Brehon Law, Cromwel and the gay referendum.

beerpong · 09-03-2015 9:39pm #1

So here we are in 2015 about to vote on whether same sex couples can marry, a proposition that wouldn't have been problem in the sixteenth century in Ireland. Although I am no expert my understanding is that under Brehon Law men and women had equal rights and gay marriage was not an issue.
When the only English Pope gave permission to the Anglo-Norman Henry 2 conquest of Ireland, it was the start of the end for Brehon Law. Under Brehon Law, apparently a deeply humane and cultured society flourished, where the Irish stored knowledge while the rest of Europe was burning books.
The wars of Cromwell, the policy pursued by King Charles II, at the Restoration, and the results of the Revolution of 1688, prevented any revival of the Irish laws: and before the end of the seventeenth century the whole race of Brehons and Ollamhs of the Irish laws appears to become extinct.
So my question to you, is with the destruction of the Brehon Laws and their almost complete erasure from history, are we still suffering from the side effects? A beaten people with laws which make slaves of us to the English and American money masters?
We beat the English establishment out of the South but did we lose the civil war and our chance to reignite our forgotten culture? Have we ever had a true Republic?

tomwaterford · 09-03-2015 9:46pm

I'm confused

Hande hoche! · 09-03-2015 9:51pm

I'm all for putting more blame on Cromwell.

tomwaterford · 09-03-2015 9:52pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

I'm all for putting more blame on Cromwell.

Pfft Bertie's where it's at :P

Desolation Of Smug · 09-03-2015 9:53pm

I like cheese.

Sir Osis of Liver. · 09-03-2015 10:00pm

They can take our lives,but they'll never take our cheese.

kowloon · 09-03-2015 10:00pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

I'm all for putting more blame on Cromwell.

Read that in the style of 'is there anything to be said for another mass?'

Cienciano · 09-03-2015 10:10pm

Another gay thread, brilliant !

The_Valeyard · 09-03-2015 10:13pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

I'm all for putting more blame on Cromwell.

If there were a shower worse than the black n tans....its Cromwell

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 09-03-2015 10:24pm

I consider myself a well read student of history and I haven't a clue what the OP is trying to say. If it's that social conventions change over time, then spot on. The ancient Greeks, Macedonians etc considered homosexual relationships quite the norm.

But, I'm still confused - OP please elucidate.

RDM_83 again · 09-03-2015 11:20pm

beerpong wrote: »

Under Brehon Law, apparently a deeply humane and cultured society flourished

Read some non revisionist/agenda led history (basically most websites on it are terrible), no expert on Brehon law but it operated a system of restorative justice (so you paid the victim or the victims families) thing is the price you paid was related to the victims status.

Brehon law is often referenced as being much fairer to women, ignoring the fact that female body slaves were actually a unit of currency and were rape was a crime that could be paid out of easily if the women was of low status at a time under Norman and other law it was a capitol offense (not that there would be much chance of conviction but the recognition was there). Some few women achieved substantial power and there was fairer inheritance but they were a tiny minority even among the nobility (waits for somebody to mention Grace O'Malley :rolleyes: ) the vast majority of power and inheritance lay with the men.
Ancient Ireland was just as nasty, brutal and hierarchal society as anywhere else (and possibly more in terms of constant intercine warfare and slaving) but probably because it was wiped out people who should know better often picture this egalitarian celtic wonderland.

Egginacup · 09-03-2015 11:50pm

beerpong wrote: »

So here we are in 2015 about to vote on whether same sex couples can marry, a proposition that wouldn't have been problem in the sixteenth century in Ireland. Although I am no expert my understanding is that under Brehon Law men and women had equal rights and gay marriage was not an issue.
When the only English Pope gave permission to the Anglo-Norman Henry 2 conquest of Ireland, it was the start of the end for Brehon Law. Under Brehon Law, apparently a deeply humane and cultured society flourished, where the Irish stored knowledge while the rest of Europe was burning books.
The wars of Cromwell, the policy pursued by King Charles II, at the Restoration, and the results of the Revolution of 1688, prevented any revival of the Irish laws: and before the end of the seventeenth century the whole race of Brehons and Ollamhs of the Irish laws appears to become extinct.
So my question to you, is with the destruction of the Brehon Laws and their almost complete erasure from history, are we still suffering from the side effects? A beaten people with laws which make slaves of us to the English and American money masters?
We beat the English establishment out of the South but did we lose the civil war and our chance to reignite our forgotten culture? Have we ever had a true Republic?

8 years and 21 posts........you're a steady dude aren't you?

Pumpkinseeds · 09-03-2015 11:51pm

I quite like Cromwell.:) *Awaits lynch mob

beerpong · 09-03-2015 11:52pm

Holland Mysterious Birch wrote: »

I consider myself a well read student of history and I haven't a clue what the OP is trying to say. If it's that social conventions change over time, then spot on. The ancient Greeks, Macedonians etc considered homosexual relationships quite the norm.

But, I'm still confused - OP please elucidate.

It was a bit of a ramble all right. Just wondering if Irish culture was totally obliterated over the centuries to the extent that it is non existent today.

Desolation Of Smug · 09-03-2015 11:54pm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I quite like Cromwell.:) *Awaits lynch mob

Not nearly as moreish as cheese though. Doesn't toast as well either.

The Backwards Man · 09-03-2015 11:55pm

King Billy was gay, maybe we should all be Unionists?

mad muffin · 10-03-2015 12:08am

To hell or to Connaught!

beerpong · 10-03-2015 12:34am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Read some non revisionist/agenda led history (basically most websites on it are terrible), no expert on Brehon law but it operated a system of restorative justice (so you paid the victim or the victims families) thing is the price you paid was related to the victims status.

Depending on your status this still happens today.

A shared culture of the western allies is equal to a total disconnect with nature and each other. Can we learn from the past generations and not write off everything as savage? Hopefully one day humans will still be around to learn from the savagery and light in today's world and not write us all off.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 10-03-2015 12:39am

Desolation Of Smug wrote: »

Not nearly as moreish as cheese though. Doesn't toast as well either.

Only way to find out is to dig him up and toast him, I suppose.

Will we use a toaster or just build a fire and stick him on a pike?

diomed · 10-03-2015 12:55am

Years ago while waiting for the train to Aqueduct racetrack in Long Island I got talking to a guy from Pueto Rica about the horses. I think he was impressed by me knowing that a Puerto Rican horse called Camarero holds the record for consecutive wins (56).
Then he spoiled the mood by saying his hero was Oliver Cromwell. Wtf. I put him right on that. Two times.

Lapin · 10-03-2015 12:59am

mad muffin wrote: »

To hell or to Connaught!

Way ahead of ya boy

shruikan2553 · 10-03-2015 1:07am

I know I said this in the last gay thread but this has become the weirdest gay thread yet.

conorh91 · 10-03-2015 1:29am

Some people think Americanisms made the Irish more litigious, but they should look at Brehon Law. We tend to venerate Brehon law without really considering how fcuked up it was. As RDM_83 already pointed out, it was a system based heavily on wealth and social status. There was no democratic equality. In fact, Brehon law makes the medieval, feudal English legal system look liberal and democratic.

Not only was Brehon law very coercive and arbitrary, it was extremely conservative. There was no free speech.

Free speech was an anathema to Brehon law. It was an offence to shame a person -- not like the defamation laws which protect people from malicious lies -- but the use of "clever words" or satire, or even a gesture.

Mocking a person's appearance was a crime. So was pointing out a blemish.

You can look at that another way. You can argue that it's an ancient source for an apparent Irish tendency to not speak badly of a person to their face, and to try and be cohesive as a society. More sweetly, for example, it was a serious offence to mock the disability of a leper or a disabled person.

But in general, we were much better off with the English-Norman legal system that arrived here with the Lordship of Ireland under Henry II, because it has proven to be the most liberal and economically successful framework for organising a society since the modern era.

Lapin · 10-03-2015 1:32am

Did we have lepers here? Seriously.

conorh91 · 10-03-2015 1:34am

Lapin wrote: »

Did we have lepers here? Seriously.

Yes. Leprosy was endemic in Ireland and Britain in the medieval era.

Dozer Dave · 10-03-2015 1:37am

I had a gay dog once.

MarkAnthony · 10-03-2015 1:38am

Dozer Dave wrote: »

I had a gay dog once.

How did it smell?!

Lapin · 10-03-2015 2:04am

MarkAnthony wrote: »

How did it smell?!

By using its nose I imagine.

MarkAnthony · 10-03-2015 2:15am

Lapin wrote: »

By using its nose I imagine.

Wrong Answer.

Fabulous

diomed · 10-03-2015 3:53am

Lapin wrote: »

Did we have lepers here? Seriously.

Leopardstown (Irish: Baile na Lobhar, meaning "Town of the Lepers")

gozunda · 10-03-2015 4:03am

Brehon Law, Cromwel and the gay referendum"

That's Thread is a serious contender for most bizarre title of the year - definitely. It would make for a great History Leaving cert Hons. Question. Brillant

Brehon Law, Cromwel and the gay referendum.

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