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HID Lights in the NCT

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    From reading on BMW Driver, you can get a letter from a main dealer to say that XYZ car came with xenons but never with washers / auto-adjustment and this is fine with the NCT.

    Have you got a link to this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    I have factory HID in my Chaser, no washers, have only manual leveler, I dont know if I could even put halogen bulbs in there as the headlight is not designed for such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    djimi wrote: »
    Have you got a link to this?

    http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88241

    Reading it again, this is the route the guy is going down but hasn't been an update since: http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88241


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    djimi wrote: »
    Im fighting this exact battle with the NCT right now for my DC2. I wasnt going to post in this thread until I had an update, but Ill let you know how I get on.
    You are bloody kidding me D. :eek::mad: How stupid are these gobshítes writing these regs, where they don't allow for a "where factory fitted" clause? They do for other parts, like ABS, catalytic convertors, airbags, even bloody windscreen washers FFS, but not this*? Utter stupidity. I'll let you know how I get on this sunday. No doubt this varies between centers and testers. If I pass, could you bring your car to another center for the retest? I dunno if that's possible though.




    *Actually particular car is a good example of that. Though ABS/airbags were an option on my model, mine came without both options as standard from the factory and not once has a tester suggested I retrofit these two items, so why would they suggest a fail for having factory fitted HIDs where no options for washers existed?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Wibbs wrote: »
    You are bloody kidding me D. :eek::mad: How stupid are these gobshítes writing these regs, where they don't allow for a "where factory fitted" clause? They do for other parts, like ABS, catalytic convertors, airbags, even bloody windscreen washers FFS, but not this*? Utter stupidity. I'll let you know how I get on this sunday. No doubt this varies between centers and testers. If I pass, could you bring your car to another center for the retest? I dunno if that's possible though.


    *Actually particular car is a good example of that. Though ABS/airbags were an option on my model, mine came without both options as standard from the factory and not once has a tester suggested I retrofit these two items, so why would they suggest a fail for having factory fitted HIDs where no options for washers existed?

    The regs are fine, the issue is NCT not knowing if washers or levelling are mandatory for specific cars. If washers/leveller weren't mandatory when the manufacturer obtained type-approval for your model then the regs don't apply to you, even if (I would argue) they were fitted as an optional extra (which imo is even better than 'where factory fitted').

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0103.html
    (1) By adding the following reasons for refusal to Item 30 of the Schedule—

    (15) light source and lamp not compatible.

    (16) where a levelling device is mandatory, the levelling device is not operating.

    (17) where a levelling device is mandatory, the levelling device cannot be operated from the driver’s seat.

    (18) where a headlamp cleaning device is mandatory, the headlamp cleaning device is not operating correctly.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Sorry SJ, I meant the NCT regs. In a previous thread on the subject someone posted up a pic of the page from the NCT testers handbook and it wasn't quite following those regs you linked to. It stated baldly no washers + levelers on HID's = FAIL. No "where fitted/mandatory" part to it. Its seems whichever beige cubicle dwelling bureaucrat penned the NCT handbook didn't quite understand the nuances of mandatory. That's the problem and as it seems Djimi is discovering, an actual real world problem with it.

    As for testers on the ground not knowing which model has which, a pretty simple back of the envelope type thinking(god forbid) would suggest that a) any car built before the date where this became regulation is OK(where the HID's are clearly factory and even Stevie Wonder could spot this) and/or b) where it's plainly obvious no such mechanisms were ever present on the car in question. Now so far up to last year this wasn't mentioned by testers who seemed to know the model pretty well and exercised their cop on, even if the NCT reg writers didn't. It'll be interesting to see how it goes with me on Sunday.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭thats not gone well


    I'm in a similar situation being that, I wanted xenon lights the most legitimate way I could.

    They were offered as an option on my car as xenon reflectors.
    I bought two complete xenon units, installed and aligned them.
    There's no distinguishable difference from the outside with the lights off that they are totally different from standard halogens.

    Now, when they were factory fitted, washers and self levelling were fitted also.
    But being a Volvo, not all cars that have headlamp washers have xenons:rolleyes:

    From my understanding the NCT manual says manual adjusters are adequate as long as they work.
    16
    Automatic headlamp levelling device not operating or manual
    headlamp levelling device cannot be operated from driver’s seat

    They washers are a different story however.
    I could install a separate washer pump and jets in the bumper if required.

    If there are early 00's cars that never had washers or self levelling will that mean that my set-up is equally legitimate and legal?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    If there are early 00's cars that never had washers or self levelling will that mean that my set-up is equally legitimate and legal?
    I suspect not T as your setup is not as left the factory/standard and if it comes to it Volvo will state that if it had HIDs from the factory it also had the other bits and bobs that you're missing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭thats not gone well


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I suspect not T as your setup is not as left the factory/standard and if it comes to it Volvo will state that if it had HIDs from the factory it also had the other bits and bobs that you're missing.


    looks like keeping the halogen units was a good idea after all :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    Does anyone know when the EU regulation was introduced that made the washers / levellers mandatory?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    Does anyone know when the EU regulation was introduced that made the washers / levellers mandatory?

    Does it matter ? It should have a manual adjust inside the cabin that is physically functioning if it does not have self levelling

    In basic form the vehicle should be as it was when it left the factory OR if aftermarket parts are fitted they should be to the standard of when the vehicle left the factory.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    looks like keeping the halogen units was a good idea after all :(
    Maybe a more long term solution might be if you sourced the washers and levelers from a scrapped Volvo like yours and fit them? I dunno how easy that would be or if the loom was the same for both models?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    listermint wrote: »
    Does it matter ? It should have a manual adjust inside the cabin that is physically functioning.

    In basic form the vehicle should be as it was when it left the factory OR if aftermarket parts are fitted they should be to the standard of when the vehicle left the factory.

    :rolleyes:

    Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭thats not gone well


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Maybe a more long term solution might be if you sourced the washers and levelers from a scrapped Volvo like yours and fit them? I dunno how easy that would be or if the loom was the same for both models?

    The wipers are a pain.
    new bumper, arms and motors.

    anyone that has had them on another forum in the uk took them off when the gave trouble.

    The headlight swap is 2 hours work. Not the end of the world but a hassle I could do without.

    Beginning to think I'd have been better off with a Chinese HID kin in the halogen lamps blinding everybody :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.

    What soap box paddy? And whats with the rolls eyes. If you are looking for specifics go into the Dealer and ask them. They can get the information for you.

    Theres nothing soapbox about what i am telling you, so please refrain from using that old chestnut it does nothing for your comments.

    The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.

    So whats your point ?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Get down off your soap box. I'll be ensuring my car is 100% for the NCT so will be retrofitting what is required. What I asked was when did the EU make this a mandatory requirement for manufacturers? I've searched online but can't find the specifics.
    IIRC it was around 2005-06
    listermint wrote: »
    The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.
    Unless it came with neither in the first place

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    listermint wrote: »
    What soap box paddy? And whats with the rolls eyes. If you are looking for specifics go into the Dealer and ask them. They can get the information for you.

    Theres nothing soapbox about what i am telling you, so please refrain from using that old chestnut it does nothing for your comments.

    The NCT enforcement is being designed to insure that the vehicles are up to their factory specifications. That is all. You would have manual adjustment if you dont have levellers and visa versa.

    So whats your point ?

    I only asked a simple question as I can't find the details online. The reason I'm asking is that the wording of the NCT manual is vague. What if HIDs are retrofitted to a car (let's say circa-early '00s) when the car was not required to have the levellers or washers from the factory. Must they now also retrofit washers even though they weren't mandatory on that car when it was first built?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    I've found the appropriate regulation from the EU, ECE Regulation 48, which is what the NCT are basing their rules upon.

    Link to regulation (most recent version I can find): http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r48r6e.pdf

    I can't figure out when the amendments were made to include the use of a headlight cleaning system but I think it could have been as far back as June 2007. If someone with more brains than me can take a look and maybe clarify?

    The reason I'm asking, as pointed out above, is if a car was built prior to this regulation being introduced, where does that leave cars which have retrofitted HIDs? Do the regulations of the year it was built apply? Are the retrofit installation of washers 'mandatory' even if an identical car built at the same time which came with factory HIDs does not have washers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Wibbs wrote: »
    IIRC it was around 2005-06

    Unless it came with neither in the first place

    So cars came with HID in them from factory had no adjustment in them be it manually inside the cab or auto levelling with washers ?

    Which models ?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Try reading the thread maybe? Yes, before these more recent regulations, quite the number of cars came factory fitted and type approved with HID lights, but without leveling(manual or automatic) or headlight washers. Any number of Honda's from late 90's to mid noughties, various Mitsubishi models of similar vintage, Mercedes and BMW and Audis. No doubt others can add to this list.

    This is the point that some of us are making. This is why it's beyond windlowlicking daft to find the NCT regulations have not taken this into account and people are failing NCT's over this. The EU and Irish government regs have the "where fitted" remark(see slimjimmc's post above), but some crosseyed eejit or eejits writing up the official NCT manual listened to too many Joe Duffy programmes about aftermarket HID's and applied the big hammer to one problem while not taking into account, I dunno, the actual real world. It's akin to regulating that all cars regardless of age must present for NCT having ABS, catalytic converters and Airbags because that's now a regulation from a later date.

    This is affecting people as we speak. QV Djimi's current experience
    djimi wrote: »
    Im fighting this exact battle with the NCT right now for my DC2. I wasnt going to post in this thread until I had an update, but Ill let you know how I get on.
    I've the same model of car; 1998 spec Honda Integra Type R and they came factory fitted with HID's but no washers or levelers and no option or way to retrofit them even if one wanted to.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Try reading the thread maybe? Yes, before these more recent regulations, quite the number of cars came factory fitted and type approved with HID lights, but without leveling(manual or automatic) or headlight washers. Any number of Honda's from late 90's to mid noughties, various Mitsubishi models of similar vintage, Mercedes and BMW and Audis. No doubt others can add to this list.

    This is the point that some of us are making. This is why it's beyond windlowlicking daft to find the NCT regulations have not taken this into account and people are failing NCT's over this. The EU and Irish government regs have the "where fitted" remark(see slimjimmc's post above), but some crosseyed eejit or eejits writing up the official NCT manual listened to too many Joe Duffy programmes about aftermarket HID's and applied the big hammer to one problem while not taking into account, I dunno, the actual real world. It's akin to regulating that all cars regardless of age must present for NCT having ABS, catalytic converters and Airbags because that's now a regulation from a later date.

    This is affecting people as we speak. QV Djimi's current experience

    I've the same model of car; 1998 spec Honda Integra Type R and they came factory fitted with HID's but no washers or levelers and no option or way to retrofit them even if one wanted to.

    I have read the thread perfectly, and as i said name some models. Any Hondas that i know off all the way back to 92 had headlight adjustment on them inside the cab next to the steering wheel. As i said my assumption is that if a vehicle had HID from factory then yes it has these adjustment ability either manual or auto level.

    I asked for models, so condescending remarks like 'read the thread' are ridiculous. I have no problem being wrong but saying stupid stuff like read the thread when i asked a question about models explains alot about you not reading the question asked.

    (ridiculous)


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Second question is did the Honda Integra 1998 actually have HID as an option from factory. I literally can only find people installing OEM kits from other Marques Audi and the S2K. Do you have anything to confirm HID was a legit option on the 1998 Intergra?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    listermint wrote: »
    Second question is did the Honda Integra 1998 actually have HID as an option from factory. I literally can only find people installing OEM kits from other Marques Audi and the S2K. Do you have anything to confirm HID was a legit option on the 1998 Intergra?

    HID was the only headlight option in the 98 spec Type R Integra. It came with neither an adjuster or a washer. I have confirmed this with Honda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    djimi wrote: »
    HID was the only headlight option in the 98 spec Type R Integra. It came with neither an adjuster or a washer. I have confirmed this with Honda.

    Is there a reason why then alot of owners were installing aftermarket kits such as JDM and obviously the ones i indicated above if they already and only had HID as an option on this model


    e.g. http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?9938-94-01-Gen3-Integra-OEM-Projector-Specs-w-HID-Info


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    I dont know to be honest. Maybe the Acura Integra and the UKDM spec were different.

    I contacted Honda, gave them my chassis number and asked them to check the stock headlight unit for my car (JDM) and the only one that came up on the system was HID.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Clearly you did miss a number of posts in this thread where models were named.
    the lancer evo came with xenon lights and no washers
    Wibbs wrote: »
    As did my Integra type R DC2(DC5 the same IIRC). Ditto for my mates early noughties Mercedes. I'd bet it's a long list.
    Paddy@CIRL wrote: »
    From reading on BMW Driver, you can get a letter from a main dealer to say that XYZ car came with xenons but never with washers / auto-adjustment and this is fine with the NCT.
    I have factory HID in my Chaser, no washers, have only manual leveler, I dont know if I could even put halogen bulbs in there as the headlight is not designed for such.

    I also posted a link where some gobdaws up the North failed a guy's Evo for this http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures (though in the rest of the UK the testers are using some cop on).

    I have named models in my last post. I specifically named my and Djimi's model of Honda. The replacement for that model the Integra DC5 also came without washers. The Mitsubishi Evo of various numbers also came sans washers/levelers, ditto for Subaru's. Lest anyone pipes up about imports models my mates Irish market 03 Merc also with HID's but no washers. Porsche Boxsters also came sans washers for a time.

    Clarified enough now?
    Second question is did the Honda Integra 1998 actually have HID as an option from factory.
    Yes. It wasn't even an option(unlike ABS/SRS/Radio/parcel shelf etc) it just had them.
    Is there a reason why then alot of owners were installing aftermarket kits such as JDM and obviously the ones i indicated above if they already and only had HID as an option on this model
    Because either they didn't have a 98 spec type R(usually a lesser model from the range like an SI), or they had a pre 98 R. No 98 spec came without them.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,380 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    djimi wrote: »
    I dont know to be honest. Maybe the Acura Integra and the UKDM spec were different.

    I contacted Honda, gave them my chassis number and asked them to check the stock headlight unit for my car (JDM) and the only one that came up on the system was HID.

    Personally id be concerned about anything a dealer tells me unless i have it on paper. From lots of experience with parts departments in the past, the issue is between the desk and the keyboard. (no offence on the advise you were given)


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    listermint wrote: »
    Personally id be concerned about anything a dealer tells me unless i have it on paper. From lots of experience with parts departments in the past, the issue is between the desk and the keyboard. (no offence on the advise you were given)

    I was dealing with Honda Ireland, not a dealer.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    djimi wrote: »
    I dont know to be honest. Maybe the Acura Integra and the UKDM spec were different.
    The UKDM came with different front end, bumper, bonnet and lights HID, with a manual leveler in the cabin. IIRC the US Acura didn't have HIDs so...

    JDM 98 spec

    dc2-integra-98-spec.jpg

    UKDM

    000035-4ecbacc7ee3bd-L.jpg

    Even if you have the UKDM version some muppet could still fail you going on these regs as it can clearly be seen no washers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    listermint wrote: »
    Personally id be concerned about anything a dealer tells me unless i have it on paper. From lots of experience with parts departments in the past, the issue is between the desk and the keyboard. (no offence on the advise you were given)
    *heads desk* Jesus, LM how much evidence/convincing do you require?

    I know my model of car backwards, I know the options, I'm even sad enough to have a pretty good overview of the different models/options across different markets(red back seats in the Canadian one the oddest) and I can happily state with no fear of contradiction that Japanese domestic market 98 spec type R's never came without HID's and never had washers(or levelers). Indeed if you can find me an original 98 spec R as it left the factory minus HID's I'll give the keys to my car.

    Since HID/Xenon lighting was introduced many models of cars from many different manufacturers had no option for washers and others had no option for leveling, manual or automatic. This is a fact, no if's buts, maybes.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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