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You live by the sword, you die by the sword

  • 09-03-2012 8:59am
    #1
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭


    Simple questions really, how safe do you actually feel in this county? I mean we hear of someone being shot, or then two people die in a car that's burnt out...and then we hear it was drug or gang related. Is your sympathy immediately extinguished when you hear that "they were known to Garda" or "drug fuelled".

    How many actually innocent murders happen in ireland each year?

    NB: discussion will commence after the the first page of thanks craving.


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Comments

  • #2
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    How many actually innocent murders happen in ireland each year?

    Now that's a new one.


  • #3
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Apologies, an innocent being murdered.


  • #4
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Simple questions really, how safe do you actually feel in this county? I mean we hear of someone being shot, or then two people die in a car that's burnt out...and then we hear it was drug or gang related. Is your sympathy immediately extinguished when you hear that "they were known to Garda" or "drug fuelled".

    How many actually innocent murders happen in ireland each year?

    NB: discussion will commence after the the first page of thanks craving.

    I guess technically they're all innocent as no one has the right yo sit in judgement over someone else life.

    However yes, when I hear the victim was scum I really couldn't give a fiddlers f*ck.


  • #5
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    old_aussie wrote: »
    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    How many actually innocent murders happen in ireland each year?

    Now that's a new one.

    aye, but I took it to mean not affiliate with any criminal gangs.

    There's plenty of murders happening that aren't "hits."


  • #6
    Guill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,331 ✭✭✭Guill


    Shane Geoghegan murder caused massive outcry and rightly so.

    The killing of gang members in Dublin/Limerick barely makes me look up at the news.


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  • #7
    CardBordWindow
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭CardBordWindow


    Put them all (scumbags) in a room filled with weapons. Pay-per-view it.


  • #8
    talkinyite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    I don't feel unsafe in Ireland at all. I think that if you feel you could give it a good go defending yourself that fear goes out the window. And nah my sympathy isn't extinguished if the murders were drug or gang related because in my eyes that's just a life that they fell into. If they killed someone before tho then yeah no sympathy at all.


  • #9
    catthinkin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭catthinkin


    I have sympathy for the families of anyone who has been murdered irrespective of whether they were scum or not .


  • #10
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Even if one allows oneself to be judgemental, and everyones right to do that is questionable to say the least, and dismiss certain persons as "scum" on the basis that they were involved in criminal enterprises, there is still the reality that outsiders like Shane Geoghan and that unfortunate plumber's assistant in Dublin, who had absolutely no involvement in crime whatsoever, will inevitably be killed or injured.:rolleyes:

    As I have already said, legalising, regulating and taxing drugs like cannabis would deprive the criminal world of a vast and lucrative market and free up Garda resources to deal with other kinds of crime, especially of the violent kind.:)


  • #11
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    I certainly dont feel unsafe but it does appear as if there has been an increase in this type of crime.
    I say appear because i dont know the actual figures, it is possible that for whatever reason this gangland stuff is just getting more coverage lately.
    I live out in the country so i suppose in that sense I'm a step removed from a lot of it, maybe I'd feel different if i was living in a rough part of Dublin or Limerick (although the places where the two bodies were burned and the getaway car was found are just a few miles from my house.)
    I know it's tempting to just say "sure they're all scumbags, let them have at each other," same sort of attitude I used to have when I'd hear of another loyalist feud, but it's only a matter of time before tis spills over and innocent people get hurt.
    It will never happen here, or if it does it will only be after it has happened in every other country on the planet, but i think there needs to be a serious conversation about legalising certain drugs


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  • #12
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    when you hear that "they were known to Garda".

    Ive an Uncle in the Guards although I only really bump into him the odd Christmas. Do I count ?


  • #13
    Park Royal
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Park Royal


    For some reason I usually think they have been failed by our society....

    Is it not serendipity to which parents we are borne......

    some of us find ourselves born into the height of wealth , opportunity ,

    good parental guidance ..

    others born at the side of the road and reared at the side of the road, with

    little/no wealth , little/no opportunity , poor parental guidance.....

    and you have every circumstance in between...

    ( also the situations......as the bard says " out of good wombs, bad sons are

    sometimes born")


  • #14
    omahaid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Ive an Uncle in the Guards although I only really bump into him the odd Christmas. Do I count ?

    I doubt it, in the news it would say "Mike 1972, whose uncle was a member of An Garda Siochana, was brutally gunned down while posting on boards.ie"


  • #15
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    I don't feel unsafe, but I suppose I'm lucky in that I've never been murdered.


  • #16
    Kolido
    Registered Users Posts: 13,358 ✭✭✭✭Kolido


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Simple questions really, how safe do you actually feel in this county? I mean we hear of someone being shot, or then two people die in a car that's burnt out...and then we hear it was drug or gang related. Is your sympathy immediately extinguished when you hear that "they were known to Garda" or "drug fuelled".

    How many actually innocent murders happen in ireland each year?

    NB: discussion will commence after the the first page of thanks craving.

    Which county?


  • #17
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    Kolido wrote: »
    Which county?

    Oooh you!


  • #18
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    black francis wrote: »
    I don't feel unsafe, but I suppose I'm lucky in that I've never been murdered.

    Can you prove you haven't been murdered?.


  • #19
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    abouttobebanned wrote: »
    Simple questions really, how safe do you actually feel in this county? I mean we hear of someone being shot, or then two people die in a car that's burnt out...and then we hear it was drug or gang related. Is your sympathy immediately extinguished when you hear that "they were known to Garda" or "drug fuelled".
    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    Even if one allows oneself to be judgemental, and everyones right to do that is questionable to say the least, and dismiss certain persons as "scum" on the basis that they were involved in criminal enterprises,

    If you hear about these things through the media, bear in mind that you're generally being presented with a one-dimensional morality play, with absolutely evil "scumbags" and totally innocent victims. The reality, in the overwhelming majority of cases, is much less clear-cut, and much more complex ... but reality doesn't make for good headlines or compelling, easily-grasped narratives.

    I feel perfectly safe living in north inner city Dublin, and I don't think that the crime problem in this country is anywhere close to being out of control. The fact is that our perceptions of the prevalence of crime are totally distorted by heuristic biases in our brains, and the disproportionate amount of coverage that is given to extreme cases.


  • #20
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Lisa Stale Exterminator wrote: »
    However yes, when I hear the victim was scum I really couldn't give a fiddlers f*ck.
    I tend towards the same reaction, but I often wonder where the victim is on the scum scale. Many of the gangland 'victims' are in it up to their necks, wanted for this that and the other, 50 convictions, suspects in other murders. I don't think they are particularly missed by anyone except their mothers.

    But there are many who could be considered 'involved' in gangland who have jobs, wives & kids and who's only criminal activity is buying bags of grass to dole out to their friends at the weekend. They know the real lowlife since school, and have no connection to the turf wars or whatever.

    They're making a couple of hundred a week out of it, wouldn't even cover the rent.

    Are they scum?


  • #21
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Even including scum-on-scum murders, we actually have a really low murder rate at about 1.25 murders per 100,000 people. When you compare that to say the US at 4.8, or Honduras at 86, we're doing pretty well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


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  • #22
    jellygems
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭jellygems


    i know one of the men very well that was in that car, he was not scum and i feel to speak such ill of the dead esp one who was murdered so brutally is callous

    :(


  • #23
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Another thing with "scum-on-scum" killings is that the media aren't really interested in covering them in any depth - too many complications and nuances, not enough scope for sermonising.

    Take a look at the case of Richard "Happy" Kelly in Limerick for a good example - I did my dissertation on this stuff, if I remember correctly the Shane Geoghegan murder got something like 15 times as much coverage as Happy Kelly, but it's no less a tragic case, imho.


  • #24
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Gurgle wrote: »
    I tend towards the same reaction, but I often wonder where the victim is on the scum scale. Many of the gangland 'victims' are in it up to their necks, wanted for this that and the other, 50 convictions, suspects in other murders. I don't think they are particularly missed by anyone except their mothers.

    But there are many who could be considered 'involved' in gangland who have jobs, wives & kids and who's only criminal activity is buying bags of grass to dole out to their friends at the weekend. They know the real lowlife since school, and have no connection to the turf wars or whatever.

    They're making a couple of hundred a week out of it, wouldn't even cover the rent.

    Are they scum?

    Yes they're scum, not to everyone - we all have our own definitions of whats a scumbag.

    And I don't post without some insight.. One of my best mates was murdered, lured out of his house and away from his partner and children - abducted, murdered and found a week later.

    We were mates long before he involved himself in what ultimately killed him, I think about him often and I wish he hadn't chosen the path he did.. To me he's still the mate I knew, we'd some craic together over the years.

    His brother was also murdered, but I didn't know him that well.

    Their parents are still alive, and devastated by their murder's - they weren't rared to be murdered, or to deal drugs.

    I can't say much more than that, but to me (on a personal level) he wasn't a scumbag however I accept that society would consider him so - and tbh, I can't disagree with those views either.


  • #25
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    Murder and Violence have an explosive effect on Society creating anxieties and neurotic habits .


  • #26
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Was just speaking to someone who knew the two victims from last night as well, in his exact words "young lads who didn't know what they were getting in to".

    I really wish people wouldn't be so quick to brand people as "scum", without knowing anything about them - it might fit nicely with some retarded world-view of society as a battle between good and evil, decent folks and "scumbags", but it really only serves to obscure a much more complicated reality.


  • #27
    wilkie2006
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭wilkie2006


    Oh. I thought the thread title was "you live in Swords, you die by the sword..."

    Oh well.


  • #28
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    wilkie2006 wrote: »
    Oh. I thought the thread title was "you live in Swords, you die by the sword..."

    Oh well.

    I worked on the door of The Slaughtered Lamb and The Star for a couple of years - that wouldn't be far from the truth :p


  • #29
    LostCorkGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭LostCorkGuy


    benway wrote: »
    "young lads who didn't know what they were getting in to".

    I really wish people wouldn't be so quick to brand people as "scum", without knowing anything about them - it might fit nicely with some retarded world-view of society as a battle between good and evil, decent folks and "scumbags", but it really only serves to obscure a much more complicated reality.

    People are saying scum because of criminal activity "didnt know what they were getting into" ? it doesn't matter if they were doing what ever they were doing for personal gain or to feed starving orphans and adopt strays , breaking the law makes you scum , white collar crime included


  • #30
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    LostCorkGuy wrote: »
    People are saying scum because of criminal activity "didnt know what they were getting into" ? it doesn't matter if they were doing what ever they were doing for personal gain or to feed starving orphans and adopt strays , breaking the law makes you scum , white collar crime included

    By that logic, most of the population are "scum" - you've led a very sheltered life if you haven't broken the law at least once or twice.


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  • #31
    EL_Loco
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭EL_Loco


    There's a level of violence in certain sectors of the population that wasn't there before, soo, in general it's a bad thing. Just because you deem it drug gang on drug gang doesn't mean it's not a problem that needs addressing.

    So you wait for some eegit to try and take out another eegit in a shopping centre and then it becomes a concern. It should be a concern to everyone right now.

    You don't live in a bubble, it all has consequences even for us "law abiding" forum users.


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