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*Ahem* slight rant

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Calibos wrote: »
    My mind has been blown by the original, intelligent and well thought out arguements by our theistic friends and I will be converting to their belief system of choice forthwith.

    ..........meanwhile, in this dimension.......

    They do put up some good arguments. By 'good', I mean amusing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    It's some laugh alright :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    newmug wrote: »
    There's a serious amount of facepalm in this thread. To all you "If God exists, why does he allow bad stuff to happen" type athiests, I have two words for you:






    FREE WILL
    I have two for you:

    NATURAL DISASTERS



    So much for free will if the planet decides to kill your entire village.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    newmug wrote: »





    FREE WILL







    OK, as you are apparently well clued in on the whole subject, perhaps you can help me with a couple of points that give me some trouble. So, first of all, we are working on the basis that your god is this all loving, all powerful forgiving god that wants everyone to go to heaven. If that roughly correct? He then, even though he knew it would end in sh1t, gave us free will and sent us on our way. Awesome.

    So how does this free will cause natural disasters? What does a person have to do to cause, for example, a tsunami? Is everyone killed in a tsunami guilty of something? Does you god not realise how impressive his natural disasters would be if they only killed bad people?

    And what about all those little African kids that are born have absolutely horrible but mercifully short existence and die never even having heard of your god or his message of love. How, exactly, did their free will cause the appalling conditions they live in? I guess you will respond to that with the “evil warlord stealing the food supplies” gambit. Well played sir, but complete crap. You may have nasty people using drought and famine for self-profit, but they did not cause it, they did not allow it and no matter how much Aid they steal they most certainly aren’t preventing it from raining.

    The existence of your god, with the attribute that you say he has, makes no sense given what we see around us. I appreciate that you, for whatever reason, need to believe in this god. The problem is, we don’t. So, for you the excuse fo free will causes all the bad stuff, or the problem isn’t god it is us or we are the bad guys, makes a lot of sense to you. When you really, really, really want or need to believe something is true you will find a way of making it true, irrespective of what logic, reason and evidence tells you. We don’t have that problem. I don’t need your god to feel whole. I don’t need your god to help me sleep at night. I don’t need your god to give me a reason for my life. I don’t need your god to help me with my fear of death and the nothingness that comes after it. As a result of this I don’t need to believe the absolute bullsh1t you have to in order to rationalise the existence of your god with his particular set of attributes and the apparent lack of anything like your god that we se in the world around us.

    Wake up.

    MrP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Or.....
    GENETIC DISORDER

    newmug wrote: »
    Before yougo dissing an entire facet of life unique to humans since we were intelligent enough to believe there might be an afterlife, at least learn a bit about it.

    Quite...you're so intelligent you choose to worship a deliberately cruel bastard...lol


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    advice-god-meme-generator-i-gave-you-free-will-so-use-it-exactly-as-i-command-you-to-80e5b7.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    MrPudding wrote: »
    OK, as you are apparently well clued in on the whole subject, perhaps you can help me with a couple of points that give me some trouble. So, first of all, we are working on the basis that your god is this all loving, all powerful forgiving god that wants everyone to go to heaven. If that roughly correct? He then, even though he knew it would end in sh1t, gave us free will and sent us on our way. Awesome.

    So how does this free will cause natural disasters? What does a person have to do to cause, for example, a tsunami? Is everyone killed in a tsunami guilty of something? Does you god not realise how impressive his natural disasters would be if they only killed bad people?

    And what about all those little African kids that are born have absolutely horrible but mercifully short existence and die never even having heard of your god or his message of love. How, exactly, did their free will cause the appalling conditions they live in? I guess you will respond to that with the “evil warlord stealing the food supplies” gambit. Well played sir, but complete crap. You may have nasty people using drought and famine for self-profit, but they did not cause it, they did not allow it and no matter how much Aid they steal they most certainly aren’t preventing it from raining.

    The existence of your god, with the attribute that you say he has, makes no sense given what we see around us. I appreciate that you, for whatever reason, need to believe in this god. The problem is, we don’t. So, for you the excuse fo free will causes all the bad stuff, or the problem isn’t god it is us or we are the bad guys, makes a lot of sense to you. When you really, really, really want or need to believe something is true you will find a way of making it true, irrespective of what logic, reason and evidence tells you. We don’t have that problem. I don’t need your god to feel whole. I don’t need your god to help me sleep at night. I don’t need your god to give me a reason for my life. I don’t need your god to help me with my fear of death and the nothingness that comes after it. As a result of this I don’t need to believe the absolute bullsh1t you have to in order to rationalise the existence of your god with his particular set of attributes and the apparent lack of anything like your god that we se in the world around us.

    Wake up.

    MrP

    What you talkin bout Willis?

    It does rain in Africa!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    What you talkin bout Willis?

    It does rain in Africa!
    I assume your next post will be an actual reply to the points made here, because if it's not I'm going to have to assume you are just wasting people's time here and take action.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    "It rains in Africa" is a little bit like saying people have Dublin accents in the UK. Completely misses the scale of the thing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    you choose to worship a deliberately cruel bastard...
    Well, wouldn't you do whatever it took to stop being burned in a lake of theological sulphur if you actually believed that stuff?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    robindch wrote: »
    Well, wouldn't you do whatever it took to stop being burned in a lake of theological sulphur if you actually believed that stuff?

    Does that include making up ludicrous defences in order to avoid accepting/admitting what kind of god I defer to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Why does god allow bad things to happen?

    Well i don't know, things just happen, i can't explain most things but i just accept that they are what they are.
    This is not an answer to the question. This is an admission that your explanation has a giant gaping hole in it that you cannot correct.

    So since you can't explain this failing, why do you pick God as an explanation?
    Why do you think that it is a valid opinion when you have this giant gap in it?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Does that include making up ludicrous defences in order to avoid accepting/admitting what kind of god I defer to?
    That's what theodicy is all about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    newmug wrote: »

    FREE WILL



    Before yougo dissing an entire facet of life unique to humans since we were intelligent enough to believe there might be an afterlife, at least learn a bit about it.
    So then what about all those times in the bible God directly interferes with humans and often murders them straight out?
    Are they not examples of him ignoring free will?

    Or do you just not know much about the bible?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Nature in us grows dark when we have no road.

    :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Northclare wrote: »
    Nature in us grows dark when we have no road.

    :)

    Your road is like all roads, built by people.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Northclare wrote: »
    Nature in us grows dark when we have no road.

    :)
    The warning I gave your buddy applies to you too.
    Dades wrote: »
    I assume your next post will be an actual reply to the points made here, because if it's not I'm going to have to assume you are just wasting people's time here and take action.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    King Mob wrote: »
    This is not an answer to the question. This is an admission that your explanation has a giant gaping hole in it that you cannot correct.

    So since you can't explain this failing, why do you pick God as an explanation?
    Why do you think that it is a valid opinion when you have this giant gap in it?

    I cant remember you're question but if its why do I believe in God?


    I feel very blessed.

    Like how many people are poor, how many people dont have access to clean water, how many people are in bad health?

    I'm none of those things, I live a good life, it could be better but it could be a hell of a lot worse, and for this reason I'm thankful.

    Why doesnt God make everybody rich and happy so?

    Again I dont know, perhaps God left the running of the world in the hands of man and this is the result.

    Why do natural disasters happen?

    NOt all disasters are bad, also humans arent the only species on earth. When floods happen, some species prosper while others dont, it's the circle of life, and we as humans have to live as one in perfect harmony with nature.

    Also take Haiti, I remember seeing an interview and a woman said that the earthquake was like a blessing, many died but the attention and money poured into it after majorly improved the standard of living there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    I cant remember you're question but if its why do I believe in God?

    I feel very blessed.

    Like how many people are poor, how many people dont have access to clean water, how many people are in bad health?

    I'm none of those things, I live a good life, it could be better but it could be a hell of a lot worse, and for this reason I'm thankful.
    So basically, you just decided to believe that god gave you all this stuff because you are special, then not question anything?
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Why doesnt God make everybody rich and happy so?

    Again I dont know, perhaps God left the running of the world in the hands of man and this is the result.
    So then why did he pick you to be nice do? Just good luck? That he loves you more than others?
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Why do natural disasters happen?

    NOt all disasters are bad, also humans arent the only species on earth. When floods happen, some species prosper while others dont, it's the circle of life, and we as humans have to live as one in perfect harmony with nature.
    Cept we can't "live in harmony" with earthquakes or volcanoes or viruses regardless of how nice and fluffy that sounds.
    There's no sane reason why God would put these in the world if he was all loving.
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Also take Haiti, I remember seeing an interview and a woman said that the earthquake was like a blessing, many died but the attention and money poured into it after majorly improved the standard of living there.
    Lol.
    So leaving aside how horrifyingly disgusting that is, can you please then explain why god couldn't have done all this supposed good without killing people?
    Why couldn't he has say taken over the minds of some very rich people and used them to improve the standard of living there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    King Mob wrote: »
    So basically, you just decided to believe that god gave you all this stuff because you are special, then not question anything?


    So then why did he pick you to be nice do? Just good luck? That he loves you more than others?


    Cept we can't "live in harmony" with earthquakes or volcanoes or viruses regardless of how nice and fluffy that sounds.
    There's no sane reason why God would put these in the world if he was all loving.


    Lol.
    So leaving aside how horrifyingly disgusting that is, can you please then explain why god couldn't have done all this supposed good without killing people?
    Why couldn't he has say taken over the minds of some very rich people and used them to improve the standard of living there?
    Genesis 1, 26 -Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

    So God made everything then let man/woman rule the earth. And we made a balls of it.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Also take Haiti, I remember seeing an interview and a woman said that the earthquake was like a blessing, many died but the attention and money poured into it after majorly improved the standard of living there.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203918304577243530660428106.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
    Two years after the quake, more than half a million Haitians, out of an original 1.5 million made homeless, are living in overcrowded and squalid make-shift tent cities.
    Methinks God's "urban renewal" plan is somewhat lacking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    So God made everything then let man/woman rule the earth. And we made a balls of it.
    But we can't possibly control earthquakes or volcanoes or the horrible, crippling diseases and genetic abnormalities that you think God put into the world.

    How exactly do you think we caused them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    King Mob wrote: »
    But we can't possibly control earthquakes or volcanoes or the horrible, crippling diseases and genetic abnormalities that you think God put into the world.

    How exactly do you think we caused them?

    And where exactly did I say we control earthquakes and volcanoes, you're lack of reading what I actually write has landed on my ban list.

    Good day!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    And where exactly did I say we control earthquakes and volcanoes, you're lack of reading what I actually write has landed on my ban list.

    Good day!
    Lol. I love the irony.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Dades wrote: »



    Haiti was one of the poorest countries in the world before the quake, it's still one of the poorest counties after, the poorest of the poor countries dont magically become proper societies after 2 years, after a few years, the fact that people look like they have some quality of life shows how far its come, a little perspective is needed when you're talking about a country in the bottom 10 poorest countries before the quake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Haiti was one of the poorest countries in the world before the quake, it's still one of the poorest counties after, the poorest of the poor countries dont magically become proper societies after 2 years, after a few years, the fact that people look like they have some quality of life shows how far its come, a little perspective is needed when you're talking about a country in the bottom 10 poorest countries before the quake.
    Lol, yet more irony.
    If only there was someone or somebeing who could actually perform magic...:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    King Mob wrote: »
    But we can't possibly control earthquakes or volcanoes or the horrible, crippling diseases and genetic abnormalities that you think God put into the world.

    How exactly do you think we caused them?
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    So God made everything then let man/woman rule the earth. And we made a balls of it.
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    And where exactly did I say we control earthquakes and volcanoes, you're lack of reading what I actually write has landed on my ban list.

    Good day!
    Saying that God lets us rule everything implies that we somehow have control over these things.
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Also take Haiti, I remember seeing an interview and a woman said that the earthquake was like a blessing, many died but the attention and money poured into it after majorly improved the standard of living there.
    Dades wrote: »
    Two years after the quake, more than half a million Haitians, out of an original 1.5 million made homeless, are living in overcrowded and squalid make-shift tent cities.
    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Haiti was one of the poorest countries in the world before the quake, it's still one of the poorest counties after, the poorest of the poor countries dont magically become proper societies after 2 years, after a few years, the fact that people look like they have some quality of life shows how far its come, a little perspective is needed when you're talking about a country in the bottom 10 poorest countries before the quake.
    You're just contradicting yourself now. Either the standard of living in Haiti has majorly improved OR hundreds of thousands of people are living in squalor. Which is it?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Haiti was one of the poorest countries in the world before the quake, it's still one of the poorest counties after, the poorest of the poor countries dont magically become proper societies after 2 years, after a few years, the fact that people look like they have some quality of life shows how far its come, a little perspective is needed when you're talking about a country in the bottom 10 poorest countries before the quake.
    What are you talking about?

    There is today a half-million MORE people homeless AFTER the earthquake than there was BEFORE the earthquake.
    The place was bad to begin with and is now worse.

    Can we just say "God moves in mysterious ways" and be done with it? Because we all know that's where we're headed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    kylith wrote: »
    Saying that God lets us rule everything implies that we somehow have control over these things.

    So if I say Julius Caesar ruled the Roman Empire that somehow implies he had control of volcanoes and earthquakes in the Roman empire?

    You're just contradicting yourself now. Either the standard of living in Haiti has majorly improved OR hundreds of thousands of people are living in squalor. Which is it?

    Nope, its not an either-or question, they lived in squalor before the quake and now they still live in squalor but the standard of living has improved for them. Some would argue the emergency shelters are actually better than what they had before.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    they lived in squalor before the quake and now they still live in squalor but the standard of living has improved for them.
    194475.gif


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