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Landlord rights
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02-07-2012 8:58pm#1I'm not looking for any legal loopholes, just a bit of advice. My partner owns a 3 bed semi-detached house in Athy, Co. Kildare which he rents out as we live and work in Dublin. (sorry bit of a long one)
My bf used a woman who was setting up a new agency for sourcing tenants and she found this girl. She didnt tell us about the PRTB so we knew nothing about this and didnt register her. this woman is now avoiding us.
This tenant moved out today 2nd July 2012. She was a young woman in her early twenties and her rent was part paid by the HSE. She was to pay the balance into my partners account.
She lived there from April last year. At first she was fine and paid us. Then the payments from the HSE and from her stopped for nearly 5 months. We had to pay the mortgage and our own rent during that time. My partner got the HSE payments sorted. His tenant stopped answering her phone and would change her Mobile number on a frequent basis. We would call down only to be given excuse after excuse. She was due to move out in April and only moved out today. We were down three weeks ago and the house was fine.
When my partner went down with a friend of his after work she had left. She destroyed his house. The side gate is broken, light fixtures have been pulled off the walls, furniture has been smashed up. A radiator has been pulled off the wall in the kitchen.. There are holes in the walls in most bedrooms. There's approximately 6 months worth of rubbish in the back garden and the sitting room is covered in urine. The furniture is covered in urine and unusable.
She's gone and we've been told its not a criminal matter. It's civil. since we didn't register her with the PRTB we can't go to them. What do we do as we're fairly broke as it is. The house has landlord insurance but I don't know if that will cover us.
She has been given a brand new house, we don't know where, by social welfare and has left us with a massive bill for all the damage caused.
Any advice is appreciated.Tagged:0
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I don't mean to sound harsh but if you are running a business you need to make sure you have the right knowledge. I assume you are fully aware of the tax implications and/or have run it by an accountant.
That all said the PRTB would be little use in this situation. 1) they are pretty slow to respond by all accounts. 2) she's on the social so I assume has no money. No point in persuing someone with no means to pay you. Bear in mind you are legally obliged to be registered with them though.
EDIT sorry I read it as 3 houses. Most of the above still applies - like everything dont go with the first or cheapest option. Go though a couple of letting agencies and make sure you explain you are new.
EDIT 2: A random thought there might be some comeback though the HSE? Maybe try speaking to them.0 -
Thanks, I'm going to send a letter in to HSE with pictures. Apparently I was misinformed and my bf signed up with PRTB 3 months ago. Forgot to tell me.
I don't expect to get any money but it's unfair that she can destroy someone's property and not be held accountable0 -
Criminal damage is a criminal matter. Whoever told you otherwise is incorrect.0
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Set the rent (although the rent cannot be more than the current market rate. See Rent Increases in Ireland)
Receive the correct rent on the date it is due
Receive any charges associated with the property (this means taxes and duties or payments)
Review the rent annually
Terminate a tenancy without giving a reason during the first six months
Be informed who is ordinarily living in the property (this does not include overnight visitors or short stays)
Decide whether to allow the tenant to sub-let or assign a tenancy (however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date)
Be informed of any repairs needed
Be given reasonable access to the property to carry out repairs
Refer disputes to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) if the tenancy is registered with them.
You do not have the right to:
Enter your tenants’ home without permission
Take or retain your tenants’ property – even if they haven’t paid the rent
Charge more than the market rate for the property
Penalise tenants for bringing a dispute to the PRTB.0 -
I've no idea what the copy and paste above is meant to achieve, but I agree with MagicSean. Some of the issues are certainly civil, but busting someone's house up is a criminal matter and should be reporting it to the Gardai asap if it's going to be pursued. It might also help with tracking the, uh, miscreant down. They sound like a right charmer.
To a certain extent the landlord should shoulder some of the blame, like a lot of silly amateurs that didn't research the business - and it is a business - properly, but there's no excuse for tearing up someone's place. Make the tenant pay for it, even if it's just with a conviction.
They've documented and photographed /everything/?0 -
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Did you pay the woman who sourced the tenant? Did you have any kind of contract with her?0
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legallyblonde86 wrote: »Thanks, I'm going to send a letter in to HSE with pictures. Apparently I was misinformed and my bf signed up with PRTB 3 months ago. Forgot to tell me.
I don't expect to get any money but it's unfair that she can destroy someone's property and not be held accountable
As GCDlawstudent says, renting is a business whether you have one property or numerous ones. It is also a business in the eyes of the revenue.
As you are running a business, it is up to you to know the laws relating to that business. You should know how to keep on top of rent and any rent arrears should be dealt with immediately.
The law allows you to "inspect" your property from time to time which you seem to have failed to do. (Apologies - from re-reading your post, I see that the house was OK three weeks ago).
However, you are not alone in your situation of tenants damaging properties - however, in very few cases has the landlord been able to recoup the cost of the damages caused, especially if the tenant was claiming rent allowance. This is usually an big indicator that the tenant does not have money and any claim would really not provide you with any financial recompense.
IMHO, you will have to put this one down to experience (or inexperience).0 -
legallyblonde86 wrote: »Any advice is appreciated.
You've been burned and there isn't much you can do, or is worthwhile doing. Your tenant must have really hated you.
If you're renting a house, you run the risk of getting a bad tenant.
It's surprising the number of people who walked into becoming BuyToLet landlords without having their eyes open.
You have to expect to decorate the house regularly. Why should the tenant? Avoid carpets - have wood floors they're very hard to wreck and look good as new after a little cleaning - even if they're urinated on, a quick wipe with a mop is all it will take. And the same thing to think about when getting furniture - cheap, simple and sturdy - but expect wear and tear. Paint instead of wall paper - and keep some of the paint as the wall may just need a touch up and not an entire paint job. Keep spare paint for everything.
You should expect the house to be empty for periods of months. The rent should always be more than the mortgage so you can build up cash for covering the empty period and for decorating and upkeep - and for when things go wrong.
Visit your tenants regularly. And always be nice - don't play the fat paddy looking down your nose at the dirty people who have to rent. Who should be grateful for "the service" you're providing. They know they're paying the mortgage on the house - they know that all you did to get the house was fill out a few mortgage forms - and at the end of it you'll have a free house. Piss them off there's a good chance they'll wreck the house.
I know it's hard for many Irish people, give them the chance they love to lord it over other people and look down their noses. But you just have to keep yourself under control.
But if you think you're hard done by. I've been through just as bad or worse with landlords. I have only managed to get my deposit back about half the time - and it's nothing to with the state of the house I'm leaving. Many landlords (including my parents who are landlords - believe they are entitled to keep the deposit regardless of circumstances). I've never had the experience where the landlord has just handed back the deposit without a struggle.
As for the state of places. One time I had to move in a hurry - grabbed the first room I could get. Which was in a terrible state - a children's room. Wallpaper hanging off the wall - crayon all over it. It was a house share - and the landlord was an arsehole -there was faulty boiler and the people in the house couldn't get him to get it fixed - really what he was trying to do was make the people in the house pay for it. When I find another place to live - I ask for my deposit. And no....He says I have to get someone to replace me...
So. I had to redecorate the room -out of my own pocket. Strip all the wall paper. Fix all the holes in the wall and ceiling. And paint the room. I scrubbed all the stains out of the carpet - that had nothing to do with me. I had to put the ad in DAFT, and show the house. Then when I get someone, I get my deposit back - less the expense of decorating.She has been given a brand new house, we don't know where, by social welfare and has left us with a massive bill for all the damage caused.
The social welfare have "given" her a brand new house. These social welfare recipients aren't they terrible parasites. "Given" a brand new house.
That's not really what's happening. Your tenant has moved to new rented accommodation. And the health board will pay rent to the BuyToLet Landlord. Just someone else, just like you. Someone who filled out a few mortgages forms, bought a house - thought the money would roll in without any effort - at the end they'd have a free house and a pension (they richly deserved for their innate worth - because they're worth it). They may be about to get burned too.
But tough, even if getting burned costs a few grand in the overall scheme, the landlord is still getting a house for free.
The rent for most of the rental accommodation in Ireland is paid for by the Health Board. BuyToLet land lords are the greatest recipients of social welfare in the country. The vast majority of BuyToLet landlords got free money from the bank - and social welfare is paying the mortgage.
"Providing a service" my arse.
If all that money that was pissed up against a wall on property had been applied to productive business and enterprise instead of giving it people who thought they could get rich sitting on their fat arses. We would be the richest country in the world by now.0 -
Criminal damage is criminal damage, so report it to the Gardai and have them follow it up with a prosecution. If this person did this to your property, chances are they'll do it to the next person, too.
Get a solicitor to follow up with the tenant, the agent and the HSE to try to recoup your losses.0 -
Criminal damage is criminal damage, so report it to the Gardai and have them follow it up with a prosecution. If this person did this to your property, chances are they'll do it to the next person, too.
Get a solicitor to follow up with the tenant, the agent and the HSE to try to recoup your losses.
Had a similar situation where it cost me over €8,000 I didn't have to restore a property to rentable condition. PTRB are useless, don't even waste your time going through them even if you're fully registered and have all of your documentation and ducks in a row. I spoke with them at length about my case. Wait times to hear cases in Sept. of last year were 11months, Can't imagine they'd be much better now.
Tried to go criminal route but my tennant was due to be EXTRADITED(!!!) for identity fraud amongst other crimes and Gardai advised me he'd be gone long before my criminal case would be heard.
Still gave all of the supporting documents and evidence. Pics are awful, upsets me to even think of them, let alone look at them.
As for the €8k, I had to borrow it (so it cost me more) but couldn't afford the full mortgage costs of yhe apartment sobit was the slightly lesser if 2 evils.
My advice? Keep all of your documentation. File your complaints for the record, but don't expect reimbursement.
As pointed out above too - you are legally obliged to register with the PRTB.0 -
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ButtersSuki wrote: »As for the €8k, I had to borrow it (so it cost me more) but couldn't afford the full mortgage costs of yhe apartment sobit was the slightly lesser if 2 evils.
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What the hell happened that it cost you 8 grand?
Was it stuff you could have fixed DIY?
If it was just a few holes in the plaster and a paint job you were ripped off and rode like a donkey. I know most people are crap at DIY - but I can fix a hole in plaster and it's impossible to see where the hole was after I've finished. A friend who didn't know any better, paid a bunch of chancers 12 grand to paint their house.
To cause 8 grands worth of damage in an apartment - I think I would seriously need a sledge hammer.0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »PTRB are useless, don't even waste your time going through them even if you're fully registered and have all of your documentation and ducks in a row. /QUOTE]
They are useless. I tried to go through them to get a deposit bank from a landlord - we left the house in perfect condition, the landlord was just being a scum bag. They wouldn't talk to me on the phone. They wouldn't accept email - when I sent them an email, they replied saying they wouldn't accept emails. I sent them an email saying would it be okay if I came along to their office for a chat - they replied saying they wouldn't see me.0 -
What the hell happened that it cost you 8 grand?
Was it stuff you could have fixed DIY?
If it was just a few holes in the plaster and a paint job you were ripped off and rode like a donkey. I know most people are crap at DIY - but I can fix a hole in plaster and it's impossible to see where the hole was after I've finished. A friend who didn't know any better, paid a bunch of chancers 12 grand to paint their house.
To cause 8 grands worth of damage in an apartment - I think I would seriously need a sledge hammer.
Have the pics somewhere but on an iPad and just about to sit down to dinner but amongst the "highlights" were:
Toilet in en-suite ripped out of the floor!!
Toilet in main bathroom sledgehammered in half, i.e broken bowl in the floor only remaining part left
Brick (Gardai suspect) dropped through glass kitchen table
Same brick dropped onto stairs from next floor - full stairs had to be replaced - the apartment was own-door and penthouse - 6 flights of stairs over 3 floors. Only the corners could be saved.
One third of kitchen units had to be replaced due to flooding - sink left on deliberately night before the Gardai finally removed him
All carpets had to be replaced due to this flood damage but would likely have to have been replaced due to staining anyway - from beer stains and ground up hash forced into the carpet
Fridge and freezer had to have all interior shelves replaced due to being smashed - was kinda shocked he didn't smash the fridge
All kitchen chairs smashed beyond repair
All cutlery and small items (incl. a less than year old and i imagine never used Dyson Hoover) were not found
Couldn't even count the number of holes in the walls
All curtain rails torn out of the wall
That's off the top of my head! There is way more.
Have you seen 80s movie "Pacific Heights"? well, that's what it was like.
I did well to come in at €8k. Got the whole place replastered and painted for less than a grand (incl. all materials) from a mate. Replaced the furniture at pretty much wholesale prices or better through end of line reductions etc., calling in favours etc.
Went to great lengths to do it as cost efficiently as possible.I could have done it any cheaper I would have, but I doubt it.0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »Toilet in en-suite ripped out of the floor!!
Toilet in main bathroom sledgehammered in half, i.e broken bowl in the floor only remaining part left
Brick (Gardai suspect) dropped through glass kitchen table
Same brick dropped onto stairs from next floor - full stairs had to be replaced - the apartment was own-door and penthouse - 6 flights of stairs over 3 floors. Only the corners could be saved.
One third of kitchen units had to be replaced due to flooding - sink left on deliberately night before the Gardai finally removed him
All carpets had to be replaced due to this flood damage but would likely have to have been replaced due to staining anyway - from beer stains and ground up hash forced into the carpet
Fridge and freezer had to have all interior shelves replaced due to being smashed - was kinda shocked he didn't smash the fridge
All kitchen chairs smashed beyond repair
All cutlery and small items (incl. a less than year old and i imagine never used Dyson Hoover) were not found
Couldn't even count the number of holes in the walls
All curtain rails torn out of the wall
That's off the top of my head! There is way more.
Holy shit.............You got really burned.
Like I said....To do 8 grands worth of damage, I'd need a sledge hammer.
What happened to you is actually very rare. And he should have been prosecuted for that. I'd say he was a wonderful neighbour too.was kinda shocked he didn't smash the fridge
Then where would he have kept his beer chilled?the apartment was own-door and penthouse - 6 flights of stairs over 3 floors.
Sounds like an nice apartment too.
On a much lesser note. Someone I knew was renting an apartment. The tenants were being a bit flaky - so he asked them forget the rent owed and just leave - which they did. They'd cut holes in the wall for flatscreen TVs etc. But that wasn't too bad. Everything else looked reasonable - then he saw there were funny little footprints on the wall (rats feet) running up to the attic. He opened up the hatch. The scumbags had been too cheap to buy bin tags, and had stuffed all their rubbish in the attic.0 -
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Unfortunately not all that uncommon.
I think doing a big 8 grand job is that unusual. Someone really going to town on wrecking a place is unusual.
But you will have people who will bellyache. Take my aunt, for instance. She became a landlord. And then she got out of it after about two years - early/mid noughties, so she walked away with a big bag of swag for all her "suffering".
She would tell anyone who would listen about how her tenants had "wrecked" the place........And do you know what she meant by "wrecking"?......When her tenants moved in, she told them not to cook with oil, and not to use a frying pan.....Of course these people wouldn't listen - and went and "wrecked" the place - little oil spots on the tiles behind the cooker. My aunt...had to go in and clean those oil spots with her own hands.
She was deadly serious.............She was actually telling people her tenants had "destroyed" the house. The kitchen smelled like people had been cooking food in it.0 -
My parents used to let out a house years ago. Every time someone moved out there was a certain amount of general wear and tear to be taken care of, which is understandable.
One of the last tenants to live there was getting rent allowance; not a problem, and not the first time a tenant had social welfare receipts. Unfortunately he was signing receipts for several of his friends in my fathers name, and to top it off he wasn't paying the rent (we found this out when a man from social welfare came looking for my father). Unfortunately at the time you couldn't kick him out too easily.
When we eventually got him out he had kicked in both the front and back doors, destroyed all of the beds, knocked holes in the walls, ripped out the shower, broken the sink and bath, broken all of the sitting room, kitchen and bedroom furniture, broken the bannister on the stairs, attempted to destroy the central heading, punctured the oil tank, and burnt all of the carpets and flooring with cigarettes. We had to completely gut the house and rebuild and furnish from scratch.
I know others who have had similar issues over the years.0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »PTRB are useless, don't even waste your time going through them even if you're fully registered and have all of your documentation and ducks in a row. /QUOTE]
They are useless. I tried to go through them to get a deposit bank from a landlord - we left the house in perfect condition, the landlord was just being a scum bag. They wouldn't talk to me on the phone. They wouldn't accept email - when I sent them an email, they replied saying they wouldn't accept emails. I sent them an email saying would it be okay if I came along to their office for a chat - they replied saying they wouldn't see me.
I had a landlord like that once. A solicitor's letter sorted them out. Once they knew I was prepared to go to court they coughed up. Wouldn't bother with PRTB - not worth the effort. Personally I would risk racking up legal fees far in excess of the deposit value just to prove the point that deposits must be repaid but I understand not everyone would go that far.0
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