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Help me help a friend

  • 26-06-2012 9:57pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,983 ✭✭✭


    I've got a very close friend who is a strong Christian believer. family, friends, the works.

    She's agreed to read a book of my choosing.

    I'm hoping to start with evolution, and stuff like the earth isn't 7000 years old, Adam/eve, universe doesn't give a **** about us etc. Just kinda dispute the all perfect factual Bible stuff, not attack her faith in a god. not yet anyway, that's likely going to take a very long time.

    I've read and own a few Dawkins books, and while good, he's a bit of a condescending D!ck, and assumes you have doubt in your mind already if you get me.

    any suggestions? maybe a more entry level Dawkins that I don't know about?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Tell her to read the Bible, from the beginning to the end.

    No rational person can read that book and not walk away as an Atheist or Agnostic.

    I'm not even slightly joking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,983 ✭✭✭Tea_Bag


    I know what you mean, its probably the reason I'm atheist, but its not going to work. I'm not trying to say her beliefs are stupid, just that the Bible isn't infallible.

    I need something with simple, logical arguments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. srsly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    Not a book but a quick read of this gave me a lot of clarity.

    http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/evolution/evolution.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Honestly I'd start with "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson. Then "Cosmos" by Sagan. Then I'd move into something containing critical thinking. My personal recommendation would be "Theory and Reality by Peter Godfrey Smith" but that requires a bit of dedication on the reader's part. So perhaps something simpler like Asimov's essays. 'The Relativity of Wrong' being a good starter.


    At the same time I recommend reading up on books of neuroscience for yourself. Anything by Steven Pinker or Bruce Hood on the science of belief. Namely you want to familiarise yourself with how humans thinks so you can try to avoid a situation where your friend stonewalls. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Jernal has you sorted. I haven't read it myself, but one that I intend to read that may be worth reading... A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. Anyone here read it? Its on my to read list. Though I haven't even bought it yet, and when I do buy it, I have a number of other ones I'll get to before reading it. Anyone here get it yet?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,983 ✭✭✭Tea_Bag


    Jernal wrote: »
    Honestly I'd start with "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson. Then "Cosmos" by Sagan. Then I'd move into something containing critical thinking. My personal recommendation would be "Theory and Reality by Peter Godfrey Smith" but that requires a bit of dedication on the reader's part. So perhaps something simpler like Asimov's essays. 'The Relativity of Wrong' being a good starter.


    At the same time I recommend reading up on books of neuroscience for yourself. Anything by Steven Pinker or Bruce Hood on the science of belief. Namely you want to familiarise yourself with how humans thinks so you can try to avoid a situation where your friend stonewalls. :)
    Thanks.


    just ordered a short history of everything. £4.03 delivered. if anything, I'll get a read out of it, though I've a feeling I've read it before..


  • Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭NecroSteve


    Maybe some mythology from the general Mediterranean region. Lots of miracles, virgin births, resurrections, children of gods, etc. etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,983 ✭✭✭Tea_Bag


    NecroSteve wrote: »
    Maybe some mythology from the general Mediterranean region. Lots of miracles, virgin births, resurrections, children of gods, etc. etc.
    what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭Supermensch


    Nietzsche's The Will to Power has some fairly good logical arguments on Atheism. Heavy going, but an interesting read.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 182 ✭✭Burt Lancaster


    Tea_Bag wrote: »
    I'm hoping to start with evolution, and stuff like the earth isn't 7000 years old, Adam/eve, universe doesn't give a **** about us etc. Just kinda dispute the all perfect factual Bible stuff, not attack her faith in a god. not yet anyway, that's likely going to take a very long time.

    I've read and own a few Dawkins books, and while good, he's a bit of a condescending D!ck, and assumes you have doubt in your mind already if you get me.

    any suggestions? maybe a more entry level Dawkins that I don't know about?

    I'm not sure that’s a great starting point.
    Despite what the tinternet likes to portray, most mainstream Christian denominations, inc. Catholicism etc. are not actually creationists, but believe in theistic evolution, which in effect does not conflict with physical science, i.e. the how rather than the why.

    But if she happens to be a creationist such books might be educational


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,983 ✭✭✭Tea_Bag


    she is a creationist. I know evolution doesn't disprove a god, but it does put a big dent in the old testament.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Wot Jernal and Sarky said. Small Gods, the Bill Bryson book, and Cosmos. Should be enough there to get her started. FFS don't let her anywhere near Hitchens, he's an entertaining read, and fun to watch in an interview, but his books are far too pugnacious, in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Tea_Bag wrote: »
    what?

    I think that Necrosteve was hinting at the history of places like Egypt. The story of the virgin birth and the resurrection is common in other cultures, some pre-dating christianity. As to 'what' books, I wouldn't know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭im invisible


    The DaVinci Code


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    The DaVinci Code

    :D

    I found that challenged my faith in humanity, rather than my faith in god


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    A Letter to a Christian Nation - Sam Harris

    Short and sweet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    OP: Are you open to listening to what she has to say. What if she's right? It could be that you're not helping her?

    Sonics2k: I've read it through. When I did I stopped being an agnostic. The idea that atheists are the only rational people in society is laughable. Have you read it right through? If yes I'd be interested in getting into the details of it. If no why are you making this claim?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    I'd agree with Philologos. Why do you feel the need to force your beliefs on others? Just let her believe what she believes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I must have missed the part in the opening post where the OP mentioned tying his friend down and prying her eyelids open to read a book of his choosing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    I must have missed the part in the opening post where the OP mentioned tying his friend down and prying her eyelids open to read a book of his choosing.

    Well the OP obviously meant it metaphorically. ;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Tea_Bag - I'm not convinced "A Short History of Nearly Everything" is the best book for this. While it is excellent, I found it really just information overload without a particular voice.

    I'd recommend (as mentioned) Cosmos, or The Demon-Haunted World as Sagan writes passionately, but convincingly without being condecending and without being just chapter after chapter of sciencey stuff.
    philologos wrote: »
    OP: Are you open to listening to what she has to say. What if she's right? It could be that you're not helping her?
    She's a creationist. She's not right.
    humanji wrote: »
    I'd agree with Philologos. Why do you feel the need to force your beliefs on others? Just let her believe what she believes.

    You think it's a bad thing for a creationist who has agreed to read a book to do so?

    From the OP:
    Tea_Bag wrote: »
    She's agreed to read a book of my choosing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭FullBeard


    The best antidote to any given monotheistic belief in the first instance is not science, but a gentle assault by means of history (i.e. Thor, Zeus, Apollo, and the myriad of Jesus-like figures throughout mythology), and a philosophical dismantling of the common arguments that God must exist.
    You can also expose the poverty of "faith", explain why faith is not a virtue, and demonstrate that it is legitimate to substitute the word "God" in every sentence that is used to defend his existence, with "leprechaun".

    It's a bit early to frontload the science on your friend, in my opinion.

    I'm afraid that you might also need to be prepared to lose your friend over this issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,873 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    You could try Guy P Harrison '50 reasons people give for believing in a god'


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    I've read it through. When I did I stopped being an agnostic.
    Let me get this straight - amongst other stuff, you read Leviticus and said to yourself "OK, this is something I want to be part of"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    I must have missed the part in the opening post where the OP mentioned tying his friend down and prying her eyelids open to read a book of his choosing.
    Dades wrote: »
    You think it's a bad thing for a creationist who has agreed to read a book to do so?

    From the OP:
    Ah come on. Do you honestly believe the friend went to the OP asking for a book that's counter to her beliefs? Or is it more likely that they had a discussion about their beliefs and the OP wants the friend to read a book in the hopes it will shatter her beliefs?

    Just let her be and live your own life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    philologos wrote: »
    OP: Are you open to listening to what she has to say. What if she's right? It could be that you're not helping her?
    She's not right. It's fantasy and mythology. Stories told to comfort people thousands of years ago based on fear and no understanding.
    philologos wrote: »
    Sonics2k: I've read it through. When I did I stopped being an agnostic. The idea that atheists are the only rational people in society is laughable. Have you read it right through? If yes I'd be interested in getting into the details of it. If no why are you making this claim?

    Yes I have, in fact I've told you this before.

    The Bible describes two very different acting Gods, an impossible aspect of an infallible being that Christians describe him as. He is described as perfect, yet seemingly makes mistakes and even changes his mind.

    The Old Testament is a barbaric, brutal, misogynistic book that shows Gods pleasure of killing the innocent and weak, just because they are of different tribes.
    Any parts you don't like are simply claimed as 'non-literal' (such as Psalms and the baby killing)
    A rather common aspect of the various religious texts at the time.

    The New Testament attempts to save face, changing the system of God (again, logically impossible) and ushering the excuse of "Jesus came to fulfil it"
    Texts are twisted to suit the view of the person reading it, one chapter can be literal, but others are not.

    Oh, and for the whole "Jesus loves us" nonsense, have you actually read what happens in Revelations? It seems that even the poor gits who've never even heard of Jesus will be tortured, go to hell and various other things.

    So yes. It's a load of crap honestly. A book used to inspire fear, ignorance, prejudice and turn rather intelligent people into blibbering fools who may as well worship the Easter Bunny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    robindch wrote: »
    Let me get this straight - amongst other stuff, you read Leviticus and said to yourself "OK, this is something I want to be part of"?

    Ah but sure, they throw out the "Jesus brought a new age" nonsense when that rational argument comes up. They only use Leviticus for the gheys and their abominous ways!

    Just ignore the stuff about mould, what food to eat and beards. Sure that's all non-literal and irrelevant now :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    If I had such a discussion with a friend, and they suggested that, further to the conversation, I read X, Y or Z, I'd at least give the book a once over.

    And if I suggested the same to them, I'm sure they would give it a look, too.

    If they didn't, what harm.

    Friends do recommend books to each other from time to time.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    i don't see why people are jumping on op because he wants to recommend a book
    i also don't see why we are going to "but what if she's right"
    well if she is right then it'll make for an interesting discussion when OP recommends a book reflecting his outlook and she is able to counter it etc

    implying that people should be left alone in their little bubbles and never read anything different is a bit insulting to all concerned


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