Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

#12M15M Global Day of Action

24

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    Real Democracy NOW! Everyone’s voice, participation and welfare should be given equal importance in deciding how our society should be run.

    Didn't we have an election last year? We have a referendum on another topic at the end of this month. What's 'real democracy' and how does it differ from the current system?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No we don't the government does not guarantee you a culture or a job but regardless do you actually have any ideas "how" to make things better or is this just a general wishy washy idea that things should be better. Because I know the government gets a lot of flak but from what I can see the way the country runs it self is pretty darn good all things considered. Not perfect but that's human nature for you.

    We have libraries, galleries, museums, the GAA, festivals etc etc culture wise.
    Isn't full employment a worthy goal? Even if it is hard to achieve.

    How to go about it, same as every other change in society, bringing awareness to issues, campaigning for change and all the other methods people use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    It's all so cowardly. Just come out with, we want state controlled institutions to manage our lives for us. We want the state to run schools, healthcare and hospitals, we want high taxes on high income individuals and private enterprise.

    Just call it out, it's socialism they are after. As soon as they can cost a realistic plan to achieve their aims then people might get interested. Otherwise it's just another left wing / socialist pipe dream being sold to students and the disaffected.

    A bit of honesty would be nice. At least reference at some level how this stuff gets paid for and who manages it's delivery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I know you love to define everything and then take it apart. But then fail to reply to questions about your own ideas I note, so not going down that road thanks.
    Its one word in their demands and agree its a bit fuzzy. I wouldn't disregard the whole thing just because one part is unclear. Most of their demands sound pretty libertarian actually.

    BTW I've nothing to do with this group and only know whats been posted here about them but I'm all for people making their voices heard and taking part in democracy instead of leaving it as a vote every four years or so.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    I am pie wrote: »
    It's all so cowardly. Just come out with, we want state controlled institutions to manage our lives for us. We want the state to run schools, healthcare and hospitals, we want high taxes on high income individuals and private enterprise.

    Just call it out, it's socialism they are after. As soon as they can cost a realistic plan to achieve their aims then people might get interested. Otherwise it's just another left wing / socialist pipe dream being sold to students and the disaffected.

    A bit of honesty would be nice. At least reference at some level how this stuff gets paid for and who manages it's delivery.

    Looks like a mixture of left and right wing ideas to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    20Cent wrote: »
    We have libraries, galleries, museums, the GAA, festivals etc etc culture wise.
    Isn't full employment a worthy goal? Even if it is hard to achieve.

    How to go about it, same as every other change in society, bringing awareness to issues, campaigning for change and all the other methods people use.
    Yes we do which is exactly why protesting for these thigns is redundent. I don't think you understand I didn't ask how do you want to raise awarness I was asking what would you actually do to achieve your goals if you had the power to.

    How would you default on our loans then return to the markets? How would you improve hospitals without money? How would you run the schools? How can you increase transperancy while maintaining diplomatic sovereignty? These are the questions movements like yours have to ask but never do. Instead it's jsut a general "rar I have no job and an interest in politics down with the government!" So yeah, you'll excuse me if I'm not marching but I don't really feel like advancing some radicals political career.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    20Cent wrote: »
    How to go about it, same as every other change in society, bringing awareness to issues, campaigning for change and all the other methods people use.
    The problem is that they call for change without any kind of realistic or feasible way of changing it. Often they want change, but they don't know what kind of change they want.

    As it stands, everyone in this country has indiscriminate access to "culture, health care, free education, political participation". There is nothing standing in your way accessing these.

    Could the quality of this access be improved? Sure. But there are no great injustices going on, and protesting isn't going to make things get better any faster than simply exercising your voting power correctly.

    When you protest, you need a specific goal, which is achievable and quantifiable. Equal rights for black people. Suffrage. Equal rights for gays.

    They were lofty goals, but they were specific and achievable. And there was a point where you could say, "There, job done".

    "Total transparency in the governance of the country, zero tolerance to corruption, and prosecution of those responsible for major economic crimes." That's a lofty goal, non-specific, idealogically unachievable (because it demands perfection) and unquantifiable. You can protest till the cows come home and this will never be achieved. Ever. The best you can hope for is gradual systematic reduction of corruption and maximisation of transparency. And for that, you use your vote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Yes we do which is exactly why protesting for these thigns is redundent. I don't think you understand I didn't ask how do you want to raise awarness I was asking what would you actually do to achieve your goals if you had the power to.

    How would you default on our loans then return to the markets? How would you improve hospitals without money? How would you run the schools? How can you increase transperancy while maintaining diplomatic sovereignty? These are the questions movements like yours have to ask but never do. Instead it's jsut a general "rar I have no job and an interest in politics down with the government!" So yeah, you'll excuse me if I'm not marching but I don't really feel like advancing some radicals political career.

    Its not my movement I've nothing to do with it.
    Maybe ask them your questions.
    History is full of people who did things that were considered "impossible".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    20Cent wrote: »
    Its not my movement I've nothing to do with it.
    Maybe ask them your questions.
    History is full of people who did things that were considered "impossible".
    Yes but not under these conditions that's my point. Life is far too comfortable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    20Cent wrote: »
    On the 15th of May 2011, millions of people started a process of social change, sending a clear message that we are not the property of politicians and bankers.

    The political class and the economic powers behind them continue to ignore the message. They continue imposing poverty on the people and putting our lives at risk.

    On the 12th of May, after a year of protest sweeping the globe, the ruling class digs in to maintain its power and wealth, we take back the streets and we demand:

    1. Not a single euro more for bailing out banks. The bankers and speculators caused the crisis - make them pay for it.

    2. Total transparency in the governance of the country, zero tolerance to corruption, and prosecution of those responsible for major economic crimes.

    3. A society that guarantees the following: housing, work, culture, health care, free education, political participation and a fulfilled life. Our political and economic system places these things under attack.

    4. Real Democracy NOW! Everyone’s voice, participation and welfare should be given equal importance in deciding how our society should be run.

    On May 12th people from all over the world will take to the streets and squares. From America to Asia, from Africa to Europe, people are rising up to claim their rights and demand real democracy. Now it is time for all of us to join in a global non-violent protest.

    And

    We are the Irish movement for peaceful action to demand Real Democracy Now! Inspired by the Spanish revolution and Democracia Real Ya!

    We have an open assembly weekly on Tuesdays at 7pm at Seomra Spraoi. Everyone is welcome. For map and directions click here.

    We are ordinary people. We are like you. We are of different ages, nationalities, social backgrounds and political beliefs. We get up every morning to study, to look after our homes, to go to work, or to look for work. We all work hard every day at building a better future for ourselves and for the people around us. But all of us are worried and angry about what is unfolding, politically and economically, in our society.

    We want REAL DEMOCRACY NOW! Not the pretense of democracy that presently exists in Ireland. The present system silences the voices of those who want a meaningful role in shaping our society and concentrates power in the hands of a minority. Our political system does not represent us but instead administers on behalf of unaccountable elites. It is time for us all to start a movement for a better society.


    You posted the above with no link included, no quotation marks, no reference to where you got it from, no context that it wasn't yours, looking like you believed and accepted every word..............
    20Cent wrote: »
    Its not my movement I've nothing to do with it.
    Maybe ask them your questions.
    History is full of people who did things that were considered "impossible".


    ........yet you come along two pages later and deny it. Is your name Peter?

    Seriously, your post gave rise to serious questions from a number of people, why don't you answer them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Jululan


    Just one reason to protest:
    The European Central Bank(they get their funds from our taxes) lends money at 1% interest to private European banks. Our lovely private banks buy State Debt from Ireland(or any other EU country) and they get a 5% interest(paid by our taxes). And even our Government inject money to these banks.
    I would prefer my taxes spent in education, public transport, public health...

    I find very interesting the lack of social mobilization in Ireland. Maybe a subject for my PhD...
    If you don't complaint, societies don't evolve.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Jululan wrote: »
    Just one reason to protest:
    The European Central Bank(they get their funds from our taxes) lends money at 1% interest to private European banks. Our lovely private banks buy State Debt from Ireland(or any other EU country) and they get a 5% interest(paid by our taxes). And even our Government inject money to these banks.
    I would prefer my taxes spent in education, public transport, public health...

    I find very interesting the lack of social mobilization in Ireland. Maybe a subject for my PhD...
    If you don't complaint, societies don't evolve.

    People do complain, just not on the streets.

    Obviously a good few people in the country are still happy with their lot too and don't feel the need to complain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Godge wrote: »
    You posted the above with no link included, no quotation marks, no reference to where you got it from, no context that it wasn't yours, looking like you believed and accepted every word..............

    The op had links someone else said they were on a phone and couldn't see them so I helpfully pasted the content,thought it was obvious apologies for confusion.
    Godge wrote: »

    ......yet you come along two pages later and deny it. Is your name Peter?

    Seriously, your post gave rise to serious questions from a number of people, why don't you answer them?

    Is my name Peter !!!
    Don't see any serious questions that require answering just the usual gut reaction against fellow citizens exercising their democratic rights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    20Cent wrote: »
    The op had links someone else said they were on a phone and couldn't see them so I helpfully pasted the content,thought it was obvious apologies for confusion.


    Is my name Peter !!!
    Don't see any serious questions that require answering just the usual gut reaction against fellow citizens exercising their democratic rights.


    Fair enough but you didn't make that clear in your original post. For most of this thread you were defending the protests. At the last minute you denied you had anything to do with them. Sounds like Peter in the Garden.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    20Cent wrote: »

    3. A society that guarantees the following: housing, work, culture, health care, free education, political participation and a fulfilled life. Our political and economic system places these things under attack.
    .

    I can only have a fulfilled life if I have an Audi S5 sitting in my garage, a yacht, Pamella Anderson sitting on my knee and Mary Harney on a treadmill running at 12kph for my sexual gratification, so....how are you going to guarantee that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Jululan


    jank wrote: »
    I can only have a fulfilled life if I have an Audi S5 sitting in my garage, a yacht, Pamella Anderson sitting on my knee and Mary Harney on a treadmill running at 12kph for my sexual gratification, so....how are you going to guarantee that?

    Be a politician.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Ok cool - alternatives?

    Two alternatives in my mind:
    1: Make them pay it back, with interest - just like they dowhen they give people money. Fair's fair.
    2: Let them fail, just like any other private company would when it f*cks things up. Force banks to separate their lending and depositing businesses so as savers won't be burned if a lender overlends and goes bankrupt.

    Another possible third option would be to redefine the weight of different forms of investment, so as a bondholder is not equal to a saver, and savers can be guaranteed without protecting the speculators.

    These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with more when I'm properly awake ;)

    Essentially, banks should not be above society. They should be treated exactly as every other type of business. If the financial system's structure makes this impossible, then it's that system which needs to be overhauled. We should not have to overhaul our society to fit their model.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Godge wrote: »
    Fair enough but you didn't make that clear in your original post. For most of this thread you were defending the protests. At the last minute you denied you had anything to do with them. Sounds like Peter in the Garden.

    I'll defend anyone's right to protest being a democrat and believer in freedom of speech. Maybe I'm over optimistic but history is full of people who aimed high and did things that others laughed at. Full employment sounds like a very high bar but its not impossible, a computer on every desk was mocked not so long ago.
    Right now the exact same corruption is happening and there is no one fighting against it. Transparency is key to solving this its a worthy goal. Its easy to pick out a few words and snigger but that's what they did to MLK and Ghandi also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Two alternatives in my mind:
    1: Make them pay it back, with interest - just like they dowhen they give people money. Fair's fair.
    2: Let them fail, just like any other private company would when it f*cks things up. Force banks to separate their lending and depositing businesses so as savers won't be burned if a lender overlends and goes bankrupt.

    Another possible third option would be to redefine the weight of different forms of investment, so as a bondholder is not equal to a saver, and savers can be guaranteed without protecting the speculators.

    These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with more when I'm properly awake ;)

    Essentially, banks should not be above society. They should be treated exactly as every other type of business. If the financial system's structure makes this impossible, then it's that system which needs to be overhauled. We should not have to overhaul our society to fit their model.

    I don't always agree with you HP, I don't think you ideas would work a lot of the time, but at least you give a crap, in a way that isn't just ranty and obscure and you don't hide when asked a question. If more of the "protestors" had your attitude I actually think they would gain a lot more traction with the public at large.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    20Cent wrote: »
    I'll defend anyone's right to protest being a democrat and believer in freedom of speech. Maybe I'm over optimistic but history is full of people who aimed high and did things that others laughed at. Full employment sounds like a very high bar but its not impossible, a computer on every desk was mocked not so long ago.
    Right now the exact same corruption is happening and there is no one fighting against it. Transparency is key to solving this its a worthy goal. Its easy to pick out a few words and snigger but that's what they did to MLK and Ghandi also.

    I'd stand with you on the free speech thing, no issue there, pretty much all of us here would.

    It's not that you are overly optimistic, it's more misguided and dare I say it naive ( I mean that in the nicest way possible :)). We had effective full employment only a few years ago, sadly that was due to the over inflation in the property market, which meant that if you could pick up a shovel, you got work. Those days are gone and will never return. IMHO it will be a generation before we get even close to that level of employment again. We just have too much of an overhang of unskilled workers, and it will take time to retrain all those people, and find something for them to do.

    Any government will want as many people working as possible, less welfare + more tax take = profit after all. It has been shown many times though, that governments are pretty awful at job creation. What should happen is that government should create the conditions for others to create the jobs. Here, we still have endless red tape and bureaucracy, right from the start. Getting set up, and then afterwards. The amount of crap that gets saddled on the SME section in the country is a joke.

    Political transparency is a tough one, because, what does that even mean?

    Could we be doing better here? Absolutely, as I've said before, Dail reform is long overdue. How far down the chain do we go?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    So you're for unemployment homelessness and giving billions to failed private banks?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    If you don't try you'll never know.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    People are doing jobs now that didn't even exist a year or two ago. Technology is moving at an amazing pace. If you described facebook to someone ten years ago and said it would be floating for close to 100 billion they would have laughed at you. Who knows what the future will bring. Good job there are people out there with vision to agitate for the country they want. Doing nothing never achieved anything that's for sure. I agree it is a very high bar and difficult thing to achieve but isn't everything worthwhile a struggle?

    Protesters aren't expected to give detailed solutions to everything, they highlight issues and campaign in that direction. Cleaner air, less pollution, no war etc its then up to those with the power to make the changes to make them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    20Cent wrote: »
    People are doing jobs now that didn't even exist a year or two ago. Technology is moving at an amazing pace.
    Yes it is, isn’t it? That’s because some of us believe that going to work and doing something constructive with our day will achieve far more for humanity than sitting in a tent, scratching our collective arses and shouting “down with homework”.
    20Cent wrote: »
    Protesters aren't expected to give detailed solutions to everything...
    I’d be happy if they could suggest one single practical solution to anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    This year’s Edelman trust barometer indicated that 70% of Irish people do not trust their government leaders to tell the truth. We are ranked 24 out of the 25 countries surveyed, with only Italy inspiring less trust.

    TD Stephen Donnelly lists some of the things wrong with our political system.

    http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/from-the-chamber/speech-the-failure-of-the-dail/

    Looks like this guy has been inspired to start a new party.

    Man to walk from Limerick to Dublin hoping to form new political party
    http://www.thejournal.ie/man-to-walk-from-limerick-to-dublin-hoping-to-form-political-party-446500-May2012/

    Looking at a particular action in isolation it is easy to dismiss it. Real change comes about from many small actions by lots of people Like those organising this march on Sat. Doubt anyone expects to see change the next day its a long process and they are taking part. It all ads up in the long run.

    To quote Margaret Mead: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does”
    Fair play to them for giving it a go and trying. Very funny that those who do nothing mock them!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    But they are getting off their backsides and doing something. Trying to make their country a better place for everyone a good goal imo. Taking part in the political process is not whining its the opposite actually its taking positive action to improve everyone's lot. Making your voice heard is very admirable fair play to them.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


Advertisement