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Shootings In France

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    #242
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    There ye go again....'I don't generalise (but here's a massive series of generalisations and sweeping statements)'.


    Christ, if I have to qualify every statement with "SOME NOT ALL" it really gets tiresome. Lets assume that we are speaking about 1 billion people are therefore they all dont hold the same opinion on everything. That a bit of a leap?

    But when talking in sociological terms and if you look at the available evidence , the polls clearly show as a group they seek to quickly disown any of their own wrongs, blame thier own failures almost entirelly on others and seek to portray themselves as victims time and time again.


    The left hardly helps in the matter either, more than willing to at least partially absolve even the most heinous crimes in their mad rush to score perceived political points against the US or Israel.See for example how many people brought up Israeli policy as a reason for this ( then quickly saying it is no excuse or not). The implication always is "thats where it began". It shouldnt even need to mentioned except in passing when discussing a bunch of Jewish school kids getting shot in the head a thousand miles away by an Algerian man. But then Islam seems to give him some special connection allowing him to be personally insulted by the wrongs commited elsewhere. If thats not one of the hallmarks of an ideology that is at least extremly open to intolerance and extremism, Id like to hear what you would consider one.


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    #243
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Christ, if I have to qualify every statement with "SOME NOT ALL" it really gets tiresome..........

    Not half as tiring as 'muslims...muslims....muslims'.

    Use "extremist", "conservative" "salafist" "wahabi" "jihadi" "nut" "loopers"....that kind of thing.


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    #244
    Giruilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Giruilla


    Another reason to be secretly racist about the Islamic culture!


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    #245
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    Not half as tiring as 'muslims...muslims....muslims'.

    Use "extremist", "conservative" "salafist" "wahabi" "jihadi" "nut" "loopers"....that kind of thing.

    Ok, sure Ill try remember that and you have a point.


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    #246
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    ........... But then Islam seems to give him some special connection allowing him to be personally insulted by the wrongs commited elsewhere. If thats not one of the hallmarks of an ideology that is at least extremly open to intolerance and extremism, Id like to hear what you would consider one.

    .....there are few ideologies not open to that sort of thinking. Being "insulted by the wrongs commited elsewhere" wasn't his crime either.


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    #247
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Nodin wrote: »
    .....there are few ideologies not open to that sort of thinking. Being "insulted by the wrongs commited elsewhere" wasn't his crime either.

    Thats true enough. Given the widespread nature of Islam and its importance to many who practice it this is particularly damaging, however, in that it does not easily allow the wider community to confront and deal with the more radical elements within its ranks. The mere passing of the percieved scource of a problem onto another makes it far less likely the communities own part played goes unaddressed.

    Well he used as justification the appalling treatment of Palestinian childern - I think if it was real concern for those childern that had motivated him he would have acted in a very different way. I cant remember where I read this, but if I can find the link Ill send it to you if your interested, but it is often the case with violent reprisal such as this (or the Iraq war following 9 11) that the people who carry out said reprisal are more motivated by wounded personal pride, perceived humiliation and a wish to revenge THIS than a wish to avenge the victims of the original wrong. I hope that made sense.


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    #248
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SamHarris wrote: »
    ...........

    Well he used as justification the appalling treatment of Palestinian childern - I think if it was real concern for those childern that had motivated him he would have acted in a very different way. I cant remember where I read this, but if I can find the link Ill send it to you if your interested, but it is often the case with violent reprisal such as this (or the Iraq war following 9 11) that the people who carry out said reprisal are more motivated by wounded personal pride, perceived humiliation and a wish to revenge THIS than a wish to avenge the victims of the original wrong. I hope that made sense.

    Indeed, its often the case. There's nothing in his background to suggest even much of a long term religous bent.


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    #249
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Giruilla wrote: »
    Another reason to be secretly racist about the Islamic culture!

    "sectarian" or you miss the Barrys.


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    #250
    Channel Zero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    The blame for this should not be laid so comprehensively at the door of Muslims/Islam, nor should it be used to vilify said group. IMO. I'm off to take a shower.


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    #251
    Giruilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Giruilla


    Nodin wrote: »
    "sectarian" or you miss the Barrys.

    Not sure what word you wish to interpret as "sectarian". I'll choose Islam. So down with all the "secto" cants. Cruel all non belavers. Crale all non warshippers. Haven is the haven to the avel way to the jayhead. Religion just gets better and better the more you hate. (Opposite the more you love... youre choice).


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    #252
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Channel Zero wrote: »
    The blame for this should not be laid so comprehensively at the door of Muslims/Islam, nor should it be used to vilify said group. IMO. I'm off to take a shower.


    Well in this case it is tied to his religion, but tangentially.

    The grievance seems to have been more political, a political grievance he felt because of his shared religion.

    I despise when people try and absolve Islam (or any ideology come to think of it) compeltly of being an inspiration in certain attacks, you dont have to look far to see examples of Islam directly insipiring violence. But this would not be a very good example of it, or so it seems at the moment.

    Also just read he was fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan, this was known but he was allowed to wander France. Does this seem absolutly crazy to anyone else?


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    #253
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Giruilla wrote: »
    Not sure what word you wish to interpret as "sectarian". I'll choose Islam. So down with all the "secto" cants. Cruel all non belavers. Crale all non warshippers. Haven is the haven to the avel way to the jayhead. Religion just gets better and better the more you hate. (Opposite the more you love... youre choice).

    I dont understand what you mean, but what I believe Nodin ment was that Islam is not a race, therefore you cannot be "rascist" towards it.


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    #254
    Pdfile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭Pdfile


    SamHarris wrote: »
    I dont understand what you mean, but what I believe Nodin ment was that Islam is not a race, therefore you cannot be "rascist" towards it.


    religion is a thought by man, not a belief; its merely a tool to get what you want.


    anyone who believes in it shouldn't be fully respected.


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    #255
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,634 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    SamHarris wrote: »
    I dont understand what you mean, but what I believe Nodin ment was that Islam is not a race, therefore you cannot be "rascist" towards it.
    Semantically no. Realistically yes. It's simple. See a person of arab descent? Automagically presume they are a radical muslim terrorist. Then you are hating them not because they are Persian or whatever but because of the superimposed muslim beliefs you have placed on them.


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    #256
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Overheal wrote: »
    Semantically no. Realistically yes. It's simple. See a person of arab descent? Automagically presume they are a radical muslim terrorist. Then you are hating them not because they are Persian or whatever but because of the superimposed muslim beliefs you have placed on them.

    I think that falls more under the category of rascism still, ie judging someone by their race. I could be wrong though.


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    #257
    SamHarris
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Pdfile wrote: »
    religion is a thought by man, not a belief; its merely a tool to get what you want.


    anyone who believes in it shouldn't be fully respected.

    I dont know why your addressing this at me, Id be the last person to say that religion should have special protection from criticism just because people believe it came from a voice in a whirl wind. Religions are just ideologys to me, some more damaging than others and in different ways.


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    #258
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    SamHarris wrote: »
    Hardly, there have been many progroms throughout the middle easts past. Yes, so what your saying is that Israel is responsible for Muslims hatred for Jews througout the world? I am saying that firstly it is a piss poor excuse, secondly Islam is the one religion where this sense of self rightous outrage seems to seep throughout the community, justifying murders throughout the world, thirdly your ascertian that it began in the 1940's is entirelly false. It may be exasterbated following the states creation, however if you believe it is merely the treatment of Palestinians is the sole cause of the massive amounts of anti semetism your high. The fact that Palestinians are often treated as bad or worse by their Arab brothers is often ignored, the ethnic factor matters much more than Western supporters of Palestine should be comfortbale with.

    I'm not saying it's not a piss-poor excuse, but if we can determine whether there was a notable rise in anti-Jewish feeling post-Israel, then addressing this issue may help in lessening the anti-Jewish feeling. A lot of ignorance can be helped through education (and in general, better standards of living). I'm well aware that there were pograms before the establishment of Israel, but I'd be interested to see whether they rose significantly after the state's existence.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    Next person that I have to say this to is going on a damn ignore list.

    I have pointed out the vast differences within Islam about 5 times now. Read. More. Carefully.

    I see you've clarified your position in later posts. I do think it's important to use 'extremists' instead of simply 'muslims', regardless of what you may mean. If a group perceives they are labelled with the tags of the extremes, it can be difficult to address those issues.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    It is not "tarring with one brush" to recognise those statistics do not represent an extremly tolerant society.

    And other statistics would suggest that Christians are intolerant towards Muslims and Jews. Another issue that needs to be addressed.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    Thats because the situations are not analagious. Anders was a Christian who killed for political reasons. Mohammed Atta was a Muslim who killed believing he would be rewarded in the after life, inspired to do what he did explicitly by religion. If you cant see how that is different, really I dont know how to make it much clearer.

    I would argue that there is a strong 'political' aspect to 9/11. There was far more of a religious bent to it than to the Anders massacre, but it's still important.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    Make it recent history, and once again like I said a few times now by far the most Islam inspired violence is carried out in Islamic countries, against sects those people believe are apostasy. Last time I bothered checking it was 600 cases in Pakistan alone in 2009. The opinion that this is "right" is as high as 30% in Britian. If this is indicitive of a tolerant religion to you, what would it take for it to become "intolerant"?

    It's indicitative of intolerance within the religion, not of an intolerant religion.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    Wahabism most definitly is.

    Wahabism is a minor extremist sect. The reason for its notoriety is because it is popular amongst some members of the Saud family, and a large proportion of their subjects. If Saudi Arabia didn't have oil, we wouldn't hear that much about it.
    SamHarris wrote: »
    Again, irrelevant when so many individualy take it upon themselves to support various groups and be intolerant, as again the polls have shown.

    And statistics can show that Christians are intolerant towards Jews and Muslims.


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