Govt 're-hires dozens of retired civil servants

femur61 · 14-05-2012 7:25am #1

Would this happen in other countries or are we just a gullable nation who are a bunch of pushovers? http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-re-hires-dozens-of-retired-civil-servants-551312.html. The PS/CS say they can't endure any more cuts but it seems to me compared to Greece we haven't really endured austerity.

The governement hadn't the foresight to see a void occuring in that all the good people would leave and some departments would be short staffed.

A friend of mine who was unemployed for some time has been hired by a large American employer, he works from 8 in the morning till 9 at night - if he doesn't perform he said he'd be shown the door. I know this has nothing to do with thread but just shows how the private sector works with no deficit.

deise blue · 14-05-2012 8:01am

femur61 wrote: »

Would this happen in other countries or are we just a gullable nation who are a bunch of pushovers? http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-re-hires-dozens-of-retired-civil-servants-551312.html. The PS/CS say they can't endure any more cuts but it seems to me compared to Greece we haven't really endured austerity.

The governement hadn't the foresight to see a void occuring in that all the good people would leave and some departments would be short staffed.

A friend of mine who was unemployed for some time has been hired by a large American employer, he works from 8 in the morning till 9 at night - if he doesn't perform he said he'd be shown the door. I know this has nothing to do with thread but just shows how the private sector works with no deficit.

If that's the way the Private Sector works these days then I'm glad to be out of it.
A 13 hour day ( including breaks presumably ? ) is barbaric & an abuse of the Organisation of working time act 1997 - this appalling employer should be reported immediately.
The Government as the employer certainly got things wrong in terms of people having to be rehired but in fairness given the fact tha t voluntary redundancies had to be offered across the entire PS sector then this was always going to happen.

Dirk Gently · 14-05-2012 8:44am

deise blue wrote: »

If that's the way the Private Sector works these days then I'm glad to be out of it.
A 13 hour day ( excluding breaks ) is barbaric & an abuse of the Organisation of working time act 1997 - this appalling employer should be reported immediately.
The Government as the employer certainly got things wrong in terms of people having to be rehired but in fairness given the fact tha t voluntary redundancies had to be offered across the entire PS sector then this was always going to happen.

I hope no one tells you about unpaid extra hours, performing random duties and cronic understaffing, not knowing what days you'll work one week to the next or even what time you'll finish at each day until you're actually finished.

The thing is though, you cant report an employer as handy when your private sector and the employer himself doesn't have access to low interest loans paid for by the tax payer to keep him afloat. It's all too easy to end up sacked or replaced with a free intern (thanks government).

If they took early retirement they should have stood aside and let some poor private sector cannon fodder take up the chance of a decent secure job.

superluck · 14-05-2012 9:26am

....are we just a gullable nation who are a bunch of pushovers?

Yes and yes.

asdf1234 · 14-05-2012 9:32am

What austerity did you endure today, femur61?

bobbysands81 · 14-05-2012 9:42am

Another generic whinge filled meaningless public sector bashing thread with a ridiculous side story of "how tough my friend has it" in the private sector... you even threw Greece into the mix - nice!

A neighbour of mine retired from a major bank recently, got great lump sum, pension etc..., he's now back working for them on a consultancy basis, I must remember to burn him at the stake next time I see him. I genuinely had no idea this practice was so evil.

Always amazes me that folk like you never seem to have a problem with the folk in society who had 'austerity' pass them by with no pay cuts, job losses etc...

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 9:52am

femur61 wrote: »

The PS/CS say they can't endure any more cuts but it seems to me compared to Greece we haven't really endured austerity.

Can you explain this line a bit more for me please, what exactly is it that greece is doing that you think we should aspire to?

Jaysoose · 14-05-2012 9:52am

So a public servant retires early and gets paid a lump sum...then rehired on terms thats basically the same salary as before..and people pointing this out as being a bit of a joke is public servant bashing?

superluck · 14-05-2012 9:56am

bobbysands81 wrote:

A neighbour of mine retired from a major bank recently, got great lump sum, pension etc..., he's now back working for them on a consultancy basis, I must remember to burn him at the stake next time I see him. I genuinely had no idea this practice was so evil.

A lot of skilled people are unemployed right now, would it not make sense to give a job to someone qualified enough and receiving no income?

People who are in receipt of big pensions don't need to be out working, taking money and business away from people that genuinely need it.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 9:56am

Jaysoose wrote: »

So a public servant retires early and gets paid a lump sum...then rehired on terms thats basically the same salary as before..and people pointing this out as being a bit of a joke is public servant bashing?

Without pointing out how common this is in other sectors yeah it is a joke!

The real funny points of the OP though are the silly rally to be the new greece and the stupid comparison about his mate who has to work in some conditions etc etc etc.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 9:59am

superluck wrote: »

A lot of skilled people are unemployed right now, would it not make sense to give a job to someone qualified enough and receiving no income?

People who are in receipt of big pensions don't need to be out working, taking money and business away from people that genuinely need it.

Lack of resources due to reduced numbers in the CS, we dont need people who will take 6 months to get to grips with a position. so sometimes retaining knowledge is the best option.

We all know the governments early retirement scheme was done bad, that isnt a fault of the public servants being rehired though.

Silvio.Dante · 14-05-2012 9:59am

As a low paid Civil Servant, it sickens me to see these retirees coming back as 'Consultants'...

superluck · 14-05-2012 10:00am

Yeah...it's not like Ireland is being kept on life support by the IMF.

We can afford to pay 100k to someone for doing nothing, stop complaining will ya.

So many begrudgers in Ireland, it's unbelievable, i'm entitled to 100k myself.

wes · 14-05-2012 10:12am

femur61 wrote: »

A friend of mine who was unemployed for some time has been hired by a large American employer, he works from 8 in the morning till 9 at night - if he doesn't perform he said he'd be shown the door. I know this has nothing to do with thread but just shows how the private sector works with no deficit.

The interesitng thing about that, is that way of working is actually more inefficent than someone who works 9 to 5:30. People only have so many productive hours in them per day, and chronically over working them to that degree is actually less efficent. Not only is is less efficent for the company, it also effects the health of the employee, and there family life. So not only is the company losing money due to over tired employees, they are negatively effecting there health, for no benefit at all.

Jaysoose · 14-05-2012 10:14am

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Without pointing out how common this is in other sectors yeah it is a joke!

The real funny points of the OP though are the silly rally to be the new greece and the stupid comparison about his mate who has to work in some conditions etc etc etc.

What do other sectors have to do with this practice in the public sector?

The op does verge into the annoying world of "i know a guy that has to walk to work with no shoes, weres my nama" ..cant argue with that but the central point about the rehires is valid.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 11:03am

Jaysoose wrote: »

What do other sectors have to do with this practice in the public sector?
.

We have to compare with something, or can you suggest how we say this is right or wrong without comparing to something else?

Jaysoose wrote: »

The op does verge into the annoying world of "i know a guy that has to walk to work with no shoes, weres my nama" ..cant argue with that but the central point about the rehires is valid.

I agree an incentivised retirement scheme where you have to rehire retiring staff is stupid and it shows how the government rather than give enough time to analyse the effects reacted to the medias call for cuts in a bad way.

bobbysands81 · 14-05-2012 11:48am

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I agree an incentivised retirement scheme where you have to rehire retiring staff is stupid and it shows how the government rather than give enough time to analyse the effects reacted to the medias call for cuts in a bad way.

100% spot on, an essential point in this argument.

Politicians mess up again but hey folks let's side step that and instead tar 300,000 workers with the same brush and use it as an excuse for more inane bashing.

Jaysoose · 14-05-2012 1:12pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% spot on, an essential point in this argument.

Politicians mess up again but hey folks let's side step that and instead tar 300,000 workers with the same brush and use it as an excuse for more inane bashing.

I think your being oversensitive on this one, the politicians are taking advice from within the public service and this approach would surely have been agreed by the unions. To say its the politicians themselves that have engineered this situation is disengenuous as the information would have had to be collated from within the organisation itself.

I would have thought that department heads/managers would have had to be consulted before this process was engaged as this would affect the amount of staff/quality of service or work that a particular department could produce.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 1:33pm

Jaysoose wrote: »

I think your being oversensitive on this one, the politicians are taking advice from within the public service and this approach would surely have been agreed by the unions. To say its the politicians themselves that have engineered this situation is disengenuous as the information would have had to be collated from within the organisation itself.

I would have thought that department heads/managers would have had to be consulted before this process was engaged as this would affect the amount of staff/quality of service or work that a particular department could produce.

We dont know what advice was sought and what advice was given.

Also from the article we dont know what the scale of the rehiring is.
I mean what amount is "dozens of retired senior civil servants"?
With a workforce of 400,000 and an early retirement scheme surely there has to be some temporary rehiring expected to in the short term fill loss of specialised skills/knowledge.

Thoie · 14-05-2012 2:30pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

We dont know what advice was sought and what advice was given.

Also from the article we dont know what the scale of the rehiring is.
I mean what amount is "dozens of retired senior civil servants"?
With a workforce of 400,000 and an early retirement scheme surely there has to be some temporary rehiring expected to in the short term fill loss of specialised skills/knowledge.

Well, when there are mass voluntary redundancies in the private sector, what normally happens is:

1. People apply for redundancy
2. The company/their managers work out who can best be spared
3. Handover periods are worked out - for example if your role is something that's very time-defined, you might be asked accepted for redundancy, but asked to hang on for 6 months until you finish what you're doing. If someone else needs to learn a particular piece of what you've been doing, you're expected to arrange that training/handover before you leave.
4. Some people will not be accepted for redundancy as their roles are considered vital.
5. Some people may be made redundant, but rehired as contractors on an extremely short term basis (for example, two or three weeks around year end in the case of accountants)

If public servants were given early retirement/redundancy without the associated homework being done by their managers/department leads, then the heads of those teams should get a short, swift kick up the arse.

junk_seller · 14-05-2012 2:35pm

yet another example of the ageism which exists in this country , young well qualified college graduates sit on the dole while retired people in thier fifties and sixties get rehired

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 2:44pm

Thoie wrote: »

Well, when there are mass voluntary redundancies in the private sector, what normally happens is:

1. People apply for redundancy
2. The company/their managers work out who can best be spared
3. Handover periods are worked out - for example if your role is something that's very time-defined, you might be asked accepted for redundancy, but asked to hang on for 6 months until you finish what you're doing. If someone else needs to learn a particular piece of what you've been doing, you're expected to arrange that training/handover before you leave.
4. Some people will not be accepted for redundancy as their roles are considered vital.
5. Some people may be made redundant, but rehired as contractors on an extremely short term basis (for example, two or three weeks around year end in the case of accountants)

If public servants were given early retirement/redundancy without the associated homework being done by their managers/department leads, then the heads of those teams should get a short, swift kick up the arse.

To be fair Thoie that is how a well managed scheme would be run but to say "when there are mass voluntary redundancies in the private sector, what normally happens is:" and then to outline the perfect steps is just delusional.

Are you suggesting that when the private sector does this there are never issues, because I would be of a very different opinion. In fact in a large private organisation i think you would find very similiar precentages being rehired in consultancy roles when they offer incentivised retirement schemes.

caff · 14-05-2012 2:59pm

Thoie wrote: »

Well, when there are mass voluntary redundancies in the private sector, what normally happens is:

1. People apply for redundancy
2. The company/their managers work out who can best be spared
3. Handover periods are worked out - for example if your role is something that's very time-defined, you might be asked accepted for redundancy, but asked to hang on for 6 months until you finish what you're doing. If someone else needs to learn a particular piece of what you've been doing, you're expected to arrange that training/handover before you leave.
4. Some people will not be accepted for redundancy as their roles are considered vital.
5. Some people may be made redundant, but rehired as contractors on an extremely short term basis (for example, two or three weeks around year end in the case of accountants)

If public servants were given early retirement/redundancy without the associated homework being done by their managers/department leads, then the heads of those teams should get a short, swift kick up the arse.

They could have done this but the unions insisted that all civil servants get an equal opportunity to apply for retirement. Even if an aera was short staffed they had to give employees an opportunity to apply. Croke park agreement strikes again!

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 3:11pm

caff wrote: »

They could have done this but the unions insisted that all civil servants get an equal opportunity to apply for retirement. Even if an aera was short staffed they had to give employees an opportunity to apply. Croke park agreement strikes again!

The incentivised retirement schemes were first brought out in 2009 it wasnt until after the 2010 budget and PS pay cuts that there were strikes by PS staff and then after that the CPA.

Dont let facts get in the way of a rant though.

Its bad weather we are having outside isnt it?

Wouldn't have happened but for the CPA!

Jogathon · 14-05-2012 3:16pm

Well, I believe that most of these dozens (which means really a small amount of people ie not hundreds), are secondary teachers teaching Leaving Cert, and they will be finished by the end of June and will not be re-hired then. So just maybe wait and see if there are still re-hirees in August and kick up a stink then?

Thoie · 14-05-2012 3:32pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Are you suggesting that when the private sector does this there are never issues, because I would be of a very different opinion. In fact in a large private organisation i think you would find very similiar precentages being rehired in consultancy roles when they offer incentivised retirement schemes.

I suppose I was thinking of redundancies, rather than early retirement schemes - I don't have any experience of the latter, only the former, where companies are laying people off because they're running out of money fast.

badtinegirl · 14-05-2012 3:45pm

I dont think this is fair. If the work needs doing and it has to be
done by consultants this work by law has to be sent out for tender.
This is just jobs for the boys again. Billy leaves then sets up billy & assoc
and gets given tax payers money / contracts, I have seen this first hand.

If outsourcing is the way of the future for the Public Sevice it has to be done honestly. I know of situations were none tendered professional consultants are tendering work on behalf of Goverment departemnts.

Hiring consultants to manage consultants seems to be all the rage also.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 3:47pm

badtinegirl wrote: »

I dont think this is fair. If the work needs doing and it has to be
done by consultants this work by law has to be sent out for tender.
This is just jobs for the boys again. Billy leaves then sets up billy & assoc
and gets given tax payers money / contracts, I have seen this first hand.

If outsourcing is the way of the future for the Public Sevice it has to be done honestly. I know of situations were none tendered professional consultants are tendering work on behalf of Goverment departemnts.

Hiring consultants to manage consultants seems to be all the rage also.

This is not whats happening at all!

caff · 14-05-2012 3:49pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The incentivised retirement schemes were first brought out in 2009 it wasnt until after the 2010 budget and PS pay cuts that there were strikes by PS staff and then after that the CPA.

Dont let facts get in the way of a rant though.

Its bad weather we are having outside isnt it?

Wouldn't have happened but for the CPA!

Think you misread my post I wrote strikes as in the provision dealing with the retirement scheme were included in the croke park agreement which is at fault not that any strikes were involved.

badtinegirl · 14-05-2012 3:57pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This is not whats happening at all!

Its what happened in the last place I worked before my contract was not renewed.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-05-2012 3:58pm

caff wrote: »

Think you misread my post I wrote strikes as in the provision dealing with the retirement scheme were included in the croke park agreement which is at fault not that any strikes were involved.

I dont think you can blame this on the CPA.

The agreement that these staff retired under was the same as the one in 2009
circular attached http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ122009.pdf

This was prior to the CPA so cant be considered as a product of that agreement.

Govt 're-hires dozens of retired civil servants

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