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Why is Traveller disadvantage not a mainstream concern?

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    #272
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    We all know what happens when they go to A & E for medical help. Maybe they don't want to be disturbed while they are in the midst of their melee by the police.


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    #273
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do we need to setup a separate scheme with staff dedicated only to the traveller population?

    Who else gets this special treatment?

    Ok, a lobby group is there to lobby and they want to be proud and that's great


    But if you want to be the same why do they demand and lobby for extra services that nobody else gets?

    And realy not asking for medical help is not confined to traveller men, that goes for many men in this country. Certainly not just a traveller issue

    Indeed,and what first appeared to be an article relating to factual issues regarding Traveller "Culture" was swiftly directed down another superhighway altogether....
    The census found only 12 per cent of Travellers now live in caravans or mobile homes, compared to 25 per cent in 2006. But this is not necessarily a positive development, according to Travellers. Ms Collins says some Travellers are not being given a choice and are forced into standard local authority housing when they would prefer to live in group housing or on halting sites with their extended families. She lives in a group housing scheme in Finglas, surrounded by her children and grandchildren. “Extended family is very important to us. I’d hate to be put in a house or apartment away from family. I think it can damage you and make you depressed if you are living in an environment with strangers, and maybe facing discrimination.”

    What possible reaction can be expected from anybody inhabiting the Real World,and belonging to the "Contributing Class" can be expected ?,save perhaps a choking reflex as this stuff is digested.

    Nonsense like this response, will see an increased clamour for far LESS funding to be allocated to this grouping,whetever advocates such as Later12 or Pavee Point think.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #274
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    I wonder what the Central Statistics Office thinks of this comment to the effect that it couldn't do its job without training from Pavee Point - especially the allegation about some of its staff deliberately ignoring travellers during the 2006 census.

    Martin Collins of Pavee Point says many Travellers did not even get census forms in the 2006 census and had no chance to be counted. “Some enumerators wouldn’t touch a halting site with a barge pole the last time,” he says. Pavee Point was very active in liaising with the Central Statistics Office and doing training with enumerators before last year’s census to ensure this did not happen again.

    As for this bit - Matt Cooper had an official from Clare County Council on in the last few weeks talking about how brand new €500,000 houses built specifically for travellers had been destroyed by arson before they were ever occupied, because some travellers had a grudge against those to whom the houses had been allocated. He also spoke of a traveller woman in poor health and who wanted to move out of a caravan into a house, but who was so fearful of the prospective traveller neighbours around the house she'd been allocated that she wouldn't accept it.

    Ms Collins says some Travellers are not being given a choice and are forced into standard local authority housing when they would prefer to live in group housing or on halting sites with their extended families. She lives in a group housing scheme in Finglas, surrounded by her children and grandchildren. “Extended family is very important to us. I’d hate to be put in a house or apartment away from family. I think it can damage you and make you depressed if you are living in an environment with strangers, and maybe facing discrimination.”


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    #275
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    lividduck wrote: »
    Excellent article in todays irish Times
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0407/1224314499129.html
    The figure relating to the significantly higher risk of suicide amongst traveller men is a little depressing. It seems to have emerged from the 2010 All-Ireland Traveller Health study.

    There's an interesting clip about this and other public health problems impacting on travellers in the UCD link below

    http://www.ucd.ie/news/2010/09SEP10/030910-shorter-life-expectancy-and-higher-suicide-rates-among-Travellers-study-shows.html


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    #276
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    later12 wrote: »
    The figure relating to the significantly higher risk of suicide amongst traveller men is a little depressing. It seems to have emerged from the 2010 All-Ireland Traveller Health study.

    There's an interesting clip about this and other public health problems impacting on travellers in the UCD link below

    http://www.ucd.ie/news/2010/09SEP10/030910-shorter-life-expectancy-and-higher-suicide-rates-among-Travellers-study-shows.html

    I'd prefer to concentrate my concerns at the significant upswing in suicide rates generally in Ireland,with young males,the gay community and bachelor farmers all competing with Travellers in this regard.

    I'm sorry,but the suicide issue is no greater in terms of Mainstream regard for Travellers than it is for every other sector of Irish society.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #277
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I wonder what the Central Statistics Office thinks of this comment to the effect that it couldn't do its job without training from Pavee Point - especially the allegation about some of its staff deliberately ignoring travellers during the 2006 census.

    Martin Collins of Pavee Point says many Travellers did not even get census forms in the 2006 census and had no chance to be counted. “Some enumerators wouldn’t touch a halting site with a barge pole the last time,” he says. Pavee Point was very active in liaising with the Central Statistics Office and doing training with enumerators before last year’s census to ensure this did not happen again.

    As for this bit - Matt Cooper had an official from Clare County Council on in the last few weeks talking about how brand new €500,000 houses built specifically for travellers had been destroyed by arson before they were ever occupied, because some travellers had a grudge against those to whom the houses had been allocated. He also spoke of a traveller woman in poor health and who wanted to move out of a caravan into a house, but who was so fearful of the prospective traveller neighbours around the house she'd been allocated that she wouldn't accept it.

    Ms Collins says some Travellers are not being given a choice and are forced into standard local authority housing when they would prefer to live in group housing or on halting sites with their extended families. She lives in a group housing scheme in Finglas, surrounded by her children and grandchildren. “Extended family is very important to us. I’d hate to be put in a house or apartment away from family. I think it can damage you and make you depressed if you are living in an environment with strangers, and maybe facing discrimination.”
    When you read stuff like this the natural reaction is one of "fcuk them and their internal feuds". I maintain that reaction is appropriate. We've done way more than enough for these people and that's that.


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    #278
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    later12 wrote: »
    The figure relating to the significantly higher risk of suicide amongst traveller men is a little depressing. It seems to have emerged from the 2010 All-Ireland Traveller Health study.

    There's an interesting clip about this and other public health problems impacting on travellers in the UCD link below

    http://www.ucd.ie/news/2010/09SEP10/030910-shorter-life-expectancy-and-higher-suicide-rates-among-Travellers-study-shows.html

    It is extremely depressing, and I write that as someone who has lost a brother to suicide.

    But it is even more depressing to read the Pavee Point spokespeople in today's IT article laying the blame at the door of the health services, while not stopping to question what it is about the traveller culture - which they want travellers to take more pride in - that drives such high suicide rates.

    As for the comments about healthcare, it's interesting to note this passage from the key findings section of the article you linked to:

    Just under half of all Travellers feel discriminated against. This is experienced in all aspects of life. However, least discrimination is experienced in sport, followed by the health sector.

    i.e., the majority of travellers don't feel discriminated against, particularly in health care.


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    #279
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I'd prefer to concentrate my concerns at the significant upswing in suicide rates generally in Ireland,with young males,the gay community and bachelor farmers all competing with Travellers in this regard.

    I'm sorry,but the suicide issue is no greater in terms of Mainstream regard for Travellers than it is for every other sector of Irish society.
    Does suicide account for 11% of all deaths in the gay community or the farming community? I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

    Either way, this isn't a competition.

    The incidence of suicide, along with concerns about mental health services for travellers, is clearly a worrying statistic. You've already made your opinion on travellers clear; I'm not here to convince you into caring about this or any other statistic.


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    #280
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    later12 wrote: »

    Either way, this isn't a competition.

    .

    Agreed,but when the posted responses to your OP did not appear sufficiently pro-active for you appeared to feel driven to expand the issue in a competitive manner.

    Perhaps it's time to end THIS thread and open another,more specifically related to the wider collection of issues which do not necessarily focus on "Mainstream Concerns",whatever they may be ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #281
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    the Pavee Point spokespeople in today's IT article laying the blame at the door of the health services
    I'm not sure that's quite the case. While she makes a suggestion for the appropriate action to be taken by the dept. of health, Missie Collins only says that the services currently being provided might be culturally inappropriate for travellers. I'm not sure what she means by that exactly, but no, she doesn't indicate that the problem is discrimination.

    Furthermore, just because the least discrimination is experienced in the health sector, that doesn't mean that travellers don't still feel discriminated against in that area, even it is to a lesser extent than elsewhere. However, health workers are more likely to be professionally educated with fairly rigorous codes of conduct and that is probably the reason why travellers are less discriminated against in that area.


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    #282
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    "Discrimination" wrt travelers is not the same as discrimination wrt skin colour etc. Travelers do not want to integrate into mainstream society in the same way as an Indian or Ethiopian migrant to Ireland does. The dark skin coloured migrant actively wants to join mainstream Irish society, to work, to pay taxes, to possibly own a home or at least rent one. Travelers (generally, there will be exceptions) do not want any of this.

    Travelers largely exclude themselves from society. Black or brown migrants do not. I have time for anyone of any religion or colour who wants to play their part in society. I have no time for a group who want to keep themselves removed from society but at the same time want society to fund their exclusionary lifestyle.


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    #283
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    murphaph wrote: »
    "The dark skin coloured migrant actively wants to join mainstream Irish society, to work, to pay taxes, to possibly own a home or at least rent one. Travelers (generally, there will be exceptions) do not want any of this.
    Do you back up your posts on travellers with anything?

    Genuine question.

    88% of travellers responded to say they lived in permanent accommodation, for example.

    I presume your assertions on "dark skin coloured migrants" homogenous desires for their lives vs travellers' desires were plucked out of thin air.


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    #284
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    later12 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that's quite the case. While she makes a suggestion for the appropriate action to be taken by the dept. of health, Missie Collins only says that the services currently being provided might be culturally inappropriate for travellers. I'm not sure what she means by that exactly, but no, she doesn't indicate that the problem is discrimination.
    You're misrepresenting what was said - and deliberately so in that you are following your previous form on the thread of using caveats or "outs" like might and other such non committal words.
    Quote from the article (my bold) "She says many of the health services on offer aren’t culturally appropriate for Travellers."
    Missy Collins is quite definite that health services on offer aren't culturally appropriate for Travellers but you replace this with "might be" to tone down the accusation and then supply your own, more sanitised translation to suggest that she is not indicating discrimination.
    She is definite on the inappropriateness of many of the health services on offer - the only reasonable interpretaton of this accusation is that she is accusing the health services of discriminating against Traveller culture - I don't know why you want to present what she said differently?
    later12 wrote: »
    Furthermore, just because the least discrimination is experienced in the health sector, that doesn't mean that travellers don't still feel discriminated against in that area, even it is to a lesser extent than elsewhere. However, health workers are more likely to be professionally educated with fairly rigorous codes of conduct and that is probably the reason why travellers are less discriminated against in that area.
    I wonder do they feel discriminated against in the social welfare system?


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    #285
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    later12 wrote: »
    88% of travellers responded to say they lived in permanent accommodation, for example.
    Define a traveller please and how a person who lives in permanent accommodation can be classified as a "Traveller".


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    #286
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    i06kgrw7h59dxn wrote: »
    Missy Collins is quite definite that health services on offer aren't culturally appropriate for Travellers but you replace this with "might be" to tone down the accusation
    No, I was just paraphrasing the woman. Indeed, she said the services aren't culturally appropriate.

    Nevertheless, no; that's not at all the same as saying that health service provision is inherently discriminatory.

    I can think of lots of things that I think are culturally inappropriate for different groups without there being a logical necessity that such structures are discriminatory.


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    #287
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    i06kgrw7h59dxn wrote: »
    Define a traveller please and how a person who lives in permanent accommodation can be classified as a "Traveller".
    I have already said that I'm not interested in applying my own definitions of travellers to that group of individuals. While I think some aspects of their traditions are culturally interesting, I'm not explicitly concerned about their culture or their ethnicity or anything else.

    My concern is that, however we define them, there are a group of about 30,000 Irish individuals who self-identify as a specific group of people, who have a high risk of adverse health, employment and educational attributes.

    I don't consider it appropriate to pass judgement on them or their culture or lifestyles outside of that context.


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    #288
    glic71rods46t0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭glic71rods46t0


    later12 wrote: »
    No, I was just paraphrasing the woman. Indeed, she said the services aren't culturally appropriate.
    So you acknowledge that you misquoted her with your paraphrasing - good!
    later12 wrote: »
    Nevertheless, no; that's not at all the same as saying that health service provision is inherently discriminatory.
    In the context of the article, it most certainly is.
    later12 wrote: »
    I can think of lots of things that I think are culturally inappropriate for different groups without there being a logical necessity that such structures are discriminatory.
    Wonderful, but we are talking about Travellers here and specifically the IT article and Missy Collins very definite assertion which was made when discussing the lower life expectancy of Travellers.


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    #289
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    later12 wrote: »
    Do you back up your posts on travellers with anything?.
    To be honest it's just the dealings I have had with them that colour my views of them. I've never experienced anything positive from travelers, I have had plenty of positive experiences with other groups who might genuinely be able to cry discrimination.

    I make no bones about it. I don't try to conceal my dislike of them. I accept that there will be a minority of good travelers but I maintain they are a small minority. They are in general trouble IMO.

    I've found them to encourage their kids to steal (from my father's business) and we were broken in to and the Guards were 100% sure it was a gang of travelers that did it. Not proven in court but I don't need a court conviction to colour my views.


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    #290
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,272 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    later12 wrote: »
    I'm not sure that's quite the case. While she makes a suggestion for the appropriate action to be taken by the dept. of health, Missie Collins only says that the services currently being provided might be culturally inappropriate for travellers. I'm not sure what she means by that exactly, but no, she doesn't indicate that the problem is discrimination.

    Furthermore, just because the least discrimination is experienced in the health sector, that doesn't mean that travellers don't still feel discriminated against in that area, even it is to a lesser extent than elsewhere. However, health workers are more likely to be professionally educated with fairly rigorous codes of conduct and that is probably the reason why travellers are less discriminated against in that area.

    I had to go into A and E a few weeks ago. The waiting room was full of drunk travellers shouting and roaring around the place so none of them seemed to find it "culturally inappropriate" what ever that rubbish means. But then i was forking out €100 to be seen...


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    #291
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    MOD NOTE:

    This thread seems to be going in circles at this point, so unless anyone has anything new to add in regards to Travellers and social concerns about them (or lack thereof) it may be time to wrap things up.

    A week later, we've definitely reached that point.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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