Sinn Fein's unpublished agenda?

K-9 · 01-05-2012 12:18am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Your friend was right. The Dargan Report of 1979 found that for the previous 60 years Irish telecommunications was saddled with underinvestment, and old lines. You'd have to wait a year for a phone then.

Following the criticisms of that report the IDA lobbied government to improve the networks, in order to aid SME's create jobs with a world class telecommunications network. The lobbying paid off and by 1987 the network was completely modernised from analogue to digital technology. Only one year later, Telecom Eireann went into profit for the first ever time. By 1999 when it was privatised, TE became highly profitable, debt free, and in control of one of Europes best telecommunications networks. According to the research of Dassler, Parker and Saal, between 1978 and 1998, telecommunications performance, productivity and efficiency in Ireland surpassed every single European country in that timeperiod.

It was private companies that underinvested since 1999 and asset stripped Eircom for a quick buck.

In short, privatisation does not work.

Indeed, I'm old enough to remember the P&T vans and dialing the operater at your local Post Office to get a call out.

I assumed we went from a very outdated system to a very modern one by European standards, which played a part in multinationals coming here. Governments could point to how tech savvy we were.

I don't know if it is true to say privatisation doesn't work though. I am finding it hard to find examples where it has worked in Ireland and the UK. I'd say if you privatised after a huge state investment, it would work. After the P&T, the new owners could leech of the state investment.

Pride Fighter · 01-05-2012 12:46am

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, I'm old enough to remember the P&T vans and dialing the operater at your local Post Office to get a call out.

I assumed we went from a very outdated system to a very modern one by European standards, which played a part in multinationals coming here. Governments could point to how tech savvy we were.

I don't know if it is true to say privatisation doesn't work though. I am finding it hard to find examples where it has worked in Ireland and the UK. I'd say if you privatised after a huge state investment, it would work. After the P&T, the new owners could leech of the state investment.

Well Telecom Eireann was privatised after 20 years of big investment and is proof it did not work. Obviously it can vary by sector to sector, and company by company. If TE was sold to Siemens or Nokia or a large Nordic or European telecommunications company it may have done well. Instead a vulture capitalist group took it over Valentia and subsequently Babcock and Brown. They borrowed to take it over and piled the debt onto the previously debt free company when the state owned it.

I am not defending SF per se. I am just defending semi-states and state enterprises.

Richard Hillman · 02-05-2012 11:19pm

My biggest fears are that they will increase taxes for hardworking people and pander to and enlarge the underclasses.

I also fear a United Ireland.

Nodin · 02-05-2012 11:27pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

............ and pander to and enlarge the underclasses.

.........

Do please expand.

Monty Burnz · 02-05-2012 11:34pm

dpe wrote: »

Actually, the areas they suggest for state ownership aren't that controversial. There's a good argument for state ownership of the telecoms network, even if you leave the retail side to the market. Ditto fuel and even insurance could have a state minimum with added value provided by the market.

So we need to run a loss-making state enterprise in competition with private companies in these areas? Because on a level playing pitch, private companies will absolutely destroy state-sector competitors. And I speak as someone who has worked in the state sector.

Lawrence1895 · 03-05-2012 5:31pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

My biggest fears are that they will increase taxes for hardworking people and pander to and enlarge the underclasses.

I also fear a United Ireland.

My biggest fear is, that you believe everything, the FF/FG propaganda machinery is telling you

recedite · 04-05-2012 2:18pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Sinn Féins ultimate aim is to end British rule in Ireland, reunite the terrortory and construct a real republic....

I hope that slip isn't freudian

Is armed rebellion followed by the installation of a marxist govt. still on the agenda? And is the democratically elected govt. of the 26 counties still not seen as a legitimate authority?

fasttalkerchat · 04-05-2012 2:24pm

recedite wrote: »

I hope that slip isn't freudian
Is armed rebellion followed by the installation of a marxist govt. still on the agenda? And is the democratically elected govt. of the 26 counties still not seen as a legitimate authority?

The 26 county government was elected by 2/3 of the population so it would be replaced by an elected parliament obviously.

recedite · 04-05-2012 4:44pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The 26 county government was elected by 2/3 of the population so it would be replaced by an elected parliament obviously.

And in the meantime, who is the provisional authority?

fasttalkerchat · 04-05-2012 4:49pm

recedite wrote: »

And in the meantime, who is the provisional authority?

Since SF take their seats in the dail you could confer that as a recognition of the dail's authority over that specific area.

thecommietommy · 04-05-2012 4:49pm

recedite wrote: »

I hope that slip isn't freudian
Is armed rebellion followed by the installation of a marxist govt. still on the agenda? And is the democratically elected govt. of the 26 counties still not seen as a legitimate authority?

That's was the ambition of Pat Rabbitte, Eammon Gilmore and believe it or not Eoghan Harris one time !!!! Serious, when they were in Offical Sinn Fein the Workers Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offical_Sinn_Fein

dpe · 04-05-2012 5:44pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So we need to run a loss-making state enterprise in competition with private companies in these areas? Because on a level playing pitch, private companies will absolutely destroy state-sector competitors. And I speak as someone who has worked in the state sector.

No, state insurance would be for example compulsory third-party car insurance; easy to administer (as part of car tax), and it culls the problem of uninsured drivers at a stroke (well it does if you use a DVLA style database). The private sector can do all the value add it wants.

Fuel, not so much on the distribution side, but if oil is discovered in the Atlantic, nationalised ownership isn't controversial at all.

[Jackass] · 07-05-2012 4:03pm

A monologue, based on the comedy styling’s of the Sinn Fein Economic Policy.

2. Economy

Sinn Féin believes people should be put at the heart of an economy. An economy should serve society, not the other way round. We believe a successful economy redistributes wealth via the tax and welfare systems. It sees employment, education and training as a right. And it takes into account all the activity that is not currently measured by modern economies, such as housework, child rearing, caring and volunteering. Not recognised in GDP calculations because they are not "producing" anything, and therefore can not generate wealth or be taxed, this is important from a simple Economics stand point - does not mean these aren't important functions.
Detailed, intensive economic policy is available on the Sinn Féin website in various pre-budget submissions, alternative economic papers and job creation documents. Our position on bank bondholders (restructure banking debts) are reiterated across the Sinn Féin website.
The following are the key Sinn Féin economic policies

Economies should be ran counter-cyclical. Governments’ should save in the good times (booms) so they can spend in the bad (recessions). We oppose moves from Europe to constitutionally limit national budgets, as this is a fiscal determinant that should be available to sovereign decision-makers. Very good in theory. BUT there will never be a boom if expansionary measures are reigned in as soon as there is a sign of growth, and a recession isn't going to go away just because you have put money aside to pay inflated social welfare amounts in a welfare state and pay for activities that produce no Economic growth.
The tax and social welfare systems should be redistributive. Income taxes should be fair and progressive. Governments should not rely on indirect flat taxes like consumption taxes. Welfare should be protected government spending and should be based on achieving a decent living standard for recipients while offering support to assist people re-entering the workforce. Our current income tax model is the perfect model of a progressive tax system, which can be found in any Economics text book. But you're probably hoping the people who read this don't know that, and think it sounds good. "Flat taxes" such as VAT are Economic rent on production in a functioning Economic system and are crucial to maintain services etc. in a prospering Economy. Remove taxes > ??? > increase welfare > ??? = Profit. Hard to believe such basic Economic principles are ignored by a major party in this country. Putting welfare as protected Government spending will decrease the labour force significantly, reducing income tax returns massively, after eliminating things like VAT and also looking to increase welfare to give a comfortable life, the very foundation of this Economic policy is flawed beyond belief.
The state should provide essential services to the economy (nationalised/state services). There should be a state bank, a state insurance company, state fuel company, state IT company (telephone/broadband etc), state health system, state transport and state schools & universities. Sinn Féin does support private enterprise as being essential to an economy, but we also recognise the hugely important part the state has to play in economic success.This sounds great. So eliminate all private sector efficiency and ingenuity, and replace it with a number of bureaucratic, state sponsored monopolies, and increase the public sector wage expenses ten fold, whilst producing very little of tangible Economic value they will pay for it. There must be a massive funding plan for all of this lower down in the list...i'm excited to see what it is!
We caution against a reliance on foreign direct investment over the growth of indigenous (homegrown) industry. We're not an 'isolationist' party. We recognise the importance of trade and investment. However we do dispute the reliance of the 26-County economy in particular on foreign direct investment to create jobs. The indigenous sector has at times seen its support sacrificed to appease multinational companies based here. We want to redress this imbalance. Wait, WHAT??!!?? So you also want to drive out the foreign investment in this Economy that produces billions into our Economy in terms of wages paid to Irish staff, tax returns from a free and open market! This would mean pushing out 10% of employers in Ireland, and nearly 50% of the value of our economy, and what will replace it? Irish companies will spring up? But you also are opposed to European funding of the Irish Economy, and we're already running a budget deficit of about 3.5 billion a year, and this is BEFORE you inflate welfare and public service expenditure, eliminate flat taxes and deflate the Irish Economy by driving out investors, and take budgetary measures sure to slash income tax returns also!! So the state bank will fund these Irish enterprises? Before I ask how the state intends to pay a single civil servants wages next month, how is the state bank going to replace up to 20 billion per year we have received from Foreign Direct Investment into our Economy??
We support the protection of wages and income. We do not believe in a race-to-the-bottom to improve Ireland's 'competitiveness'. We have strong policies on workers' rights. Workers are the heart of an economy and should be treated as such, not just as a means to a profit. We believe in absolute entitlement to join a trade union and collectively bargain. Sinn Féin policy on workers rights is based on the republican concept of equality as outlined in the 1916 Proclamation and the Democratic Programme. So, state takes on massive chunk of employment bill in Ireland, we force out the multinationals, we somehow replace them with Irish companies, THEN, when we have the Irish companies, we cripple our export market by driving up wages to uncompetitive levels around the rest of Europe, and the world? More Government income slashed. This must be the most genus funding idea ever coming up, they've re-written Economic theory, I can't wait to learn their secret!!
We support the establishment of a 'high-pay' commission, which would ensure the gap between the highest and lower earners in a society did not exceed a specific rate.

Wait...what?? That's it?? End list???? Your last point is to try and curtail the rewards for ingenuity and Economic productivity by taxing 100% of wages above a certain level to rise the welfare of the earners at the lowest level, thereby ensuring that after any Economic prosperity what so ever, more people will move into the bracket of better off on welfare than working and paying taxes?? But.....but....what about paying for everything you talked about? This is just more policy ensuring Economic implosion!!![/QUOTE]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Comedy supplied by Sinn Feinn Economic Policy - picked apart to pieces by a first year Economics student. This is the level of expertise we're dealing with from Sinn Fein.

I thank you.

recedite · 07-05-2012 9:47pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Your last point is to try and curtail the rewards for ingenuity and Economic productivity

I'd imagine the politicians and bankers, who produce nothing and show no ingenuity, would be prime targets for the wage restraint as proposed by SF.
Your assertion that care workers who have no taxable income "are not producing anything" is very wrong. Just as wrong as your assumption that bankers and politicians on huge incomes must be "producing something".

fasttalkerchat · 07-05-2012 10:15pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

...

Economies should be ran counter-cyclical.
Very good in theory. BUT there will never be a boom if expansionary measures are reigned in as soon as there is a sign of growth, and a recession isn't going to go away just because you have put money aside to pay inflated social welfare amounts in a welfare state and pay for activities that produce no Economic growth.
A counter cyclical economic spending plan would mean that spending is altered directly against the gradient of economic change. In the case of a 5% economical growth the decrease in spending would be 5%. This means that expansionary measures would not be reigned in disproportionately.
The state should provide essential services to the economy (nationalised/state services). There should be a state bank, a state insurance company, state fuel company, state IT company (telephone/broadband etc), state health system, state transport and state schools & universities. Sinn Féin does support private enterprise as being essential to an economy, but we also recognise the hugely important part the state has to play in economic success.This sounds great. So eliminate all private sector efficiency and ingenuity, and replace it with a number of bureaucratic, state sponsored monopolies, and increase the public sector wage expenses ten fold, whilst producing very little of tangible Economic value they will pay for it. There must be a massive funding plan for all of this lower down in the list...i'm excited to see what it is!
What they actually are saying is that their should be a state offering of services such as car insurance, broadband etc. It should be an bare bones no frills service. Private companies would offer additional services such as breakdown cover etc. for those who want to pay more. Bureaucracy, brown envelopes and the FF supporters club would be a thing of the past!
We caution against a reliance on foreign direct investment over the growth of indigenous (homegrown) industry. We're not an 'isolationist' party. We recognise the importance of trade and investment. Wait, WHAT??!!?? So you also want to drive out the foreign investment in this Economy that produces billions into our Economy in terms of wages paid to Irish staff, tax returns from a free and open market! This would mean pushing out 10% of employers in Ireland, and nearly 50% of the value of our economy, and what will replace it? Irish companies will spring up? But you also are opposed to European funding of the Irish Economy, and we're already running a budget deficit of about 3.5 billion a year, and this is BEFORE you inflate welfare and public service expenditure, eliminate flat taxes and deflate the Irish Economy by driving out investors, and take budgetary measures sure to slash income tax returns also!! So the state bank will fund these Irish enterprises? Before I ask how the state intends to pay a single civil servants wages next month, how is the state bank going to replace up to 20 billion per year we have received from Foreign Direct Investment into our Economy??Currently banks aren't lending and the only investment is FDI. FDI goes to foreign owned companies. To allow Irish companies to compete their cant be a total reliance on FDI in our economy.
We support the protection of wages and income. We do not believe in a race-to-the-bottom to improve Ireland's 'competitiveness'. We have strong policies on workers' rights. we cripple our export market by driving up wages to uncompetitive levels around the rest of Europe, and the world? More Government income slashed. This must be the most genus funding idea ever coming up, they've re-written Economic theory, I can't wait to learn their secret!!China and India are very competitive but no one wants to have people here working under those conditions or for that money. It is important to be competitive in a European context but not in a way that does us damage on the whole. Its like a taxi driver offering to take less than the meter to get a fare.
We support the establishment of a 'high-pay' commission, which would ensure the gap between the highest and lower earners in a society did not exceed a specific rate.

Your last point is to try and curtail the rewards for ingenuity and Economic productivity by taxing 100% of wages above a certain level to rise the welfare of the earners at the lowest level, thereby ensuring that after any Economic prosperity what so ever, more people will move into the bracket of better off on welfare than working and paying taxes??
Its about having a clear limit to the gap between the richest and poorest. All countries want to artificially limit the gap and cry when it gets wider but none have a real strategy to do it.

Red Crow · 08-05-2012 12:54am

I used to vote SF but this rubbish about water charges and no in the referendum has really pised me off.

I guess they still have gained more than they lost.

fasttalkerchat · 08-05-2012 12:59am

Eli Manning wrote: »

I used to vote SF but this rubbish about water charges and no in the referendum has really pised me off.

I guess they still have gained more than they lost.

Are you for the water charges?

thecommietommy · 08-05-2012 11:50am

Their could be a merge between SF and maybe some FFers led by O'Cuiv yet, wouldn't surprise me.

Lawrence1895 · 08-05-2012 1:14pm

Eli Manning wrote: »

I used to vote SF but this rubbish about water charges and no in the referendum has really pised me off.

I guess they still have gained more than they lost.

As far as I know, Sinn Fein are, apart from the Socialist Party, the only ones, opposing the Water Charges and the Household Tax. So what exactly is 'rubbish'? They way, Sinn Fein approached the matter?

laoch na mona · 08-05-2012 11:01pm

their probable the best decent sized party hopefully their vote will continue to increase

laoch na mona · 08-05-2012 11:03pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Their could be a merge between SF and maybe some FFers led by O'Cuiv yet, wouldn't surprise me.

SF are left FF are right it won't happen

recedite · 08-05-2012 11:16pm

Lars1916 wrote: »

So what exactly is 'rubbish'? They way, Sinn Fein approached the matter?

Most people understand that anything that costs money to produce, has to be paid for. Otherwise people waste it. You don't get free electricity.

laoch na mona · 08-05-2012 11:25pm

recedite wrote: »

Most people understand that anything that costs money to produce, has to be paid for. Otherwise people waste it. You don't get free electricity.

the electricity doesn't leak from outdated pipes

recedite · 09-05-2012 10:24pm

Actually there are significant transmission losses in the network.

09-05-2012 10:40pm

I just can't get my head around the "privatise everything" concept. Surely you'd end up with a situation where a private company would only focus on areas where they can make money and screw the rest? Such as dropping unprofitable (but important) bus or rail services. Or a sickening US-style healthcare system where profit is put before the right to life.

recedite · 09-05-2012 11:24pm

I'd be happy for postal, railways, electricity, telecoms and water to be State companies, but they still have to charge for their products.
For anyone that genuinely can't pay, there are social welfare allowances.

Border-Rat · 09-05-2012 11:32pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

SF are left FF are right it won't happen

Veneer. Still very possible.

Dubhlinner · 10-05-2012 2:12pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

SF are left FF are right it won't happen

Sinn Fein are slightly left of centre FF are slightly right of centre

Also remains to be seen how left SF would be in government. Look at labour in power

Hannibal · 10-05-2012 2:53pm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Sinn Fein are slightly left of centre FF are slightly right of centre

Also remains to be seen how left SF would be in government. Look at labour in power

Don't forget to look at Fine Gael aswell.

We won't know how SF will be in government until we see them there as it's about 90 years and a long time since they were last in government here, if this stance was taken then we should just re-elect Fianna Fáil all the time all we all know what they are like.
The Greens, Labour and PD's were or will be ruined by stints in government, Fine Gaels support will return to it's normal 20 to 25% mark once election time comes around and then we'll see which party can take the biggest chunk out of them.

thecommietommy · 10-05-2012 4:08pm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Sinn Fein are slightly left of centre FF are slightly right of centre

Also remains to be seen how left SF would be in government. Look at labour in power

Yes, SF could end up propping up a future FF led govt.

Sinn Fein's unpublished agenda?

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