M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Chris_533976 · 06-11-2009 3:58pm

As it stands, the government would CPO the land and the private company would build the road. Thats how it work apart from a bit of cash for archeology and fences.

Unfortunately the government cant afford the (substantial) CPOs for this project, so its been long fingered.

mysterious · 06-11-2009 5:32pm

We could build it for no money if we wanted.

Yeah Im serious.

Can you imagine it, I can.;)

Zoney · 06-11-2009 6:01pm

Chris:

I don't believe a private company/consortium could find financial backing for such a venture. Almost everyone is having difficulty getting hold of real money, and delays in payment are so bad now, that mysterious I can guarantee you large numbers of people up and down the country are working for free at the moment (literally so if the people they are doing the work for go out of business, for cash flow or other reasons).

For all the doom and gloom talk (a lot of which is superficial and irrelevant for all that it is depressing), a lot of people do not seem to have grasped the very serious issues that need to be attended to (even before the symptoms like unemployment).

mysterious · 06-11-2009 6:31pm

Zoney wrote: »

Chris:

I don't believe a private company/consortium could find financial backing for such a venture. Almost everyone is having difficulty getting hold of real money, and delays in payment are so bad now, that mysterious I can guarantee you large numbers of people up and down the country are working for free at the moment (literally so if the people they are doing the work for go out of business, for cash flow or other reasons).

For all the doom and gloom talk (a lot of which is superficial and irrelevant for all that it is depressing), a lot of people do not seem to have grasped the very serious issues that need to be attended to (even before the symptoms like unemployment).

money will be no use if not already when the dollar crashes.

Chris_533976 · 06-11-2009 11:18pm

Zoney wrote: »

Chris:

I don't believe a private company/consortium could find financial backing for such a venture. Almost everyone is having difficulty getting hold of real money, and delays in payment are so bad now, that mysterious I can guarantee you large numbers of people up and down the country are working for free at the moment (literally so if the people they are doing the work for go out of business, for cash flow or other reasons).

For all the doom and gloom talk (a lot of which is superficial and irrelevant for all that it is depressing), a lot of people do not seem to have grasped the very serious issues that need to be attended to (even before the symptoms like unemployment).

Thats what worries me. The only hope of any major road projects getting done in the next 5 - 10 years are through the PPPs. Possibly other big projects too, like Metro North and the Interconnector.

Thats why the €500m the preferred bidder wants to raise for the M17/18 is so important. That scheme is the most important in the history of the country IMO. If they can raise the cash, be it through Irish or European banks, it goes ahead and the PPP model is workable thesedays. If it doesnt go ahead, NOTHING major infrastructurally will go ahead for 10 years. It all hinges on whether the M17/18 goes ahead or not in a years time.

Sponge Bob · 07-11-2009 12:27pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

It all hinges on whether the M17/18 goes ahead or not in a years time.

Very true . It seems as many as three major PPP projects will be actively fundraising in 2010 .

The 1. M17/M18 2. the Newlands and 3. Metro North .

Failure by one or more will mean that the New Ross and possibly the Dart Interconnector PPPs , down the chain behind them , are futile , stillborn . This weeks derating of the governmnet by Fitch did not help .

Cork - Limerick is behind all those projects in the PPP queue save possibly Dart Interconnector with which it may be level pegging . The Galway Bypass may be PPP'd and put in front of it as well .

These are simply the facts, do resist shooting the messengers

Chris_533976 · 07-11-2009 1:08pm

Ironic though isnt it that the government is borrowing enough money to build an M17/18 every week

Wild Bill · 08-11-2009 1:02am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

That's why the €500m the preferred bidder wants to raise for the M17/18 is so important. That scheme is the most important in the history of the country IMO.

Wha?? I'd rate the inter-connector ahead of it in current projects; historically it is surely behind the M50 and the MIUs. :cool:

spacetweek · 08-11-2009 3:38am

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Thats what worries me. The only hope of any major road projects getting done in the next 5 - 10 years are through the PPPs. Possibly other big projects too, like Metro North and the Interconnector.

Thats why the €500m the preferred bidder wants to raise for the M17/18 is so important. That scheme is the most important in the history of the country IMO. If they can raise the cash, be it through Irish or European banks, it goes ahead and the PPP model is workable thesedays. If it doesnt go ahead, NOTHING major infrastructurally will go ahead for 10 years. It all hinges on whether the M17/18 goes ahead or not in a years time.

Nonsense. It's the PPPs that are uncertain, what with our rating getting worse all the time. The road projects can go ahead out of the regular transport budget if PPPs don't work. We'll still have at least 500M each for roads and PT per year to play with. Note that even that would be a 66% cut from previous levels.

Wild Bill · 08-11-2009 10:16am

But are they not transferring major roads projects to PPP status? M20, M17/18, N11+Newlands cross.......??

Chris_533976 · 08-11-2009 11:10am

Wild Bill wrote: »

Wha?? I'd rate the inter-connector ahead of it in current projects; historically it is surely behind the M50 and the MIUs. :cool:

Yes it is ahead of it in IMPORTANCE, but the M17/18 is just the nearest to starting of them all. Therefore, its a benchmark as to the likelyhood of others getting started.

spacetweek wrote: »

Nonsense. It's the PPPs that are uncertain, what with our rating getting worse all the time. The road projects can go ahead out of the regular transport budget if PPPs don't work. We'll still have at least 500M each for roads and PT per year to play with. Note that even that would be a 66% cut from previous levels.

Possibly, but I'd imagine that will dry up as well. Probably about €1billion will be put to roads in 2010, only to finish currently contracted routes. After that, I reckon one cheap scheme per year to keep things ticking over, say the Longford bypass. I dont think that ANYTHING ELSE will start from the regular transport budget. There is certainly no way the M20 or the M17/18 will be directly exchecquer funded.

wingfo · 03-12-2009 1:12pm

Can anybody say if the M20 project is definitly dead in the water.

Sponge Bob · 03-12-2009 1:28pm

The NRA said so in September. Reprioritised means very long fingered in plain english.

Ask the consultants what is going on , they were supposed to publish the EIS and CPO by now, but they have not. http://www.wyg.ie/ . T

If the EIS/CPO is published now they could have the hearing 2010 and then tenders open 2010/2011 and start building from 2011.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Cash-shortage-halts-M20-between.5606028.jp

Still be required to proceed with the land procurement and an Environmental Impact Statement.

Sean O'Neill, head of communications at the NRA said that the M20 had been "reprioritised" due to lower traffic volumes compared to other schemes also awaiting funding. "The reprioritising of these PPP projects will affect the scheduling of the M20 but not ultimately the construction of it," he said.

BluntGuy · 03-12-2009 2:03pm

wingfo wrote: »

Can anybody say if the M20 project is definitly dead in the water.

Pretty much dead, tied down with the massive anchor we call "lack of funding". Spongebob summarised it pretty well.

2015 was the date thrown around for a while.

2020 and beyond seems more likely now.

Sponge Bob · 03-12-2009 2:06pm

The reprioritisation of New Ross/Enniscorthy is most likely next up.

BluntGuy · 03-12-2009 2:08pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The reprioritisation of New Ross/Enniscorthy is most likely next up.

What schemes do you reckon will go ahead in the next five years, road-wise (I don't even wanna bring the prospect of finding money for MN or IC into this).

cjpm · 03-12-2009 2:22pm

wingfo wrote: »

Can anybody say if the M20 project is definitly dead in the water.

Prelim design is still on going but is supposed to be done by Christmas.

Recently a MSA has been added to the design and a public consultation was held in Mallow as a result of this and change in location of Rathduff GSJ

EIS and CPO publication probably will be done in 2010, so as the job does not come to a complete halt.

Sponge Bob · 03-12-2009 3:51pm

If the EIS is published in H1 2010 the Oral Hearing can be conducted in H2 2010 and the Bord Pleanala decision made by H1 2011. Then it is ready to go to tender .

The M11 Arklow - Rathnew EIS was published in July 2004 ..Oral Hearing 2005 , went to tender in 2008 before that was pulled by Dempsey and bundled with Newlands to go to tender again some time. That particular road will probably be finished around 2014 which is 10 years after the EIS was initially published.

The outline M20 tender would be H2 2011 and shortlisting of preferred tenders by H1 2012 and with extended PPP haggling involved the earliest a tender would be sorted is H2 2012 to H1 2013 and a minimum 2 year construction phase thereafter taking us out to H1 2015 . That is if everything goes well.

I am not certain as to whether the M20 is one of the 95 road projects that were explicitly cancelled during the negotiations for the program for government in September

If it did survive it will be subject to the 2:1 ratio agreed between rail projects/buslanes and road projects starting from 2011 and including 2012 when the greens will disappear in the next general election anyway.

If the only rail project underway in 2011 is a Metro North PPP at a €300m a year cost to the government .....say....the road programme in that year will be €150m or about what we spent pre celtic tiger. I suspect that only one PPP will get off in 2011 at that rate ...and we must not forget the backlog of land acquisition costs to be cleared some time. . Only parts of the M17 M18 M11 and M7 projects are bought and fenced and none of New Ross or Enniscorthy .

My gut instinct is that only one PPP will issue in all of 2010 and 2011 and no non PPP .

Wild Bill · 03-12-2009 11:12pm

2:1 rail to road; 95 projects canceled??? Where did you read all that? I thought I was following the news but missed both those nuggets. :cool:

Sponge Bob · 04-12-2009 12:23am

WB

The 2:1 rail road spend starting 2011 is on page 29 of 43 ( we all know where the 2010 spend is going)

http://www.cpsma.ie/Downloads/programme_for_gov.pdf

The good news is that only 94 road projects are affected , not 95 . Phew.
They will henceforth strangle them at the design stage and eis and cpo stage where possible by simple sending the NRA resources out to map Regional Roads or something. You may be sure it will be both a smart and green way of doing nothing rather than the usual grubby FF way of doing nothing

Review means cancel in political terms.

Page 30 of 43

Roads
· We will complete the Major Urban Routes (MIU) in 2010.
· We will review the completion dates and appropriate road standard of the
remaining 94 road projects at the design stage or earlier stage of development in
light of the economic circumstances, falling road usage and our climate change
objectives. We will ensure new design standards for national secondary routes to
take account of current economic and environmental circumstances.

Tech3 · 06-12-2009 4:43pm

I have updated the M20 section on the N20 wikipedia page.

Will there be a seperate page done for the M20 eventually?

wingfo · 07-12-2009 1:09pm

sadly the way the econmy has gone and the way the government are
borrowing money to pay peoples dole i see a lot of projects being put
on the backburner the m20 being one of them, a lot of uncertinty and
false truths and delaying tactics being used.

Wild Bill · 09-12-2009 1:13am

Hmmmmm......"false truth" is an oxymoron. :cool:

fresca · 01-02-2010 2:41pm

according to the department of transport website, the M20 will proceed to cpo during 2010..
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=170

(oh & yes, we get the old "the following projects opened ahead of schedule" bit at the end - no doubt that next year the M7 limerick-nenagh will appear on the "projects opened behind schedule" section!)

Tech3 · 03-02-2010 3:07pm

Stumbled across this photo, thought I may as well throw it on here. It's looking southbound from J2. Built to a very good standard compared to the M7 SRR phase I where the surface is getting very bumpy lately.

Roryhy · 03-02-2010 5:01pm

This might be a good time to ask a question about something i've always wondered about.......at the bottom of that picture you can see rectangles of tarmac with tar dribbled around them, what are these? Are they to show location of underground services, traffic counters?

Amtmann · 03-02-2010 5:16pm

^^^ Traffic counter strips.

mysterious · 03-02-2010 7:52pm

I feel now is the time for the people of Ireland to stand up and say the M20 scheme is needed before schemes such as New Ross and Enniscorthy. The SE has been spoilt in the last few years the West, South, and Midwest has fallen really behind.

Adare, Charelville, Claregalway, NCW, Mallow, Longford are on busier Inter urbans. It's absurd the way the SE is getting two full blown motorways in on region and not only that but Irelands most expensive bridge.

I do not like the malacy and total white elephant spending going on in this country. Priority and common sense comes first and I'm sick and tired of this bull and our local TDs not standing up.

Willie O dea and other Limerick/Cork TDs, if your reading this, please understand that you disgrace me.

Amtmann · 05-02-2010 7:59pm

So, given that PPP model seems to be working to get the M18/M17 to the construction phase, how likely is it that we will see parts of the M20 under construction by 2013?

D.L.R. · 05-02-2010 9:18pm

Furet wrote: »

So, given that PPP model seems to be working to get the M18/M17 to the construction phase, how likely is it that we will see parts of the M20 under construction by 2013?

Don't think there's a simple answer to that one. Hopefully. Just a pity they can't prioritise better - I'd be far more excited about an M20 than the M17/18.

Hope we don't regret that.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Comments