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General Election 2012

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭pancakes rule


    K-9 wrote: »
    Tell us what you really think!



    Ah poor ould Claire, excellent councilor by all accounts but ould Vincent just has her for dinner. Another SWP Councilor was on Browne's show about the Treaty and she just kept repeating austerity, as in "fire, Fire, FIRE" as a means of debate!

    Doherty of SF is an excellent speaker but again prone to awkward silences under tough questioning, same as them all really, or else they just go "look, squirrel" and hope the interviewer gets sidetracked.

    You DO realise that Clare Daly is of the Socialist Party, NOT the SWP, and she's a TD, not a councillor. Also, that councillor was Ruth Coppinger who is also a Socialist Party member. Again NOT the SWP. While I'm at it, I'm just going to point out that Joe Higgins is also in the Socialist Party and not the SWP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭socco


    honestly I wouldn't want to vote for any of them. I am surprise by how vote SF have in this thread though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    You DO realise that Clare Daly is of the Socialist Party, NOT the SWP, and she's a TD, not a councillor. Also, that councillor was Ruth Coppinger who is also a Socialist Party member. Again NOT the SWP. While I'm at it, I'm just going to point out that Joe Higgins is also in the Socialist Party and not the SWP.

    Apologies. This ULA alliance thing has me all confused. I'm sure the differences are important.

    You took me up wrong, I was referring to Clare as a councillor in the past tense.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,367 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    I will never under any circumstances vote Sinn Fein and anyone who would consider voting for a party with SF's history and connections needs to seriously rethink their ideas and beliefs.

    I will vote FG as I am not as bitter as many and I can see that they are doing what they have to to get us out a situation that was not their fault, but that they were left to clean up when the cowards in FF ran.

    Its only a year ago and you appear to have forgotten what actually happened. The cowards in FF didn't run, they lost an election, brought about by the Greens pulling the plug.

    If FG had been in power, given that they were calling for increased expenditure while in opposition, would it be any different?
    They are using their massive post election mandate to continue the policies pursued by FF, policies that the electorate firmly rejected.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭AskMyChocolate


    K-9 wrote: »
    Tell us what you really think!



    Ah poor ould Claire, excellent councilor by all accounts but ould Vincent just has her for dinner. Another SWP Councilor was on Browne's show about the Treaty and she just kept repeating austerity, as in "fire, Fire, FIRE" as a means of debate!

    Doherty of SF is an excellent speaker but again prone to awkward silences under tough questioning, same as them all really, or else they just go "look, squirrel" and hope the interviewer gets sidetracked.

    I think you're being a bit harsh on Doherty. The simple fact of the matter is, that, while RTE maintain an almost servile,ultra-conservative, pro-establishment centre-right agenda, FG/FF/LAB will never be subjected to tough questioning while SF will be ruthlessly attacked at every opportunity in an utterly unprofessional and biased way. I wonder could you name me one political affairs presenter/interviewer in RTE who is pro-SF or even impartial?

    I think, if you're honest, you'll admit that you can't. Any time, I've seen Gilmore or Kenny faced with tough questions in the Dail, they usually have to resort to whataboutery or childishly petty (unfunny) glib retorts more suited to a junior-cert debate.

    Any half-decent opposition, that wasn't already mired in muck itself would have them for breakfast.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Well, it wasn't exactly fascism I was referring to, although an authoritarian elite claiming to be acting in the interest of the citizenry they purport to represent, is something, a lot of people would tend to associate with fascism. It was said more, in response, to your morally superior attitude towards SF, and your implication that FG's questionable moral behaviour is historical; borne out by your request for contemporary examples. I merely gave you one.
    Perhaps you are misrepresenting your point but what exactly is fascist about an elite (or any elected body) “acting in the interest of the citizenry they purport to represent”???

    If you want to label my attitude to SF “moral superiority”, so be it. I just happen to think that if a group who takes up arms, on behalf of a people but plainly against the wishes of the people, and seemingly see nothing wrong with this, then they have a very different, and incompatible, world view with those of us more who are more democratically minded.
    Btw, I noticed, you sidestepped the issue of defending his behaviour. Given his history, what makes you think he would act in the interests of the citizenry or justice?
    Whatever you think about Michael Noonan’s behavior with respect to the Hep. scandal (and like most, I am none too impressed with his approach), I do think he was acting, or at least attempting to act, on behalf of the taxpayer by limiting their exposure to expensive lawsuits. And in this respect, he was not very different form many other administrations.

    Every few years we see stories of ordinary honest citizens who challenge the state simply to get basic education access for their autistic children, or more recently, an abuse victim who tried to hold the state to account for her ordeal, being challenged full on by the offices of the state.

    Coming in heavy is not something that is peculiar to Noonan, we see that all the time. What earned him infamy is the cack-handed and utterly insensitive approach he took.

    If you disagree, perhaps you can tell me in whose interest you think Noonan was acting when he took his rather misguided line in that scandal?
    It is impossible to know what Doherty may or may not achieve. He certainly couldn't achieve much less

    Actually he could. If he jeopardized access to the cheap money we get at the moment it would leave us immeasurable worse off.
    The only thing that is certain is that if you don't point out that you are not responsible for debts and instead scream from the rooftops that you intend to honour them, the creditors sure as hell aren't going to stop you.
    Pointing out that if European governments choose to save the private banking sector, then the burden must be shared equally by the citizenry of Europe would be a good place to start.

    We actually have quite a lot of leverage, and not just legal, moral and judicial. We actually have far more leverage than Greece had as their problems stemmed solely from their own sovereign debt and lack of fiscal responsibility, whereas ours stemmed from this but also to a huge degree from doing what was necessary to save the private European banking sector from going into meltdown. Greece have managed to have all bondholders burnt to the tune of 70%.
    That is an argument that morally, we should have leverage, not that we do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭AskMyChocolate


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Its only a year ago and you appear to have forgotten what actually happened. The cowards in FF didn't run, they lost an election, brought about by the Greens pulling the plug.

    If FG had been in power, given that they were calling for increased expenditure while in opposition, would it be any different?
    They are using their massive post election mandate to continue the policies pursued by FF, policies that the electorate firmly rejected.

    They slinked off (as run is too ambiguous a word here), with their massive pensions because they were too gutless to fight an election, or rather too greedy to face the possibility of having their pensions reduced, or too spineless to face the humiliation of losing their seats, or more likely a combination of all three. Utterly revolting pieces of human garbage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭AskMyChocolate


    lugha wrote: »
    Perhaps you are misrepresenting your point but what exactly is fascist about an elite (or any elected body) “acting in the interest of the citizenry they purport to represent”???

    Wow, way to misquote me. I said CLAIMING TO BE acting... but I'll leave the fascist thing be, or we'll end up in a debate over propaganda, authoritarianism, manifestos, mandates, etc.

    If you want to label my attitude to SF “moral superiority”, so be it. I just happen to think that if a group who takes up arms, on behalf of a people but plainly against the wishes of the people, and seemingly see nothing wrong with this, then they have a very different, and incompatible, world view with those of us more who are more democratically minded.

    True, but then again, with that reasoning we'd still have slavery and apartheid. People like order and the status quo. I'd also point out that Sinn Fein is by far the biggest Nationalist party in the North not the SDLP.

    Whatever you think about Michael Noonan’s behavior with respect to the Hep. scandal (and like most, I am none too impressed with his approach), I do think he was acting, or at least attempting to act, on behalf of the taxpayer by limiting their exposure to expensive lawsuits. And in this respect, he was not very different form many other administrations.

    Every few years we see stories of ordinary honest citizens who challenge the state simply to get basic education access for their autistic children, or more recently, an abuse victim who tried to hold the state to account for her ordeal, being challenged full on by the offices of the state.

    Coming in heavy is not something that is peculiar to Noonan, we see that all the time. What earned him infamy is the cack-handed and utterly insensitive approach he took.

    If you disagree, perhaps you can tell me in whose interest you think Noonan was acting when he took his rather misguided line in that scandal?

    His own, and the interests of powerful special interest groups with a voice, who he was too gutless to take on in a fight. Easier to kick a cripple. No different to his siding with paedophiles rather than children over thirty years, or his siding with Goldman Sachs today.



    Actually he could. If he jeopardized access to the cheap money we get at the moment it would leave us immeasurable worse off.

    I don't think the ECB would try to threaten us, and again, while they are loaning money to commercial banks at 1%, I'm not sure I'd agree with your definition of cheap. Also, it is a sad state of affairs, when the citizenry of a nation are relying on the IMF to fight their corner against their own government.


    That is an argument that morally, we should have leverage, not that we do.

    That would be a matter for the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights to decide.

    Btw, I notice, that again you have chosen to ignore/delete the parts of my post,that you don't have an answer to. Care to comment on McCarthy/Soros/Buffet and the IMF being the only sort of "wilfully deluded" "gullible" fools who could be taken in by Doherty's populist drivel? But, of course, you're probably right. They're as weakminded and easily-led as that fool Stiglitz. They need a dose of reality. They probably haven't even read the true reality of the situation, like Minister Noonan explained today... in the Indo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭The Internet Explorer


    I think the government should stay off the gold standard, so that the pound can reach a level that would keep our exports competitive.

    The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own, what half baked drivel ! See how the men look at her with utter contempt !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Conchir wrote: »
    Do most people here pick one party to vote for, regardless of who the candidates are in your constituency? I can't vote yet, but I would imagine when I can, I'll pick candidates individually, based on, y'know, their politics. From most of the replies it appears people pick a party, and not the individuals. Just strikes me as a bit strange.

    Candidates are useless when forced into line by the ridiculous party whip....they either sell out their ethics and vote with the objectionable stance or have to resign and lose any influence they may have had.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I think you're being a bit harsh on Doherty. The simple fact of the matter is, that, while RTE maintain an almost servile,ultra-conservative, pro-establishment centre-right agenda, FG/FF/LAB will never be subjected to tough questioning while SF will be ruthlessly attacked at every opportunity in an utterly unprofessional and biased way. I wonder could you name me one political affairs presenter/interviewer in RTE who is pro-SF or even impartial?

    Its all perspective, RTE went with Lee et al, sure Lee built a political career on it. Not disagreeing, but lets lay off the hyperbole. McWilliams had a series, the same guy who put the blanket guarantee out there as acceptable, we should be showering in champagne now, watching all the Capitalist banks fleeing to the IFSC, contrary to nearly all other advice.
    I think, if you're honest, you'll admit that you can't. Any time, I've seen Gilmore or Kenny faced with tough questions in the Dail, they usually have to resort to whataboutery or childishly petty (unfunny) glib retorts more suited to a junior-cert debate.

    Hmmm, find where I said Doherty, Gilmore or Kenny were anywhere different. Indeed, I hinted at them all being the same. I can see why you took offence, Doherty isn't in anyway different and you can compare him to Gilmore et al. Gilmore was Workers Party, I'm very familiar with Gilmore, also familiar with Kenny's background.
    Any half-decent opposition, that wasn't already mired in muck itself would have them for breakfast.

    Indeed, they can't, which says it all.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    socco wrote: »
    honestly I wouldn't want to vote for any of them. I am surprise by how vote SF have in this thread though!

    Don't be surprised, Sinn Fein have a hstory of doing very well on Boards.ie Polls, and I would be amazed if they don't top this poll.
    Same in the last presidential poll where they had Martin McGuinness riding high, with virtually one foot in the door of the Aras.

    Reality is a different thing, thank God.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Btw, I notice, that again you have chosen to ignore/delete the parts of my post,that you don't have an answer to. Care to comment on McCarthy/Soros/Buffet and the IMF being the only sort of "wilfully deluded" "gullible" fools who could be taken in by Doherty's populist drivel? But, of course, you're probably right. They're as weakminded and easily-led as that fool Stiglitz. They need a dose of reality. They probably haven't even read the true reality of the situation, like Minister Noonan explained today... in the Indo.
    There is a whole plethora of points in your post that I would take issue with but it is hardly pragmatic to try and discuss 3 or 4 different topics on one thread so I’ll stick to Doherty (though I am very curious as to how you reason that Noonan was acting in his own interests in the McColl case??)

    You are touting Doherty, so the onus is on you to make the case as to why he might do any better. And your argument from authority (look at what these great lads think!) doesn’t work! Nevermind what others think, you tell me why he could do better. What card could he play that Noonan can not? He can make fine, if silly, speeches about our children being more precious than our banks but can/would he do to about it?

    The “deluded” types I refer to are those that think Doherty being an able orator equates to him being an able politician or having meaningful influence. The two are in no way connected.

    Much of the disillusionment some feel about Obama stems directly from unrealistic expectations some had based on this considerable oratory skills. And conversely, his predecessor was considerably less silver tongued, but there is little doubt he had considerable influence in shaping the world when he was in power. Even our own Bertie had undoubted ability (as a political player) despite him not being the most eloquent speaker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭Napper Hawkins


    I think the government should stay off the gold standard, so that the pound can reach a level that would keep our exports competitive.

    The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own, what half baked drivel ! See how the men look at her with utter contempt !

    WOMEN!

    KNOW

    YOUR

    LIMITS!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Anarcho-Capitalist Libertarian Objectivist Party (ACLOP).

    The Irish people wouldn't be ready for that. Far too many people still depend on being led by the hand in this God forsaken place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭toexpress


    I'm shocked at the number of people who say they would vote for Sinn Fein. I mean have we all forgotten so soon? They were terrorists not even a generation ago, their party leader has killed people allegedly in the name of a cause that he was fighting for you and I yet I never wanted someone so die for this cause.

    It's a sad day if that poll is anything to go by and I truly mean it when I say shame on those of you who are thoughtless enough for the families of the victims of the IRA to consider voting them into government. I think the day that happens I shall take my foot in my hand and quit the country

    *Edit*

    I wonder how many of you think that the socialists would hang onto their wonderful socialist lefty views after just a few days in office?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Mickey H


    Podge & Rodge said they would vote for Podge's Elected Rural Values Iniative.

    Also known as the PERVI party. :eek:


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭DB10


    Sinn Fein without doubt at this current time.

    Otherwise a independant that was worthy of a vote if there was one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    toexpress wrote: »
    I'm shocked at the number of people who say they would vote for Sinn Fein. I mean have we all forgotten so soon? They were terrorists not even a generation ago, their party leader has killed people allegedly in the name of a cause that he was fighting for you and I yet I never wanted someone so die for this cause.

    It's a sad day if that poll is anything to go by and I truly mean it when I say shame on those of you who are thoughtless enough for the families of the victims of the IRA to consider voting them into government. I think the day that happens I shall take my foot in my hand and quit the country

    *Edit*

    I wonder how many of you think that the socialists would hang onto their wonderful socialist lefty views after just a few days in office?

    They were voted into government in Northern Ireland.

    When was Adams convicted of "killing people"?

    BTW, I'm not a sinn fein supporter.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭DB10


    toexpress wrote: »
    I'm shocked at the number of people who say they would vote for Sinn Fein. I mean have we all forgotten so soon? They were terrorists not even a generation ago, their party leader has killed people allegedly in the name of a cause that he was fighting for you and I yet I never wanted someone so die for this cause.

    It's a sad day if that poll is anything to go by and I truly mean it when I say shame on those of you who are thoughtless enough for the families of the victims of the IRA to consider voting them into government. I think the day that happens I shall take my foot in my hand and quit the country

    *Edit*

    I wonder how many of you think that the socialists would hang onto their wonderful socialist lefty views after just a few days in office?
    One mans terrorist is anothers mans freedom fighter. Anyway barring possibly Adams and Ferris none of the rest were even in the IRA.

    Anyway if they were part of the current "IRA" it would be a different story. But they aren't and are pro Good Friday Agreement so I dont see the problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,507 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Still Fine Gael. So far doing a decent job considering what was left for them to work with. Sinn Féin would turn us into Greece. I think it would be good to have them in government for a year, just so people never vote for them again :D


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭DB10


    dsmythy wrote: »
    Still Fine Gael. So far doing a decent job considering what was left for them to work with. Sinn Féin would turn us into Greece. I think it would be good to have them in government for a year, just so people never vote for them again :D

    I assume anyone voting for Fianna Gael either doesnt care and doesnt understand what Sean Sherlock done the other day. Just Fianna Fail in disguise.

    And at least the Greeks have some backbone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    When was Adams convicted of "killing people"?

    When was Ahern or Haughey convicted of corruption or Calley convicted of fraud ?

    Does that stop you objecting to them ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    DB10 wrote: »
    I assume anyone voting for Fianna Gael either doesnt care and doesnt understand what Sean Sherlock done the other day. Just Fianna Fail in disguise.

    And at least the Greeks have some backbone.

    I have to say that I have a grudging admiration for Eamon O'Cuiv at the moment.
    I know he's FF and was part of the government that f***ed us over but at least he's standing up for what's right. (eventually)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    When was Ahern or Haughey convicted of corruption or Calley convicted of fraud ?

    Does that stop you objecting to them ?

    What those scumbags did to this country directly affected me, you know, ruined the economy, cost people their jobs, their homes, their pride and in some cases their lives by suicide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭lcrcboy


    toexpress wrote: »
    I'm shocked at the number of people who say they would vote for Sinn Fein. I mean have we all forgotten so soon? They were terrorists not even a generation ago, their party leader has killed people allegedly in the name of a cause that he was fighting for you and I yet I never wanted someone so die for this cause.

    It's a sad day if that poll is anything to go by and I truly mean it when I say shame on those of you who are thoughtless enough for the families of the victims of the IRA to consider voting them into government. I think the day that happens I shall take my foot in my hand and quit the country

    *Edit*

    I wonder how many of you think that the socialists would hang onto their wonderful socialist lefty views after just a few days in office?

    You do realize they are in government in Northern Ireland and that they did sign the good Friday agreement and its not like they are part of the dissident movement which is currently going on.
    You also mention the victims of the IRA what about the victims of the British military, loyalist groups, RUC as someone already said one mans terrorist is another freedom fighter.
    What about the victims of people involved in the start of Fianna Fail during the civil war?? yet they have been in power the last 61 of the last 79 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    What those scumbags did to this country directly affected me, you know, ruined the economy, cost people their jobs, their homes, their pride and in some cases their lives by suicide.

    Agreed.

    But of course Gerry's gang didn't directly ensure that any economy was affected, didn't cost anyone their jobs in bombed city centres, didn't blow up any homes, didn't ruin anyone's pride by humiliating or embarrassing them and CERTAINLY didn't result in any deaths.......:rolleyes:

    Now, can we get back to the point as to why you're (correctly) allowed bitch about the unconvicted Ahern & Co people and yet you object to us pointing out issues with an equally unconvicted Adams ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Captain Graphite


    At this stage I'd probably vote Independent. Voted Labour last time but am very disappointed with them in Government. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Agreed.

    But of course Gerry's gang didn't directly ensure that any economy was affected, didn't cost anyone their jobs in bombed city centres, didn't blow up any homes, didn't ruin anyone's pride by humiliating or embarrassing them and CERTAINLY didn't result in any deaths.......:rolleyes:

    Now, can we get back to the point that you're (correctly) allowed bitch about those unconvicted people and yet object to us pointing out issues with an equally unconvicted Adams ?

    What goes on in another jurisdiction isn't my problem. We have enough of our own down here.:rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    BTW, I also think that if Sinn Fein want any real credibility they should encourage the likes of Adams, McGuinness and Ferris to step aside and make way for new, younger people, like Doherty.


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