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Unelected preisdent

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  • 11-06-2008 8:20pm
    #1
    Saruman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭


    I see one of the reasons for a no vote (im voting yes) is that the EU president or head commissioner (whatever they will be called) will not be elected by the people.

    Correct me if im wrong but is that not he same as here when our own leader (taoiseach) is elected?
    We do not directly elect him, he is elected by the people we vote into power in the Dail. We know usually who it will be, as in a vote for FF used to mean it was Bertie so if FF and its coalition got the majority it would be Bertie for power but we he people had no actual vote in the matter!

    I see no difference to be honest, maybe there is something im missing....


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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Not only that but the President of the European Council can not act independently. They can only act through a unanimous or QMV vote in the European Council. One of the 785 MEP's has more independence and possibly more influence.


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    #3
    Saruman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    To be honest, i think the Government should have put as much effort into the yes vote as they did to get elected. They should have been canvasing door to door. Im hoping we get a yes but if we do not, it will be their own fault for not doing enough and letting Libertas with their Millions of euro and US militray contacts get one over on them.


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    #4
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Saruman wrote: »
    I see no difference to be honest, maybe there is something im missing....

    Well in fairness Saruman, you do know who will be Taoiseach. For example last election if I wanted Brian Cowen PM I would have voted Fianna Fail. If I wanted Enda Kenny PM I would have voted Fine Gael/Labour. The same could hardly be said of the EU parliament could it??


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    #5
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    turgon wrote: »
    Well in fairness Saruman, you do know who will be Taoiseach. For example last election if I wanted Brian Cowen PM I would have voted Fianna Fail. If I wanted Enda Kenny PM I would have voted Fine Gael/Labour. The same could hardly be said of the EU parliament could it??

    To be pedantic you could not vote for Cowen to be taoiseach, you would have voted for Bertie. Cowen coming to power so soon was unpredicted at the time of the election.


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    #6
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    Saruman wrote: »
    if we do not, it will be their own fault for not doing enough

    I've had leaflets shoved at me every day for the last couple of weeks.

    In Ireland, I think, we have a very healthy distrust of our politicians, and this might be contributing to the strength of the no-vote.

    When all major political parties are out in force for a single cause, it just doesn't smell right.


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    #7
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    sink wrote: »
    To be pedantic you could not vote for Cowen to be taoiseach, you would have voted for Bertie. Cowen coming to power so soon was unpredicted at the time of the election.

    Pardon me sink. I only registered this year, so I did not vote last year. Simple slip of mind. But do you see my point???

    I know its bad the EU pres not elected but how could you manage a system like that??? Everyone would just vote by country and not by personality. Like the Eurovision!!


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    #8
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    And do we not elect the Irish President?


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    #9
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Saruman wrote: »
    I see one of the reasons for a no vote (im voting yes) is that the EU president or head commissioner (whatever they will be called) will not be elected by the people.

    Correct me if im wrong but is that not he same as here when our own leader (taoiseach) is elected?
    We do not directly elect him, he is elected by the people we vote into power in the Dail. We know usually who it will be, as in a vote for FF used to mean it was Bertie so if FF and its coalition got the majority it would be Bertie for power but we he people had no actual vote in the matter!

    I see no difference to be honest, maybe there is something im missing....

    It's simple as a figurehead of Europe this person must be accountable to the people.

    This new president of europe is not. He is only accountable to the leaders who elected him, no one else.

    For the taoiseach etc... people have being saying.. the taoiseach must be directly elected BEFORE he can become taoiseach. I have tried hard to find this requirement for our EU President and i have not found it.

    From what I can see this person can be anyone, maybe a retiring eurocrat, job for the boys, person who pays the most in brown envelopes? Who knows?

    I want my figurehead as a european citizen to be directly accountable to at least some of citizens and I really want him to be accountable to all of them.

    That is not too much to ask


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    #10
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I want my figurehead as a european citizen to be directly accountable to at least some of citizens and I really want him to be accountable to all of them.

    Absolutely. What a joke the EU would seem if it had a non-elected president of the democratic union. But im sure the president will be a member of the parliament.


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    #11
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Trivia: the current president of the EU parliament (who I think would be this EU President) is drawn from one of two parliament groups: Socialists (labour partys etc) or ED-EDD (Fine Gael et al) in the parliament as those two groups together command a majority. Thus the president is rotated every half turn between them.


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    #12
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    turgon wrote: »
    Absolutely. What a joke the EU would seem if it had a non-elected president of the democratic union. But im sure the president will be a member of the parliament.
    If people kick up enough fuss probably yes, but I see no problem in copperfastening it (it's not like it's too long already!) to ensure better ethics and governance.

    Public Vote = No 1 Choice


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    #13
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Public Vote = No 1 Choice

    Well tut tut johnnyq, you would not make a good EU politician. You should be aware of

    EU Rule no.1: Democracy to be avoided, and only to be used in scenarios where favorable results will be got.


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    #14
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    There are problems with having a directly elected head. First of all there are 20 something official languages in Europe, how would candidates campaign? Second by directly electing a candidate you would have to give more power to the President of the European Council, they would have to be able to set out their own policy and lead. This would be more like a proper state, the EU is still just a structured body where governments can cooperate. Finally the directly elected President could also act independently of popular opinion as demonstrated brilliantly by George Bush because they can't be sacked. The president under the lisbon treaty can't act independently of the European council and can be sacked by them at any time.


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    #15
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Yeah, as I said it would just turn into a Eurovision style contest. Maybe Dustin would have a chance, especcially as he has so many political views these days.


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    #16
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    President has no power, that's why he/she will be unelected by citizens. Why should we elect a guy with no power at all?? Wasting our money and time.


    By the way, did you know that Bertie Ahern, former Prime Minister, is the bookmaker's leading candidate for President?? He has ore bets than Tony Blair and Angela Merkel!!


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    #17
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    There are problems with having a directly elected head. First of all there are 20 something official languages in Europe, how would candidates campaign?

    You'd sware that europeans were incapable of learning other languages, when in fact most european citizens are bilingual (usually with english as their language) at least. Besides the EU has two working languages - french and english. Let them campaign in those languages.

    Second by directly electing a candidate you would have to give more power to the President of the European Council, they would have to be able to set out their own policy and lead. This would be more like a proper state, the EU is still just a structured body where governments can cooperate.

    Not convinced on that one. the eu really is going nowhere like a eurostate:rolleyes:

    Is that what our president does? She's directly elected and doesn't call all the shots. The current role, democratically elected would do fine.

    Finally the directly elected President could also act independently of popular opinion as demonstrated brilliantly by George Bush because they can't be sacked. The president under the lisbon treaty can't act independently of the European council and can be sacked by them at any time.

    Like When he doesn't do what he is told or something? Maybe he won't be a good boy.


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    #18
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    As I mentioned in another thread...

    Until such time as Irish people no longer see themselves as needing "our" commissioner on a commission that is supposed to represent the EU as a whole, we are unlikely to accept an elected council president from another country. If we vote we would have 0.8% of the European total. Can't you hear the complaints now? Someday we will be ready for this, but not today.

    Anyhow, it's important to point out more forcefully that this post is more akin to a senior civil servant with perhaps a PR agenda also. This person is NOT the president of the EU. He is president of the EU council. In fact I think the title may be inappropriate. Leader of the council? Council administrator? Council co-ordinator.

    Ix.


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    #19
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    President has no power, that's why he/she will be unelected by citizens. Why should we elect a guy with no power at all?? Wasting our money and time.


    By the way, did you know that Bertie Ahern, former Prime Minister, is the bookmaker's leading candidate for President?? He has ore bets than Tony Blair and Angela Merkel!!
    By Irish bookmakers, I bet!

    There is not a hope in hell of Bertie getting that job, the EU looks bad enough already, do they really want a politician of questionable at best ethics being the president of european council?

    Besides i've read that the Danish PM has it in the bag anyway. THat's where the smart money is going.


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    #20
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    johnnyq wrote: »
    You'd sware that europeans were incapable of learning other languages, when in fact most european citizens are bilingual (usually with english as their language) at least. Besides the EU has two working languages - french and english. Let them campaign in those languages.
    It would be rather unfair to suggest that candidates would have to speak fluent English or French. What would happen is that there would be translators at the debates. Then they would have televised debates and debate what? Personality? Which might be hard to get across in another language.

    johnnyq wrote: »
    Is that what our president does? She's directly elected and doesn't call all the shots. The current role, democratically elected would do fine.
    It's interesting to note that there were not many street protests in Ireland when our politicians decided not to bother with a presidential election last time. There is a good parallel here. Most EU citizens probably won't care about the council president either, as it is a role without any decision making power.

    Ix


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    #21
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    You'd sware that europeans were incapable of learning other languages, when in fact most european citizens are bilingual (usually with english as their language) at least. Besides the EU has two working languages - french and english. Let them campaign in those languages.

    It's far more difficult to learn 20+ languages than two, and around 40% of the EU don't speak either French or English, would you not be giving them the shaft? As I have stated before in a few decades things will be different, the parliament will be more mature and of proper working parties and English will be the lingua-franca by default (89% of schoolchildren in the EU are currently learning Englsih). Then you can revisit the idea of elections but not until then. My idea of the future would be to replace the commission with a cabinet of MEP's and to have a Prime MEP so to speak, but not for at least 20 or more years.

    johnnyq wrote: »
    Not convinced on that one. the eu really is going nowhere like a eurostate:rolleyes:

    Is that what our president does? She's directly elected and doesn't call all the shots. The current role, democratically elected would do fine.

    The president chairs the European council and organises the agenda, he/she does not have a vote and has no power to act alone. They will present a common voice for the council to the outside world (this will not be their own voice but the voice of the member of the European council).
    johnnyq wrote: »
    Like When he doesn't do what he is told or something? Maybe he won't be a good boy.

    Exactly, if Bush was a Prime Minister instead of a president he probably would have been sacked by now.


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    #22
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Every time the idea of a directly elected President is mooted, I ask a simple question, and every time I ask it, I'm ignored by those who posed the original question.

    I'll try one more time: if the President were to be directly elected, what mechanism should be used? Majority vote across the entire Union? Some form of QMV? Electoral college? FPTP? STV?


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    #23
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭darkman2


    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/brunowaterfield/june2008/irishreferendumeeas.htm


    Biased but interesting.......


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    #24
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Every time the idea of a directly elected President is mooted, I ask a simple question, and every time I ask it, I'm ignored by those who posed the original question.

    I'll try one more time: if the President were to be directly elected, what mechanism should be used? Majority vote across the entire Union? Some form of QMV? Electoral college? FPTP? STV?

    People proposing direct elections haven't really thought it through imo. That is why you won't hear any ideas, it's because they have none.


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    #25
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7371840.stm


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    #26
    Duffman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭Duffman


    There already is a President of the Council people, Lisbon changes the length of his or her term of office - that is all.


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