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Game of Thrones A General Commentary (BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS)

2

Comments

  • #32
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    Wheel of Time, Dark Tower and LOTR are written to a significantly higher standard than ASOIAF.

    LOTR also had a more complex world. What GRRM has done, however, is successfully combine modern politics with many ubiquitous elements of the fantasy series. The result is a sprawling world which appears to nearly any type of TV/book fan. The next two books will tell us just how good he is; whether he has only the broad strokes and is hoping to wing the rest or whether it has indeed been an intricate, archaically woven story from start to finish.

    In HP's case, I am confident that an informed ghost writer could have taken over for books 6 and 7 onwards and produced just as good an ending if not better than JKR did. Whether or not this would be the case with ASOIAF is debatable right now but time will tell.


  • #33
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    I just couldn't get into Wheel of Time. Read the first book and gave up after that.


  • #34
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,289 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Wheel of Time, Dark Tower and LOTR are written to a significantly higher standard than ASOIAF.

    LOTR also had a more complex world. What GRRM has done, however, is successfully combine modern politics with many ubiquitous elements of the fantasy series. The result is a sprawling world which appears to nearly any type of TV/book fan. The next two books will tell us just how good he is; whether he has only the broad strokes and is hoping to wing the rest or whether it has indeed been an intricate, archaically woven story from start to finish.

    I never saw anything complex in LOTR at all.
    Wondering if I missed some subtleties in the trilogy that I read, but it seemed to be the ultimate 'These are the good guys, and here are the bad guys' book, chock full of single dimensional characters with zero depth, most of them completely interchangeable as they have little unique about them. So limited was Tolkiens writing that we don't even get an insight, a line of dialogue even, from the main antagonist Sauron.
    Absolutely hated it.


  • #35
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    The amount of background work Tolkien put into his series is remarkable. I mean he even wrote a language!

    Let me put it this way. You'd never get a "is X a good fighter/battle commander" debacle in LoTR because Tolkien would have a full manuscript detailing every fight/movement in the battle that happened.


  • #36
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Wheel of Time, Dark Tower and LOTR are written to a significantly higher standard than ASOIAF.
    WoT better written? Are you kidding me? I enjoyed the story for but my chief gripe with the books were the poor writing... the prose improved markedly when Sanderson took over and he's far from a literary great.

    Dark Tower is on my to-read list but while I'll probably give LOTR another chance, it's low down the pile based on my last experience of it (and the fact that I found large parts of the movies tedious in the extreme).


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  • #37
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Can I just say to all of you who have a The Dark Tower on your must read list, I enjoyed it more than ASOIAF, LOTR, more than ANYTHING I've ever read! The quality does go up and down, the first book is a slightly different style and years pass between the first books and the rest of them, King goes through drug addiction, comes out the other side, loses his way and writes some tripe for a while, but they really really work and best of all, a great ending!

    I love them! The first line captured me "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed".

    I need you guys to read them so we can discuss who should play who in the tv show :)


  • #38
    Washington Irving
    Registered Users Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Washington Irving


    Sleepy wrote: »
    It fails the same style test as Joyce does for me: if you need a second page to complete a sentence, you've failed at your use of the English language. ;)

    Tolkien worked at the Oxford English Dictionary, was reader of English at the University of Leeds, was a professor of English language and literature at Oxford, was an external examiner for UCD, and translated Beowulf, the Book of Jonah, and Pearl, among others.

    He arguably had a better grasp on the English language than anyone alive at the time.

    Fair enough if you didn't like his writing style but to claim he "failed at (his) use of the English language" is crazy.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    asoiaf and Harry Potter are the only ones I can think of where I had to wait for books! Shame Martin isn't as prolific as Rowling!

    Saw this the other day, thought it was interesting:

    T1QkXsQ.jpg


  • #39
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    username123 wrote: »
    Can I just say to all of you who have a The Dark Tower on your must read list, I enjoyed it more than ASOIAF, LOTR, more than ANYTHING I've ever read! The quality does go up and down, the first book is a slightly different style and years pass between the first books and the rest of them, King goes through drug addiction, comes out the other side, loses his way and writes some tripe for a while, but they really really work and best of all, a great ending!

    I love them! The first line captured me "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed".

    I need you guys to read them so we can discuss who should play who in the tv show :)

    After reading this post I started reading The Gunslinger. I'm just 127 pages into it and I'm very intrigued.. Whenever "The man in black" is mentioned I always think of Johnny Cash but I reckon that will change.
    I still don't really get where or when it's set (Hey Jude??) but I'm fascinated by it and will plough through. Thanks for the recommendation..

    Edit: Half three in the morning and I just finished The Gunslinger. Great book.. I love the world it's set in (even if I still don't fully get it) and the mix of real life history and mysterious fantasy is enough to keep me interested in the series.


  • #40
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    Sleepy wrote: »
    WoT better written? Are you kidding me? I enjoyed the story for but my chief gripe with the books were the poor writing... the prose improved markedly when Sanderson took over and he's far from a literary great.

    Dark Tower is on my to-read list but while I'll probably give LOTR another chance, it's low down the pile based on my last experience of it (and the fact that I found large parts of the movies tedious in the extreme).

    It wasn't great and as you say did indeed improve quite a bit but it's still better written than ASOIAF in my opinion. "As useful as nipples on a breastplate" has to be the worst analogy in the history of fantasy writing. You don't have to be a literary great to beat that.

    I'm surprised so many of you aren't LoTR fans but each to their own.


  • #41
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    GerB40 wrote: »
    After reading this post I started reading The Gunslinger. I'm just 127 pages into it and I'm very intrigued.. Whenever "The man in black" is mentioned I always think of Johnny Cash but I reckon that will change.
    I still don't really get where or when it's set (Hey Jude??) but I'm fascinated by it and will plough through. Thanks for the recommendation..

    Edit: Half three in the morning and I just finished The Gunslinger. Great book.. I love the world it's set in (even if I still don't fully get it) and the mix of real life history and mysterious fantasy is enough to keep me interested in the series.

    When you get to the end of The Wastelands, pause and think how it would be if you had to wait 6 years for the next one, like I did!

    Delighted you're hooked, it gets weirder!


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  • #42
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    It wasn't great and as you say did indeed improve quite a bit but it's still better written than ASOIAF in my opinion. "As useful as nipples on a breastplate" has to be the worst analogy in the history of fantasy writing. You don't have to be a literary great to beat that.
    I actually rather like it the first time I read it, it's the over-use of the phrase that makes it painful (akin to the skirt smoothing and braid tugging in WOT).

    TBH, I always assumed it was initially, at least, a dig at the Clooney batsuit.


  • #43
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    username123 wrote: »
    When you get to the end of The Wastelands, pause and think how it would be if you had to wait 6 years for the next one, like I did!

    Delighted you're hooked, it gets weirder!

    Right I'm finished the second book and I was wondering could we start a thread about The Dark Tower that doesn't give spoilers about books that haven't been read.. I'd love that but as I've only read the first two I'm not sure if that's possible..
    I don't know anyone who has read the books but I'm dying to talk about them.
    Plus I don't wanna search boards to see if this exists already for fear of being spoiled..
    Watcha think??


  • #44
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    GerB40 wrote: »
    Right I'm finished the second book and I was wondering could we start a thread about The Dark Tower that doesn't give spoilers about books that haven't been read.. I'd love that but as I've only read the first two I'm not sure if that's possible..
    I don't know anyone who has read the books but I'm dying to talk about them.
    Plus I don't wanna search boards to see if this exists already for fear of being spoiled..
    Watcha think??

    Yeah I'm on for that. Where could we have it?


  • #45
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    SciFi & Fantasy Forum > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=93


  • #46
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,957 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I've watched the series to the end of S4, and am 1/3 of the way through the first book. I'm probably going to read as far as I can, beyond the TV series.

    The main "takeaway" I've got from the book so far is just how young many of the main characters are, and how much growing up they have to do in a hurry. The series underplays this aspect, since the actors are mostly older than their characters in the book. For example, Daenerys is just thirteen when she's (basically) sold to the Dothraki, and finds out she's pregnant on her fourteenth birthday. Jon Snow heads to the Wall at the age of fourteen, while Robb finds himself Lord of Winterfell at the same age.

    Bran is only seven at the start, when he witnesses the beheading of a deserter. Sansa is eleven when she's betrothed to Joffrey, with the plan to marry at thirteen when he will be fourteen. Arya is about nine when she sees her friend, the butcher boy, butchered by the Hound, and both girls aren't much older when they see their father beheaded and her adventures start not long after that.

    You really have to wonder what this is doing to the characters as they grow older. They're not going to be normal, are they? I don't know what happens to Arya after the end of TV season 4, but I'm going to read the books to find out.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • #47
    nyarlothothep
    Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Spoilers ahead...

    Ok, I've just watched episode 8 and I had to post this as it was just overboard imo. I could handle the Red Wedding, it was horrible, granted but it was Shakespearean also, but this...this was just grotesque, disgusting and for the instant gratification twitter heads. Why, how could you kill Oberyn like that? I mean The Mountain is a monster, not just metaphorically, he is a freak of nature, a force of destruction and horror, if you've read the books the descriptions evoke this a lot, and I was totally rooting for Oberyn. The speech he gives to Tyrion saying he will be his champion and the way it's delivered, you cant help but want him to win. And then the comedy-drinking before the fight, this guy is cool, he's going to kill this murdering, raping giant dickhead and Cersei isn't going to get her way for once. And then, then he gets pulled down on a sneak move due to gloating a bit too much and not only do his eyes get gouged out (throughout that whole interval I was waiting for him to at least deliver another death blow to The Mountain) but his head has to fcking explode. And not only that, we hear The Mountain deliver his stinging retort as Oberyn is forced to hear, realising in utter agony that his entire life's mission and the honour of his family has been thrown away. What the ****?!

    This is like that South Park episode where Indiana Jones gets raped, that's pretty much what I felt this was like for the viewer. It was wrong on every level. And this is my problem with GoT, it's basically treating the audience like Reek, we are punished repeatedly, kicked in the teeth, tortured and they use this gimmick of gratuitous and horrible death scenes for the few good characters in the show to keep us hooked. Well I'm watching the next 2 episodes but I'm not going to enjoy them, I certainly haven't enjoyed this one at all, I will watch them with a fck you attitude to the narrative because it just seems like the evil characters are getting a free pass in this series to do anything they want, they triumph everywhere and often just by pure luck. Sansa's apparent transformation, if it's genuine, was also another sign of this gimmicky approach. Oh yeah, and The Hound's "flea bite" wound, what are the odds it's going to end up killing him just like Khal Drogo?


  • #48
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    nyarlothothep wrote: »
    Spoilers ahead...

    Ok, I've just watched episode 8 and I had to post this as it was just overboard imo. I could handle the Red Wedding, it was horrible, granted but it was Shakespearean also, but this...this was just grotesque, disgusting and for the instant gratification twitter heads. Why, how could you kill Oberyn like that? I mean The Mountain is a monster, not just metaphorically, he is a freak of nature, a force of destruction and horror, if you've read the books the descriptions evoke this a lot, and I was totally rooting for Oberyn. The speech he gives to Tyrion saying he will be his champion and the way it's delivered, you cant help but want him to win. And then the comedy-drinking before the fight, this guy is cool, he's going to kill this murdering, raping giant dickhead and Cersei isn't going to get her way for once. And then, then he gets pulled down on a sneak move due to gloating a bit too much and not only do his eyes get gouged out (throughout that whole interval I was waiting for him to at least deliver another death blow to The Mountain) but his head has to fcking explode. And not only that, we hear The Mountain deliver his stinging retort as Oberyn is forced to hear, realising in utter agony that his entire life's mission and the honour of his family has been thrown away. What the ****?!

    This is like that South Park episode where Indiana Jones gets raped, that's pretty much what I felt this was like for the viewer. It was wrong on every level. And this is my problem with GoT, it's basically treating the audience like Reek, we are punished repeatedly, kicked in the teeth, tortured and they use this gimmick of gratuitous and horrible death scenes for the few good characters in the show to keep us hooked. Well I'm watching the next 2 episodes but I'm not going to enjoy them, I certainly haven't enjoyed this one at all, I will watch them with a fck you attitude to the narrative because it just seems like the evil characters are getting a free pass in this series to do anything they want, they triumph everywhere and often just by pure luck. Sansa's apparent transformation, if it's genuine, was also another sign of this gimmicky approach. Oh yeah, and The Hound's "flea bite" wound, what are the odds it's going to end up killing him just like Khal Drogo?

    Have you read the books?


  • #49
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    nyarlothothep wrote: »
    Spoilers ahead...

    Ok, I've just watched episode 8 and I had to post this as it was just overboard imo. I could handle the Red Wedding, it was horrible, granted but it was Shakespearean also, but this...this was just grotesque, disgusting and for the instant gratification twitter heads. Why, how could you kill Oberyn like that? I mean The Mountain is a monster, not just metaphorically, he is a freak of nature, a force of destruction and horror, if you've read the books the descriptions evoke this a lot, and I was totally rooting for Oberyn. The speech he gives to Tyrion saying he will be his champion and the way it's delivered, you cant help but want him to win. And then the comedy-drinking before the fight, this guy is cool, he's going to kill this murdering, raping giant dickhead and Cersei isn't going to get her way for once. And then, then he gets pulled down on a sneak move due to gloating a bit too much and not only do his eyes get gouged out (throughout that whole interval I was waiting for him to at least deliver another death blow to The Mountain) but his head has to fcking explode. And not only that, we hear The Mountain deliver his stinging retort as Oberyn is forced to hear, realising in utter agony that his entire life's mission and the honour of his family has been thrown away. What the ****?!

    This is like that South Park episode where Indiana Jones gets raped, that's pretty much what I felt this was like for the viewer. It was wrong on every level. And this is my problem with GoT, it's basically treating the audience like Reek, we are punished repeatedly, kicked in the teeth, tortured and they use this gimmick of gratuitous and horrible death scenes for the few good characters in the show to keep us hooked. Well I'm watching the next 2 episodes but I'm not going to enjoy them, I certainly haven't enjoyed this one at all, I will watch them with a fck you attitude to the narrative because it just seems like the evil characters are getting a free pass in this series to do anything they want, they triumph everywhere and often just by pure luck. Sansa's apparent transformation, if it's genuine, was also another sign of this gimmicky approach. Oh yeah, and The Hound's "flea bite" wound, what are the odds it's going to end up killing him just like Khal Drogo?

    Don't worry m8 Arya is gonna kill all teh bad guys.


  • #50
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,957 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    nyarlothothep wrote: »
    Spoilers ahead...

    Ok, I've just watched episode 8 and I had to post this as it was just overboard imo.
    ...
    I think you're going to enjoy the last couple of episodes of season 4, then. ;)

    PS: you don't have to quote a whole post to add a one-line reply ...

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • #51
    nyarlothothep
    Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    GerB40 wrote: »
    Have you read the books?

    No, although I wonder now whether Ayra is going to kill all the villains. I'm dissapointed by her character transformation, why didn't she mercy kill The Hound? Ok I get that her experiences could fundamentally change her but she built up a rapport/friendship with The Hound who at the end of the day is a good person. Also Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin? In particular Tywin who did say he wouldn't have been executed, although he was probably lying, but Tyrion seems to have crossed a line. I'm looking forward to The Mountain's "transformation," also I really liked the prehistoric vibe of the battle for Castle Black and the scenes with Bran, they evoke an area of fantasy that seems overlooked, that kind of prehistoric, arcane world which still has swords etc but it seems much more ancient. Ah I'll keep watching it I guess.


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  • #52
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,933 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    nyarlothothep wrote: »
    Spoilers ahead...

    Ok, I've just watched episode 8 and I had to post this as it was just overboard imo.


    Happens pretty much the exact same way in the book, minus some of Oberyn's cooler quotes during the fight.

    That scene wasn't the show trying shock tactics, they were following the book fairly well.


  • #53
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I thought they said it will be 7 seasons?

    Either way I'm ok with it, I think the show is better than the books overall anyway.

    :eek:


  • #54
    AnneSam
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭AnneSam


    Oberyns death is played out pretty much to the tee of the scene in the books, the evolution of the characters as the books/show moves forward is definitely more explicable. Arya always annoyed me, and Sansa but they begin to come into their own and become very much the products of their experiences. I think the book deal very much with the fact that simple/historical choices (Jons mother??) have paved the way for these current circumstances and that all that the characters have to go through. If Lysa had never falsified the facts in the letter to Cat about Jon Arryns death would Ned Stark have investigated further and ruffled Cerseis feathers?? Its brilliant I really have very little to fault about the books (aside from feast of crows that was tough to get through!) or the series.


  • #55
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,059 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    Happens pretty much the exact same way in the book, minus some of Oberyn's cooler quotes during the fight.

    That scene wasn't the show trying shock tactics, they were following the book fairly well.

    The Mountain came off as more of an oaf in the book talking about Oberyn making his head hurt and such. More gruesome parts too with the slicing in half of civilians and whatnot. I was happy with the adaptation though.


  • #56
    snow scorpion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,179 ✭✭✭snow scorpion


    Maybe it makes me a horrible human being, but this video makes me laugh every time I see it.



  • #57
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    username123 wrote: »
    When you get to the end of The Wastelands, pause and think how it would be if you had to wait 6 years for the next one, like I did!

    Delighted you're hooked, it gets weirder!

    I'm just starting the last book now, The Dark Tower. (Not counting The Wind Through The Keyhole, which I'll undoubtedly read too). Jesus when you said it gets weirder you weren't joking.

    It got to a point in Song of Susannah that it officially became to weird to explain to anyone who hasn't read it (walk-ins?!?). But the best thing about the story is that slight believability about it. Yeah, I know it's gone completely mental where I am in the story but the characters recognise how bizzare it is rather than accept it like in other fiction..

    I think after this I'll leave fantasy alone until The Winds of Winter, hopefully it won't be too long now..


  • #58
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    http://airherald.com/game-of-thrones-movie-coming-after-winds-of-winter/17399/

    I wouldn't hold my breath on this but if it did happen it would have to be Dunk and Egg ten years after The Mystery Knight. Then again it could be anything knowing GRRM.

    I just finished the three novellas and the geek in me would love to see a Targaryen filled story (especially Bloodraven) but I can't imagine viewers caring much about what they'll inevitably see as Game of Thrones without their favourite characters.

    What do ye reckon? Another wishful thinking moment from ASoIaF fans or a chance to expand on an already over bloated world??


  • #59
    delaad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭delaad


    First time I've watched this, but the english bit of it(yorkshire v london) strikes me as Emmerdale wi' a fair bit of riding - especially by a vertically challenged gentleman - gratuitous nudity and a nice little bit of beheading.

    IOW, it's a an attempt to exhibit the naughty bits of modern society thru' an arty version of the "barbaric" past,... i.e., its voyeurism in purest form!


  • #60
    GerB40
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭GerB40


    Game of Thrones Season 5: A Day in the Life (HBO): http://youtu.be/p9Mi17nLflY Very interesting look at the making Game of Thrones...


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  • #61
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,625 ✭✭✭eire4


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I thought they said it will be 7 seasons?

    Either way I'm ok with it, I think the show is better than the books overall anyway.



    I just got into the show earlier this year but absolutely loved it once I started and ended up when I had some time binge watching my way through season by season till I was all caught up. I haven't read any of the books yet but did buy the first 2 and put them into my to read pile. Looking forward to reading them and not bothered that I have already seen the show.


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