in 15 years time and wondering why we built it in the middle of an inaccesable city site, just to keep Bertie and hes cronies who he made promises to locate it at the mater happy.

    The mater site is not the place to build this hospital.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    As I said: trains don't suit some sick children.

    The board of Crumlin -- as their top two points -- put tri-location as an "ideal solution" and co-location with a maternity hospital as "essential". You're not going to get any of those at a green field site. I'm sorry, those are just not going to happen any time in the next 10-20 years.

    Anyway, what I read in the Sunday Business Post, the important thing now is getting it built as soon as possible rather than dragging it on and on. It seems to be a good excuse at the moment for the Government to keep dragging it on, and on, and on.

    Nevertheless, on car access:
    • About 3km away there's the end of a motorway, the M1 / the Port Tunnel
    • Or 3.6km over ground is the M1
    • Dual carriage way on the N2 ends just about 1.5km
    • It's less than 2km from the N4 / the quays

    Parking is being planned for, and parents should be fighting to make sure a large percentage of those spaces are for the parents of patients, more so for acute and critical patients. Or, if needed, parents should be fights to get more spaces provided.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16 Cormac Rabbitt


    monument wrote: »
    As I said: trains don't suit some sick children.

    The board of Crumlin -- as their top two points -- put tri-location as an "ideal solution" and co-location with a maternity hospital as "essential". You're not going to get any of those at a green field site. I'm sorry, those are just not going to happen any time in the next 10-20 years.

    Anyway, what I read in the Sunday Business Post, the important thing now is getting it built as soon as possible rather than dragging it on and on. It seems to be a good excuse at the moment for the Government to keep dragging it on, and on, and on.

    Nevertheless, on car access:
    • About 3km away there's the end of a motorway, the M1 / the Port Tunnel
    • Or 3.6km over ground is the M1
    • Dual carriage way on the N2 ends just about 1.5km
    • It's less than 2km from the N4 / the quays

    Parking is being planned for, and parents should be fighting to make sure a large percentage of those spaces are for the parents of patients, more so for acute and critical patients. Or, if needed, parents should be fights to get more spaces provided.

    Dundalk & Drogheda are relatively close to Dublin by car, whereas the populations centres of Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Limerick, Galway & Sligo and also all the towns between the foregoing and Dublin are all much better catered for by a location between St. James's Hospital and Heuston Station (Westgate) or at the M50/N7 Redcow junction. So from a National aspect your arguments amount to nothing.

    Crumlin's top two points for tri-location could be catered for at Westgate. The Dargan sugestion shows over 156,000 square metres, whereas just over 112,000 square metres are shown for the Mater Children's Hospital with another 25,000 square metres for a new maternity hospital there.

    Is it not worth considering the Dargan Locations 1 & 2, which are between Crumlin, Coombe, Rotunda & Temple Street Hospitals that are planned to relocate.

    As regards planning and time; should the Government declare Westgate as special planning zone, etc?

    Could we not use the template used to design, procure and build the IFSC in record time (when the country was also broke) - see Pages 8 & 9 on hyperlink: Role of Government...


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Cormac, with respect:

    The chances of getting the Children's Hospital built any time soon at any location is low. And the chances of getting the Metro North and/or Dart Underground built is even lower. But the chances of getting the Dargan Project built is currently next to zero.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    That at least I agree with. Theres no money to build anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16 Cormac Rabbitt


    Dundalk & Drogheda are relatively close to Dublin by car, whereas the populations centres of Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Tralee, Limerick, Galway & Sligo and also all the towns between the foregoing and Dublin are all much better catered for by a location between St. James's Hospital and Heuston Station (Westgate) or at the M50/N7 Redcow junction. So from a National aspect your arguments amount to nothing.

    Crumlin's top two points for tri-location could be catered for at Westgate. The Dargan sugestion shows over 156,000 square metres, whereas just over 112,000 square metres are shown for the Mater Children's Hospital with another 25,000 square metres for a new maternity hospital there.

    Is it not worth considering the Dargan Locations 1 & 2, which are between Crumlin, Coombe, Rotunda & Temple Street Hospitals that are planned to relocate.

    As regards planning and time; should the Government declare Westgate as special planning zone, etc?

    Could we not use the template used to design, procure and build the IFSC in record time (when the country was also broke) - see Pages 8 & 9 on hyperlink: Role of Government...

    Sunday Times today - Children's Hospital fast-track approval.
    WELL DONE GOVERNMENT :)

    A green-field site will save over six months and possibly a year in construction time - where a) the contractor has full control of the site and can use better construction machinery for a faster build time and lower costs, etc, and b) where the hospital's structure height is lowered, for example, 8 floors instead of the 16 proposed at the Mater site (see page 4 on hyperlink: Children's Hospital).

    An additional six months to a year could be saved by using the IFSC procurement template, which basically starts with a design-build consortium to make the planning application.

    The above is not rocket science. Using the IFSC template will also achieve much better architecture and lower build costs as the IFSC did.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    National Paediatric Hospital Independent Review covers access and other issues...

    On access it says:
    Access, travel times, and the question of accessibility for the community of greater Dublin, and for those beyond greater Dublin, remain a concern for many of the stakeholders who presented to the review team. These issues have been the source of many submissions and protests to the Minister and to the media.

    Comprehensive travel studies have been provided by the NPHDB consultant team. The panel was made aware that a comprehensive Traffic Impact Assessment has been submitted to, and negotiated in detail with, Dublin City Council as part of the planning consultation for the new development. These have reassured the Clinical Review Team. The studies appear to be thorough, well tested and statistically reliable, and they have taken into account the ‘worst case scenario’ – the possibility that the Metro North station will not be developed on the site.

    There are also a several background issues which were thought worthy of consideration in the current debate:

    Emergency: there is already significant emergency paediatric traffic in Dublin’s city centre. The busiest children’s emergency department in the city – the CUH at Temple Street - is situated 400 metres from the proposed development at Eccles Street. No information which we have received or presentation we have attended has identified that access to Temple Street is of major concern. CUH Temple Street currently deals with 45 000 attendances per year. The proposed volume of activity at the new NPH on opening will be around 65 000 attendances per year ie an increase of 45% on existing levels.
    Parking: there is virtually no parking on the CUH Temple Street site. There will be 736 patient parking spaces in the NPH development, which will be secure and safe with direct lift access to the main foyer and the emergency department. A significant proportion of these will be dedicated for emergency patients.

    Travel management: The traffic studies looked at journey times for emergency patients from inside and outside the Dublin conurbation using the M50 and established the travel times along the major radial routes from the orbital motorway to the Eccles Street site at various times of the day. They identified, not surprisingly, that the longest journey times are in the morning peak period. The majority of paediatric attendances at emergency departments take place between 12.00 and 20.00, when the journey times are at their shortest.

    Elective care: The OCSC Travel Time survey report identifies that elective care is, by its definition, planned and that tertiary attendances from ouside the Dublin conurbation can be planned to make effective use of the highway networks.

    The availability of good public transport is a strong positive for the Mater site. One of the laudable successes of the existing Mater Hospital has been to increase staff use of public transport to 70% for journeys to work by means of Mobility Management Planning. It is important in the wider context of Europe-wide carbon reduction targets that the NPH is not planned around over-reliance on private car transport for staff travel. Furthermore, for parents who are staying at the hospital with their children for significant periods of time, the ability to access the city centre for brief periods of time on public transport is an advantage.

    Access is less of an issue for parents than appropriate and high quality care. Currently parents can and do travel across the globe to access care for their children.

    The provision in Ireland of a first class facility that unites expertise and develops local care is by far the most important factor for this group.
    There has also been comprehensive planning and coordination with local councils and ambulance services.

    An on issue of expansion it says:
    There are general concerns (very acute for some groups) about the expansion / future proofing options given the choice of the inner city Eccles Street site, with little current land for expansion once the only remaining building footprint is committed to the Rotunda Maternity Hospital for tri-location with the adult and paediatric hospitals.

    The NPH Development Board has planned expansion space within the facility envelope, but this is not widely known nor understood. More importantly, the Temple Street facility will remain committed to health care service use once the Children’s Hospital moves. This was confirmed by the Temple Street Board.
    It would be advantageous to have a ‘master planning’ process for the Temple Street site with a view to having the site committed to children’s health care and having a binding understanding with the Temple Street site owners. Being able to speak to this availability more explicity would allay some concerns. Beginning the dialogue with the hospital and clinical community now will be an important part of long term strategies.

    On design:
    The Clinical Review Team supports the overall design proposed for the NPH on the Mater site. However, a number of concerns about elements of the existing design were raised by clinicians during our interviews. As a result, and in line with established practice, we would recommend a focussed review of some elements of the planned facility; namely:
    • Emergency department design
    • Radiology adjacencies
    • Patient flows (particularly to operating theatres and the paediatric intensive care unit)
    • The vertical alignments and associations of the usual ‘hot floor’ elements.

    Design development should at the earliest opportunity test the plans against patient journeys to ensure the facility is child focussed and operationally efficient. A wide range of clinician representatives should be involved in this work, and it would be beneficial to have greater clinical representation on the development board.

    As a general point, the design of every department in the new NPH should be of a comparable standard, or preferably superior to, any current facilities for children in Dublin.


    This is also interesting...
    Parents and Care Givers
    The review team heard from a group of parents and care givers, representing a coalition of around 40 disease-specific support groups.

    This coalition of parents is passionate and committed to the NPH project, and they clearly want to see early progression on the current selected site. They spoke positively about their engagement at all stages of the planning process and expressed grave concerns regarding any delay that may be consequent on decisions taken as a result of the independent review. The parents expressed disappointment at the division within the clinical community and institutional leadership regarding the progression of the NPH project. They suggested that there remained (sadly) an inappropriate weighting on an individual institution’s welfare rather than a genuine priority for the child and the future of child health.

    The parents also pointed out – from their own experience – the poor state of the current children’s hospital facilities and the woeful nature of parent and patient accommodation in children’s hospitals. They expressed their concern that any delay in this development in improving the physical environment in which children are cared for, would unnecessarily place children at risk of serious harm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I have no idea what travel survey this refers to and you've posted no links. From where did you drag this up from?

    It doesn't answer any specifics, but is typically vague as usual.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    I have no idea what travel survey this refers to and you've posted no links. From where did you drag this up from?

    National Paediatric Hospital Independent Review
    http://www.dohc.ie/publications/paediatric_hospital_review.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭eia340600


    New website put up with the plans @ http://www.newchildrenshospitalplanningapplication.ie/#volume_4

    The plans definitely seem impressive, with exception to the previously hidden north elevation and the slightly confused emergency department.

    From the plans it looks like it will be the tallest building in Dublin at over 77m.Even if the board were to try to chop off some floors, it would remain tall.Though, any attempt to lower the height would result in 49 beds lost per floor.Far too many to even consider.There is some slack where the 9th floor could be chopped as it houses the hospital school and sensory rooms which some might argue aren't entirely necessary. However, these are some of the features that would stand to separate it from other hospitals and make it truly "world class".


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I really like it. I, personally, have no problem with the height either... it's not exactly blocking much of a view in that area tbh.

    Build up, not out! :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Looking at the demolition plan, when are all the bits of the Mater that need to be wiped going to be moved to their new locations? Looks like the existing radiology department, part of outpatients and A&E and a fair few other areas are goners.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Looks like Rosary House, Radiology, Opthomology, Outpatients, A&E, Cardiology, Auditorium, Canteen, Hear/Lung GI and all the nasty link corridors.

    I hope they do something about the outside of the hideous main wards building too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭eia340600


    I presume all the buildings to be demolished will be housed in the extension currently being built there.The development is to open in spring of next year.http://www.mchd.ie/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Theres pretty much no hard information on access in that. Its even more vague than the original reports. Ditto expansion. If it was dragons den it would be laughed out of the room.
    Currently parents can and do travel across the globe to access care for their children.

    Isn't the point they shouldn't have too? Also because some is forced to travel to get treatment doesn't not mean this is an easy place to access. Its completely irreverent. Its condescending in the extreme.

    At this point, its obviously pointless discussing it. Its going ahead regardless. I'm just staggered how little research was done on this site, and how it was railroaded. At this point its getting a little irrelevant discussing the site. Theres much bigger issues with the HSE and the hospitals now, the problems with the site pale in comparison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭uncanny




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    uncanny wrote: »

    Why is it a bad decision, there are probably better locations withing Dublin city for this - let alone greenfields sites across the county or country.

    The only bit that I finds strange is the reasons for the rejection/not building of the heilpad:
    Plans to build a helipad on the roof of the proposed new hospital had to be scrapped because it would be unusable during high winds.

    There are far higher buildings in New York that have helipads, I'd love to know where the rationalization that this one would be unsafe came from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,238 ✭✭✭markpb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Why is it a bad decision, there are probably better locations withing Dublin city for this - let alone greenfields sites across the county or country.

    That's not a matter for ABP and it's not why they rejected it.
    The only bit that I finds strange is the reasons for the rejection/not building of the heilpad. There are far higher buildings in New York that have helipads, I'd love to know where the rationalization that this one would be unsafe came from.

    They didn't say anything about the height - wind conditions are caused by the surrounding landscape, not the height.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    markpb wrote: »
    That's not a matter for ABP and it's not why they rejected it.

    True, and that's just my opinion. I'm curious though as to the posters reasons for thinking it's a bad decision.
    markpb wrote: »
    They didn't say anything about the height - wind conditions are caused by the surrounding landscape, not the height.

    Yeah, it's not clear from the report who stopped that bit, the hospital or planners but the point stands. The proposal is for a 16 storey building, which would make it considerably higher than anything else in the area, and also the surrounding landscape.


  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭The Tyre Dude


    Great news, but will it be the end of this sorry saga?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Well a tallaght or blanchardstown site could be found with good transport links ,there was even a builder who offered a site free to hse.
    THIS eccles st site is another fianna fail con job/shambles.IF you have to dig a large hole in the ground to provide parking for a hospital ,then you are on the wrong site.International experts say a childrens hospital should have green spaces ,loads of space for parents accomodation ,easy acess , The present site is a traffic blackspot with very limited parking.
    IT was chosen to give extra jobs in the area ,ie for political reasons ,the only plus point is its near other hospitals which can provide extra specialist medical
    help and expertise.
    ON match days in croke park ,many nearby roads are
    closed ,which limits acess.
    AT the moment land ,sites in dublin are cheaper than 2005,building costs are lower.They could start from scratch on another site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭jd


    riclad wrote: »
    ... experts say a childrens hospital should have green spaces ,loads of space for parents accomodation ,easy acess , T

    ...,the only plus point is its near other hospitals which can provide extra specialist medical
    help and expertise.
    .

    Colocation (access to specialist services) is more important than green space according to the experts. A stand alone green field site would not be the best outcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    jd wrote: »
    Colocation (access to specialist services) is more important than green space according to the experts. A stand alone green field site would not be the best outcome.

    If theres no problem with access to the mater site, then theres no problem with with not being co located. ;) . Also colocation assumes theres common areas of expertise and that the mater doesn't send people out to other hospitals, (for example beaumount) already. I think that neither was the case when I looked at experts comments on it previously.

    That said I read so many contradictory expert opinions, that I dunno what to believe anymore, I'm too jaded to read it all again. I'm a regular visitor to these hosptials and I hate the location. I think some people look at it as city hospital not a national one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    jd wrote: »
    Colocation (access to specialist services) is more important than green space according to the experts. A stand alone green field site would not be the best outcome.
    What specialist services will the Mater offer that the three children's hospitals don't have already?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Location isn't the problem, its the lazy design or more importantly over-design. You have to wonder why they decided to plonk a cruise ship on the roof.

    Correct and brave decision by ABP.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    It's always an amazing co-incidence when consultant reports tell you exactly what you want them to tell you.

    The decision by An Bord Pleanala is a major win for common sense. The decision to built there was a travesty of planning, as seems way to normal in this country.

    Anyone with basic knowledge of commuter patterns and traffic congestion within Dublin city can see that.

    If you're going to build a central hospital of the size intended for access by the whole country it needs:
    • Co-location
    • Commuter Access
    • Car Access

    All of these need to be in place ahead of opening, not some promise to build them (as was the case with Metro North).

    Tallaght hospital should be able to meet those needs provided extra car parking is built and surrounding roads are upgraded. Proper planning would stipulate this in advance. Plenty of low rise low quality warehousing adjacent to hospital which could be purchased for extending the campus. The Luas is already outside.


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