Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

tayto lover · 08-02-2012 10:04pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When you pop your clogs whoever gets your house will have to pay off all you left owing. Golden circle people sign over property to family, could work for you but you might want to get legal advice on that.

Funny that. When the friends of the Govt., i.e. Bankers, Developers and Bondholders (Noonan inc) pop their clogs they will do so knowing that the citizens paid all THEIR debts. I would hate to be part of that so i'm not paying. I also fully believe that this unjust tax will be defeated by the right thinking members of the population and therefore nobody will have to pay anything "left owing".
With regards to our own finances I think the Croke Park agreement will eventually work out and combined with the cuts in budgets we will eventually get back on track.

tayto lover · 08-02-2012 10:05pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Seriously what is your problem why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to abuse and insult everyone that disagrees with you are you really that small minded.

Pot, kettle, black.

Rocket19 · 08-02-2012 10:06pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

These groups are obviously relatively prosperous compared to the other group reported on here who cannot afford the €100. If those people manage to sustain their ownership of a private house for the next year despite not being able to budget for €2 a week unfortunately they will have put themselves in the position of owing €142.

No doubt members of both groups will say "I'm not paying until Bertie goes to jail" or suchlike but this is actually not a tenable argument legally.

PS I'm writing about the €100 this year only.

I'm sure plenty of the people who oppose the household tax are not opposing it simply because they can't afford the extra €100.
Obviously on its own, €100 isn't much, but don't you see that for the mostpart, it's the principle of being forced to contribute money towards something we shouldn't be paying for? I'd like to think that people would oppose this tax regardless of whether they're in a position to afford it or not.

I'm sure for a lot of people who are already breaking their backs trying to repay debt, look after their familes, send their kids to college, etc, it is highly offensive for some people to imply that everyone can afford it - "sure it's only €2 a week". But I'd say for many, it's just yet another tax that's being added to their burden. Some people budget to fcuk, and they still come up short, so who is anyone to imply that everyone can afford it.

Not everyone who resents this is being "cheap". The household tax and peoples' opposition to it has (imo) become a microcosm for peoples' feelings about this entire mess and how we're being fcucked., over and over again. What's wrong with taking a stand against that, even if it's just a start??? The actual cheek of people to say "it's only €100". My parents are v. comfortable financially, yet they still oppose it. No-one should be paying this.
(rant wasn't really directed at you btw!)

donalg1 · 08-02-2012 10:09pm

tayto lover wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Seriously what is your problem why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to abuse and insult everyone that disagrees with you are you really that small minded.

Pot, kettle, black.

Excuse me? What makes you think I am angry or I abuse and Insult anyone and everyone that disagrees with me. Would be surprised if you could show me where I gave abused anyone.

Kinda done with you tayto tbh you lost all credibility when you began insulting me.

donalg1 · 08-02-2012 10:10pm

tayto lover wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Seriously what is your problem why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to abuse and insult everyone that disagrees with you are you really that small minded.

Pot, kettle, black.

Excuse me? What makes you think I am angry or I abuse and Insult anyone and everyone that disagrees with me. Would be surprised if you could show me where I gave abused anyone.

Kinda done with you tayto tbh you lost all credibility when you began insulting me.

lividduck · 08-02-2012 10:12pm

Rocket19 wrote: »

I'm sure plenty of the people who oppose the household tax are not opposing it simply because they can't afford the extra €100.
Obviously on its own, €100 isn't much, but don't you see that for the mostpart, it's the principle of being forced to contribute money towards something we shouldn't be paying for? I'd like to think that people would oppose this tax regardless of whether they're in a position to afford it or not.

I'm sure for a lot of people who are already breaking their backs trying to repay debt, look after their familes, send their kids to college, etc, it is highly offensive for some people to imply that everyone can afford it - "sure it's only €2 a week". But I'd say for many, it's just yet another tax that's being added to their burden. Some people budget to fcuk, and they still come up short, so who is anyone to imply that everyone can afford it.

Not everyone who resents this is being "cheap". The household tax and peoples' opposition to it has (imo) become a microcosm for peoples' feelings about this entire mess and how we're being fcucked., over and over again. What's wrong with taking a stand against that, even if it's just a start??? The actual cheek of people to say "it's only €100". My parents are v. comfortable financially, yet they still oppose it. No-one should be paying this.
(rant wasn't really directed at you btw!)

Well said, well argued.
I paid (Second thoughts creeping in)
I never considered the majority of those opposed to this tax to be cheap, and I think you may have really hit on something in saying that for many opposing this tax has become symbolic of their sentiment to the mess we are in.
Well said.

tayto lover · 08-02-2012 10:13pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Excuse me? What makes you think I am angry or I abuse and Insult anyone and everyone that disagrees with me. Would be surprised if you could show me where I gave abused anyone.

Kinda done with you tayto tbh you lost all credibility when you began insulting me.

Read back over your own posts, i'm not doing it for you.

dxhound2005 · 08-02-2012 10:22pm

Rocket19 wrote: »

I'm sure plenty of the people who oppose the household tax are not opposing it simply because they can't afford the extra €100.
Obviously on its own, €100 isn't much, but don't you see that for the mostpart, it's the principle of being forced to contribute money towards something we shouldn't be paying for? I'd like to think that people would oppose this tax regardless of whether they're in a position to afford it or not.

I'm sure for a lot of people who are already breaking their backs trying to repay debt, look after their familes, send their kids to college, etc, it is highly offensive for some people to imply that everyone can afford it - "sure it's only €2 a week". But I'd say for many, it's just yet another tax that's being added to their burden. Some people budget to fcuk, and they still come up short, so who is anyone to imply that everyone can afford it.

Not everyone who resents this is being "cheap". The household tax and peoples' opposition to it has (imo) become a microcosm for peoples' feelings about this entire mess and how we're being fcucked., over and over again. What's wrong with taking a stand against that, even if it's just a start??? The actual cheek of people to say "it's only €100". My parents are v. comfortable financially, yet they still oppose it. No-one should be paying this.
(rant wasn't really directed at you btw!)

The other part of my post pointed toward a substantial group able to afford pay TV, foreign holidays and save €200 a month. I know there are wide variations in a group of 1.6 million but add in family and we are talking maybe half the population or more here. So we can hardly think of ourselves as some put upon minority, we are the equivalent of the group in the North or England or 20 odd other EU countries who have to pay a property tax.

donalg1 · 08-02-2012 10:26pm

tayto lover wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Excuse me? What makes you think I am angry or I abuse and Insult anyone and everyone that disagrees with me. Would be surprised if you could show me where I gave abused anyone.

Kinda done with you tayto tbh you lost all credibility when you began insulting me.

Read back over your own posts, i'm not doing it for you.

Just avoiding my questions again very unsurprising indeed and true to form. What's the point in posting here if you don't want to discuss the issue in a sensible way.

tayto lover · 08-02-2012 10:26pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The other part of my post pointed toward a substantial group able to afford pay TV, foreign holidays and save €200 a month. I know there are wide variations in a group of 1.6 million but add in family and we are talking maybe half the population or more here. So we can hardly think of ourselves as some put upon minority, we are the equivalent of the group in the North or England or 20 odd other EU countries who have to pay a property tax.

You can't judge the situation that way.If they have a Property Tax do they have to also pay for services like bins and water like we will have to ? I will name just one tax that they wont have to pay nearly as much as we do - VRT. I won't even look at others yet.

The Quadratic Equation · 08-02-2012 10:36pm

donalg1 wrote: »

Seriously what is your problem why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to abuse and insult everyone that disagrees with you are you really that small minded.

I watched the corrupt golden circle in this country destroy the lives of my close friends and famaily, apologists for these corrupt scumbags, such as yourself, are just their jock straps as far as I'm concerned.

"Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men’s desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants… hypocrites… liars!"

The Rebel, by Patrick Pearse

steve9859 · 08-02-2012 10:37pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You can't judge the situation that way.If they have a Property Tax do they have to also pay for services like bins and water like we will have to ? I will name just one tax that they wont have to pay nearly as much as we do - VRT. I won't even look at others yet.

maybe not, but their property tax or its equivalent runs into four figures! We are talking €2 a week here!!

You look at any of the forums talking about emigrating to the UK, and the overwhelming consensus is that the Irish are undertaxed! It is used as one of the arguments on after hours, among other forums, about downsides of moving to the UK.

The Irish at the moment certainly do not pay the taxes paid in other countries for these services.

dxhound2005 · 08-02-2012 10:40pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You can't judge the situation that way.If they have a Property Tax do they have to also pay for services like bins and water like we will have to ? I will name just one tax that they wont have to pay nearly as much as we do - VRT. I won't even look at others yet.

I know the Domestic Rates in the North cover refuse collection and water. But the rate is determined by reference to property. We had the same system here before a misguided decision sought to cover all expenditure through income tax. This has predictably unwound gradually to the point where we all now pay for a privatised refuse collection service and we can expect to have our water supply metered (which I think is a very sound idea). The enormous takings from stamp duty over a period recently masked the folly of trying to rely on income tax for everything.

K-9 · 08-02-2012 10:42pm

black francis wrote: »

is balancing our budget stupid?

Nope but apparently this tax is about the bondholders, the €18 Billion deficit, without bank bail outs, seems to have disappeared.

Being able to fund our day to day spending is the best chance we have to be able to renotiate the banking loans we have unjustly been required to take on.

Indeed, our 2 year borrowing rates have come down from over 10% to under 5% in a few months. Some people seem to think there is hope!

The thing is I agree with some proposals of the anti tax crowd, we do need to cut waste in public spending and try to grow jobs, unfortunately we also need to broaden our tax base, nobody arguing for this tax actually wants to pay, we just recognise the reality of our situation.

Agreed, I myself would prefer they just raised income tax and stopped the pretence, but the PD policy of the 80's has seeped into nearly every area of politics here, even Labour and SF proposed cuts to Income Taxes in the last election. Income taxes cannot be touched apparently!

Anyway, this thread has just become pages of insults, and i'm begining to repeat myself - I'm signing off for a bit.

Aye, even lost the entertainment value at this stage.

donalg1 · 08-02-2012 10:44pm

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Seriously what is your problem why are you so angry? Why do you feel the need to abuse and insult everyone that disagrees with you are you really that small minded.

I watched the corrupt golden circle in this country destroy the lives of my close friends and famaily, apologists for these corrupt scumbags, such as yourself, are just their jock straps as far as I'm concerned.
"Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men’s desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants… hypocrites… liars!"

The Rebel, by Patrick Pearse

So now I'm a corrupt scumbag good lad. Think you should seek help for your issues there.

Can you please explain how I am a corrupt scumbag and please try do do without any abuse or insults if you think you can manage. And please elaborate on what I did to harm your friends or family?

What is your point again the abuse you spout is clouding it.

lividduck · 08-02-2012 10:48pm

steve9859 wrote: »

maybe not, but their property tax or its equivalent runs into four figures! We are talking €2 a week here!!

You look at any of the forums talking about emigrating to the UK, and the overwhelming consensus is that the Irish are undertaxed! It is used as one of the arguments on after hours, among other forums, about downsides of moving to the UK.

The Irish at the moment certainly do not pay the taxes paid in other countries for these services.

I lived in France, Holland and the UK and yes I paid higher taxes than here.
BUT I GOT SERVICES FOR THEM! Like the NHS (no €55 euro to see the doctor or €100 for presenting at A&E), I got my bins collected! I got leisure centres, lots of well maintained parks and public spaces, I got cheap and regular public transport, well equipped schools..etc etc.
Here i get to pay taxes, USC, PRSI, and Bins, Doctors,health insurance, €100's in "voluntary" contributions to primary and secondary schools, no park, litter strewn streets, and poxy amenities.
Give me the services and I will happily pay for them.

K-9 · 08-02-2012 10:52pm

steve9859 wrote: »

maybe not, but their property tax or its equivalent runs into four figures! We are talking €2 a week here!!

You look at any of the forums talking about emigrating to the UK, and the overwhelming consensus is that the Irish are undertaxed! It is used as one of the arguments on after hours, among other forums, about downsides of moving to the UK.

The Irish at the moment certainly do not pay the taxes paid in other countries for these services.

The UK is a great comparison of the mess we are in.

I remember the 80's and early 90's and tax rates of 55/65% and PRSI on top, would make the Anti campaigners cross their legs!

The North was way more favourable. Fast forward 20 years and tax and PRSI contributions were far lower here, but yet welfare and PS pay far higher.

Unfortunately we are trying to raise taxes and cut expenditure in a recession, so any revenues raised are just covering gaping holes in budgets, not creating anything, jobs or extra services. These extra taxes are payback for a Government and nearly all political party agendas, lowering taxes to an unsustainable extent and promising the best services in Europe.

It's a double whammy. Low Income Taxes only work if you are stringent on expenditure. High expenditure only works if you've high taxes. Ireland has spectacularly missed 2 pretty basic points in Economics.

xii · 08-02-2012 10:56pm

I'm not reading 175+ pages of posts and retorts and surely this must have been said but....

I am not going to register and pay simply because I do not know about it,

I do not watch TV
I do not browse the internet

I do not read newspapers.
I recycle before reading anything posted to me that is not addressed to me.

Slick50 · 08-02-2012 11:11pm

K-9 wrote: »

Unfortunately we are trying to raise taxes and cut expenditure in a recession, so any revenues raised are just covering gaping holes in budgets, not creating anything, jobs or extra services. These extra taxes are payback for a Government and nearly all political party agendas, lowering taxes to an unsustainable extent and promising the best services in Europe.

So the government need to raise more money.

Can you tell us why it is neccesary to attach any charge to a persons home. (without going up the fields to reminisce again) And how is it going to be equitable, especially when they start to ramp up the cost, as promised. Basing it on house value, or site value does not take into account ability, or not, to pay

K-9 · 08-02-2012 11:33pm

Slick50 wrote: »

So the government need to raise more money.

Can you tell us why it is neccesary to attach any charge to a persons home. (without going up the fields to reminisce again) And how is it going to be equitable, especially when they start to ramp up the cost, as promised. Basing it on house value, or site value does not take into account ability, or not, to pay

The ability to pay part is a huge problem. I can't see how people on welfare can be expected to pay this, that opens the whole, I'm on minimum wage debate................

Why it's neccesary to attach a charge? Not a new thing. Debts are attached to property as a matter of routine, moreso these days.

As for equitability? Name me a tax that is.

Going Forward · 09-02-2012 12:02am

Rocket19 wrote: »

I'm sure plenty of the people who oppose the household tax are not opposing it simply because they can't afford the extra €100.
Obviously on its own, €100 isn't much, but don't you see that for the mostpart, it's the principle of being forced to contribute money towards something we shouldn't be paying for? I'd like to think that people would oppose this tax regardless of whether they're in a position to afford it or not.

I'm sure for a lot of people who are already breaking their backs trying to repay debt, look after their familes, send their kids to college, etc, it is highly offensive for some people to imply that everyone can afford it - "sure it's only €2 a week". But I'd say for many, it's just yet another tax that's being added to their burden. Some people budget to fcuk, and they still come up short, so who is anyone to imply that everyone can afford it.

Not everyone who resents this is being "cheap". The household tax and peoples' opposition to it has (imo) become a microcosm for peoples' feelings about this entire mess and how we're being fcucked., over and over again. What's wrong with taking a stand against that, even if it's just a start??? The actual cheek of people to say "it's only €100". My parents are v. comfortable financially, yet they still oppose it. No-one should be paying this.
(rant wasn't really directed at you btw!)

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here too.

IMO people are reluctant to "march" in protest over anything nowadays due to fear of such events being taken over by violent incidents.

This "wont pay" sentiment is something of a protest, so far, but I do fear that the consequences of not registering and complying will begin to be trotted out soon and in threatening detail.

People do not want a criminal conviction over this either.

Havent read every page of this thread, but has any reliable legal advice been given about this aspect?

dxhound2005 · 09-02-2012 12:17am

Going Forward wrote: »

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here too.

IMO people are reluctant to "march" in protest over anything nowadays due to fear of such events being taken over by violent incidents.

This "wont pay" sentiment is something of a protest, so far, but I do fear that the consequences of not registering and complying will begin to be trotted out soon and in threatening detail.

People do not want a criminal conviction over this either.

Havent read every page of this thread, but has any reliable legal advice been given about this aspect?

If you want to acquaint yourself with all aspects of the legislation best place to start is with the Act itself. This is not legal advice.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2011/7411/b7411s.pdf

The part about the unpaid charge being placed on the title of the property is on page 13 extract here.

(2) Where a relevant local authority receives payment in full of a
household charge, all related late payment fees and late payment
interest in respect of a residential property, it shall, on application to
it in writing by or on behalf of the owner of the residential property, within 14 days, give that owner a certificate (in this section referred
to as a “certificate of discharge”) confirming that the household
charge in respect of the year concerned has been paid and that no
late payment fee or late payment interest is due or owing in respect
of the property for that year.
(3) The vendor of a residential property shall, before the completion
of the sale of the property, pay to the relevant local authority
all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest
due and owing to the relevant local authority in respect of that residential
property.
(4) On or before the completion of the sale of a residential property,
the vendor of that residential property shall, in respect of that
residential property, give to the purchaser—
(a) a certificate of discharge,
(b) a certificate of exemption, or
(c) a certificate of waiver,
as may be appropriate, in respect of each year in which a liability
date fell since the date of the last sale of the property.

tayto lover · 09-02-2012 12:39am

Going Forward wrote: »

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here too.

IMO people are reluctant to "march" in protest over anything nowadays due to fear of such events being taken over by violent incidents.

This "wont pay" sentiment is something of a protest, so far, but I do fear that the consequences of not registering and complying will begin to be trotted out soon and in threatening detail.

People do not want a criminal conviction over this either.

Havent read every page of this thread, but has any reliable legal advice been given about this aspect?

If people refuse to pay then it will be impossible to make them. They can't bring 1.4 million people they don't know to court. Even if they could find out who they are they are still powerless if people refuse to pay. Prisons already full and if they put it down to be collected from the estate of the deceased householder I can see bright solicitors tying them up in knots over it. It is a stupid law which I believe will fail if people make a stance and refuse to pay.

Going Forward · 09-02-2012 12:50am

tayto lover wrote: »

If people refuse to pay then it will be impossible to make them. They can't bring 1.4 million people they don't know to court. Even if they could find out who they are they are still powerless if people refuse to pay. Prisons already full and if they put it down to be collected from the estate of the deceased householder I can see bright solicitors tying them up in knots over it. It is a stupid law which I believe will fail if people make a stance and refuse to pay.

There are more tools at their disposal than prison though. That would be the very last resort.

Its going to depend on the individuals' circumstances really as to how to approach it, if you're a high profile independent TD you'll wallow in the limelight of a court case, and be sure of being re-elected; however if you dont want your reputation being sullied it may just be better to cough up!

How would ordinary Joes afford solicitors even?
It is sickening but I see no way around it.

I dont have a problem paying 100e but when this thing turns into a full blown property tax it WILL send a load of people already on the edge into mortgage arrears etc.

Apart from anything else its quite obvious that just because someone has a large house or site does not automatically mean that they also (now) have an equally large income!

Potatoeman · 09-02-2012 12:51am

The first question I ask anyone that says they are not paying is did you vote for fianna fáil? If yes pay up as they caused this mess. Did you vote for fianna gael? If yes pay up as this is how tax get collected when taxes are not raised.

Am Chile · 09-02-2012 12:55am

Going Forward wrote: »

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here too.

IMO people are reluctant to "march" in protest over anything nowadays due to fear of such events being taken over by violent incidents.

This "wont pay" sentiment is something of a protest, so far, but I do fear that the consequences of not registering and complying will begin to be trotted out soon and in threatening detail.

People do not want a criminal conviction over this either.

Havent read every page of this thread, but has any reliable legal advice been given about this aspect?

I was at an anti household tax public meeting recently attended by over 500,if anyone doubts the level of public anger over the household tax, come along to one of your local anti household tax public meetings and see the level of anger that,s out there, one man in the audience who I suspect was a fine gael shill stood up and started saying not paying was breaking the law and there would be fines and maybe jail for not paying, he was quickly told to shut up by members of the audience and asked who he represented, which he wouldn,t answer, the goverment can make threats all they want, people have had enough and won,t be paying this household tax.

Am Chile · 09-02-2012 12:56am

Potatoeman wrote: »

The first question I ask anyone that says they are not paying is did you vote for fianna fáil? If yes pay up as they caused this mess. Did you vote for fianna gael? If yes pay up as this is how tax get collected when taxes are not raised.

IM not paying and I never once in my life voted fianna fail.

The Quadratic Equation · 09-02-2012 12:58am

K-9 wrote: »

Nope but apparently this tax is about the bondholders, the €18 Billion deficit, without bank bail outs, seems to have disappeared.

Yes because the bailouts are about a corrupt €250 billion taxpayers bailout for the private speculation debts of a select few in the Irish golden circle via SCAMA, corrupt bankers, corrupt politicians, and the bondholders that now own them. Who are these secret bondholders, who are their directors ? ? ? ?

Am Chile · 09-02-2012 12:58am

Going Forward wrote: »

There are more tools at their disposal than prison though. That would be the very last resort.

Its going to depend on the individuals' circumstances really as to how to approach it, if you're a high profile independent TD you'll wallow in the limelight of a court case, and be sure of being re-elected; however if you dont want your reputation being sullied it may just be better to cough up!

How would ordinary Joes afford solicitors even?
It is sickening but I see no way around it.

I hope you remember the last anti water charges campaign, a lot of people went to court over it, a lot will be willing to go to court over this too.

The Quadratic Equation · 09-02-2012 1:01am

donalg1 wrote: »

So now I'm a corrupt scumbag good lad. Think you should seek help for your issues there.

Can you please explain how I am a corrupt scumbag and please try do do without any abuse or insults if you think you can manage. And please elaborate on what I did to harm your friends or family?

What is your point again the abuse you spout is clouding it.

Before you get ideas above your station, read the post, I never said you were a corrupt scumbag, I said you are merely their pathetic jock strap, but now I'm thinking your only one of their dried up arse clinkers. Keep typing for upper mount street, there's a good girl, we know you're paid by the post.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Comments