The Status Of Irish.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Would be totally in favour of dropping Irish at secondary school level, I absolutely hated Irish when I was in school, and I don't think anyone should be forced to take a subject the hate. Its too easy to find an excuse to not like school when you are a teenager without the state handing you a reason like making you do Irish.

I assume you feel the same for English and Maths. Students hate them too.

Its a pointless subject for alot of people when they are a teenager and when they become an adult they can take it back up without difficulty if it becomes important to them.

Indeed it is, But that is due to poor curriculum and teaching methods that fail to achieve results, Not Its Compulsory status, Would you concede that it would not be pointless if people came out with a solid working knowlage of the language.

Secondary schools should strive to make students enjoy or perhaps even love the learning experience, this wont happen when they are forced to do a subject which they may veiw completely pointless.

Indeed, that is why I favor a major reform in how Irish I tought, However I ask again Would you concede that if the subject is reformed and succeeds in making students competent in the language that the perception of pointlessness would disappear

Some people have a natural inclination towards languages, others towards music, others towards science, making teenagers do something they don't want to do, when there are other subjects they may prefer makes them dislike the subject all the more, no matter what way it is thought.

The evidience suggests otherwise, If a language is tought properly then people will be able to learn it, The Gaelscoileanna have proven that. There is no reason the same cant apply more generally, The population of the Gaelscoileanna is no different to the rest of the school population and they can handle two and more languages once they are tought properly.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This solution idea. People not speaking Irish isn't seen as a problem by most. If it was they'd be learning Irish.

That is a falicy, The majority want Irish to be preserved and Promoted,
'They' have other things to be doing. Again though, that is delt with in the article, you seam to expect the majority to learn the language out of love for it, and if they dont you see it as evidience that they dont care about it. The evidience i have shown clearly states that is not the case.

I think Junior cert English is sufficient for English skills. Leaving cert English is a literature study not learning a language.

To what end, Surely such Literature study has no tangible benefit, to the student or the state, certainly not enough to justify it being a compulsory subject?

I know so. Everyone in school used to say "what's the point in doing this class" and resented the fact it was compulsory

Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion, They were resentful sure but not over some liberal principle that they should have a choice, They resented being forced to do something Pointless, Not that they were forced to do something.

Not to the same extent because they see more of a point to those subjects.

My point exactly, They dont mind as they can see their time is not being wasted, So, do you believe students would see it as a time waste if they emerged from it with a solid working knowlage of the language instead of the cúpla focal as is the case now? I dont.

Because I believe the people in charge are elitist snobs who would prefer to have a minority of people speaking fluent Irish and studying higher level(which is extemely difficult) than everyone speaking it to a reasonable level. They're afraid they'll have to dumb down the higher level subject if less people do the subject.

And why do you think making it optional in the face of these elitist snobs would be any easier than reform? Bearing in mind that it is the Irish language 'lobby' its self that is actively pressing for reform.
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I don't believe you. Have a glance at the papers and you'll see there's very little difference. Plus they go out of their way to make sure everyone passes.

Im sure they do as failing Irish means failing the LC. Not something a corrector wants to do to a student.
That has little relevance to this debate as I am not arguing in Favor of the System as it is now, Just against the idea that making Irish is some kind of magic wand that will fix everything.

Saying "people want the language promoted" is not a choice. I meant a personal choice on which subjects they want to do at leaving cert level.

I know, but I don't buy the concept that there must to be choice there.

Well this is the reason Irish students can't get into many chemistry based courses in the UK. Having 6 subjects because 3 of em are compulsory means you can't go into the finer details in specific subjects where necessary

Most comment I have heard suggests that for all its faults the Irish Education System is better than the British one, It produces a more well rounded student and that Third level courses in Ireland are more demanding than their British Equivalent. I am of course wide open to correction of that, but that is what I have heard.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

All subjects are victim to the points system.
I dropped German at Junior level and kept on French for the Leaving, primarily due to points. I wanted to do both, but I had to keep Irish.

If you want to fix the points system - fix the points system.
Making Irish compulsory is not the solution, as the limited number of Irish speakers proves.

The points system is a problem, and dose its self need to be reformed, However it is not the only factor. You have simply jumped to the conclusion you wanted, If you look at it objectively it is clear that poor curriculum and teaching methods are the root cause of Irish not being widely spoken, As we have seen, when Irish is compulsory, but tought correctly, as is the case in the Gaelscoileanna then students have no problem developing an ability to speak Irish competently and also develop a love for the language too.

Yea sure, I don't see a problem with English being optional post Junior level, if you do not have sufficient English to communicate at Junior level, then it is the system which needs to be reformed.
If we reformed the teaching of English at primary level, it could be entirely optional at secondary level also.
I personally do not see a problem with this - English is a functional language, this is why it is important.

Not when English is the language of the home, As the System weather good bad or otherwise dose not hamper the ability of someone who can speak Irish from home.

(While we are at it, I studied Maths up to degree level for Comp Sci, did Honours for leaving (Hons Gaeilge too) and Maths desperately needs to be reformed also, so much unnecessary junk in there that should be learned only at college level if relevant)

I have no problem with that, I think the important think to bear in mind is that if reformed properly, Irish over time could end up taking less up time as other subjects could, once the system is worked out, be tought through Irish, Subjects such as PE. This would mean that less dedicated time would needed for Irish classroom work.

Not true.
It is lower status to English in functionally English speaking countries such as Ireland.
Not in Germany, Not in France, Not in Russia etc.
In those countries, Irish is lower status to the functional language of those countries.
English would be at best even par, but that's merely a notion, it is lower status also.

In general terms English Is the Higest Status Language, In so far as A third party is more likely to choose English as a second language than German for example. You are of course right in saying that in Germany, German would be the Highest status language.

It is lower status in Ireland because the functional language is English.
That is not going to change unless the functional language becomes Irish again (considering the economic catastrophe we are in, that is not going to change in the next 50 years)

Irish is already a functional language in the Gaelthachts and among groups who choose Irish over English,
However English Is the Higher status language generally, and there in lies the problem, If you want to increase the use of Irish then Compulsion in School is a necessary as otherwise, as the evidence has shown, large numbers will not learn it due to love of the language, That is not to say the majority don't want to learn Irish, It just means that as a group they wont do so in Sufficient numbers. There are many reasons for this, Ultimatly, it comes down to that while they may want to, they dont need to and then as a result of the distractions inherent in adult life, they dont. That is why it is necessary to teach it in School;.

Missing the point completely.
If it were not compulsory, you wouldn't have to learn it as it is now.
You're putting the cart before the horse.

Very much not im afraid, Again the problem is not Compulsion, but Curriculum, That may not automatically change if it is made optional, in fact it most likely wont, And that is ignoring the damaging domino effect that would then go through the education system, marginalizing Irish even further.

Personally I wanted to study German and French at leaving cert level, rather than Irish. I got better points in Irish than I probably would have in German anyway, but I had more than enough points and the German would have been vastly more useful when I got to college and industry (plus my brother in law is German, lol)

But there you go, The points system at work, With the added restriction that you cant actually choose whatever you want, It boils down to the list of options that dont clash with each other, so there will be those who would want to do Irish not being able to due to it clashing with other subjects they want.

And I at the very beginning - I asked you, how did you come to this realisation?
How do you know that the majority want Irish to be preserved?
I've only ever heard 2 people say it and both of those people are employed via Irish (one is a lecturer/research and one is a teacher)

Epsos, mrsi study. The one Cyclopath is hell bent on claiming was conducted and manipulated by the Irish language Lobby.

When I was at school, we were taught religion etc.
Some students were subject to this, others exempt.
Same should apply to Irish.

Why? I dont agree, The Evidence I have seen suggests that the (vast) majority want Irish preserved and Promoted, and that Making it optional would be devastating to that.

Religion Should be optional though.

Granted, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.
There are certain reasons why Maths and English need to be taught to a certain standard, as it has lifelong implications.
If we are failing to do that, then we should reform those systems as a matter of urgency, and non-priority subjects like Irish can become optional.

Indeed, But that standard is reached long before the LC course starts, But still I believe that these subjects should remain compulsory,(With due Reform) For the LC. Not because they are needed from a utilitarian perspective, but for their role in forming the person.

By whom?
In that case, why are French and German not compulsory in Ireland?

They effectively are, except its French or German, (or in some schools Spanish)

That entirely depends on your personal perspective.
I happen to agree with your perspective, but I'm conscious of the fact that there is an opportunity cost.

Nor does it directly correlate to points opportunism, it could simply be a student selecting a more relevant subject for them.[/QUOTE]

But the thing is, student do get to choose the majority of there subjects,
There is an opportunity cost, But from what I have seen, The penalty of making Irish optional is sealing the fate of its slow decline, At best, the continuance of its stay on 'Life Support' till another backward step is taken to finish it. And from the evidence I have seen, That is not what the people want.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

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Don't buy that for a second. If you love the language you will learn it. Loads of people in Belfast are taking it up at all ages. I think you need to realise a lot of people don't care as much about the language as they say they do.

Indeed, and it is great to see it, But it cant be denied(though in other threads I would) There is extra motivation in Belfast than Here to take an interest in the language.

That article you've posted is sensationalist tripe which doesn't compare like for like. I'm up to page 12 and the arrogance of the man is driving me nuts. The dropping of GCSE compulsory languages is not a valid comparison, it is more like our Junior cert. Also Irish people have a bigger connection to Gaelic than English kids do to foreign languages. Its just a cheapshot and the fact he couldn't come up with anything better shows how petty his agenda is.

Perhaps if that was the only relevant evidence he put forward, but the expert opinion agrees with his argument, Large amounts of people will not learn a language simply for the love of it, That is why the System failed after Independance, It was assumed that love of the language would revive it, that was not the case

Of course not. People are always goign to be interested in literature. Look at how many people do it here and in the UK where English is not compulsory for A-levels.

Here its compulsory, In the UK? I dont know, I have not seen the figures, but I have yet to meet someone who gained a deep love or appreciation for the Bard during the LC.

It would still be pointless to many even if it were taught better for those 2 years. Those people have the right to that choice if you're ok with democracy.

Not only for those two years, Again, see the OP, I provided a link to the Plan I believe would best see Irish tought Effectively, That plan is about the reform of Irish in its entirety, Not just for the LC. As for Democracy? Come now, Leave the Hyperbole aside.

If it were optional and they kept it the same huge numbers would drop it. To prevent that they'd have to change the system.

Why the roundabout rout? Reforming the System is the obvious solution. The problem is that it will be a political decision, Making it optional is the headline, not reform.
In any case, as was shown in Britain, it dident matter how much they tried to reform or encourage students to take up languages, Once it was made optional the floodgates were open and it continued to decline.

Its relevant because it shows making it optional for the final two years would make no difference to people's ability to use the language.

Not really, As it is now not much is learned, However, I am not arguing In favor of the current system remaining in place, I want reform of the System.

Right. Most people are generally in favour of personal choice for most things. Perhaps this is the real root of the argument.

Not really, You have failed to show substantial benefit form choice, and most people dont have a problem with Compulsion per se, rather with the poor curriculum. If compulsion its self it would be a problem across the board, not just for Irish.


Aye so much so that the tanaiste is urging universities to recognise a fail in higher maths as an acceptable grade to get in. There's no evidence for this well rounded student idea, the British system makes far more sense.[/QUOTE]

But the question isent about individual faults in Either system, How dose one compare against the other in overall performance.
Of course there is room to improve the system, If there wasent we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Link to the survay I mentioned. Link

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Relevant article from today's Irish Times

Kind of odd, if the langauge is 'undergoing an undoubted resurgence in popularity', that the number of people who want to speak it has halved?

It seems that the commissioner is just as perplexed by reality as the pro-compulsion posters here.

Where dose it say the numbers wanting to speak it have halved?

I believe he is referencing the growth of Irish medium Education and the positive attuide of the Irish population tword the language.