The river Avon.

asdasd · 23-06-2009 12:07pm #1

Of which there is more than one.

My etymology guess:

From the Irish/Gaelic Abha ( dative Abhainn). Or the Welsh equivalent.

Is my guess.

There is a discrepancy with the spelling and pronunciation here. Normally a bh in Irish is a V sound. Like Siobhain. We now pronounce Abhainn with a W type sound : Abhainn is like Awan, Abha is like Awa, but it seems that it used be be pronouced with a V type sound, in some dialects, when written down.

AFAIK the Welsh is Afon.

I must learn Welsh, it doesnt seem all that like Irish, but there are quirks.

Hagar · 23-06-2009 12:16pm

I think you are on the money with Abhainn, you just have to factor in local accents and the transition then to phonetically derived spelling as writing became more widespread. Et voila Avon.

Welsh (Cymraeg) and Irish (Gaeilge) Gaelic are from a different branches of the Celtic/Gaelic language group.

Wiki has some info you may find useful.

Nemesis · 23-06-2009 1:06pm

I've seen Avoca translated in Abhainn mor.

The Avonmore (flows through Avondale) and Avonbeg rivers meet to form the Avoca river.

loads of Avons

asdasd · 23-06-2009 2:56pm

Yeah, I was wondering about Avoca. I knew about avonmore, and avonbeg, and guessed the etymology of Avoca came also from Old Irish/Celtic for river.

But where the ca came from is lost in history, I think. It cant be just translated back as Abhainn More, because that is Avonmore the other way.

Anybody know? Is it where the rivers meet, does it signify confluence?

Nemesis · 23-06-2009 3:47pm

Where the 'CA' might have came from.

Ptolemy's Eblana did not stand on a river. In the Geographia, Eblana occurs between the mouths of two rivers: the Buvinda (i.e. the River Boyne) and the Oboka. Because early antiquaries believed that Eblana was Dublin, they identified the Oboka with the river which enters the sea at Arklow in County Wicklow, which they consequently dubbed the Ovoca (now the River Avoca). In fact, Ptolemy's Oboka seems to be the River Liffey, and his Modonnos probably represents the Avoca. Eblana, thus, is located somewhere between the mouths of the Boyne and the Liffey.

Avoca village itself was known as Ovoca then Newbridge then Avoca.

The translation of Abhainn mor was on road signs.

asdasd · 23-06-2009 3:52pm

Thanks.

But the Latin transliteration of Oboka is probable from Abhainn - Oca , or something similar back in the day. Or Ptolomey got the name wrong.

Hagar · 23-06-2009 6:53pm

Given the bridge reference Droichead Nua it's a possibility that there was a ford there at some stage. Typically villages grew at crossing places.

I'm thinking along the lines Áth meaning ford and one of the following

bó nf. g. boine; d. boin; v. bhó; pl. bà; g.pl. bó, bhó, cow
boc nm. g.v. buic; pl. buic, buck, he-goat, roe-buck
bòcan nm. g.v. -ain; pl. -ain, hobgoblin

Columba Rad · 24-06-2009 9:21am

In Tallaght, there are two areas just off the N81 by pass called Avonmore & Avonbeg, these are right beside the Dodder river, see attachment.

franc 91 · 10-05-2012 10:35pm

It's written afon in Welsh but the 'f' is pronounced as a 'v' - if you want the 'f' sound in Welsh you have to put in a double 'ff' as in ffenestr. I also think that the 'bh' in Gaeilge/Gàidhlig probably indicates that originally it was a 'b' but was later lenited.
BTW The River Wye means the River Water (apparently the Norman or Saxon invaders asked a Welshman the name of the river and he answered 'water' - well it's good story anyway)

slowburner · 13-05-2012 10:06am

As far as I know, the village was given the name of Avoca after Ptolemy's map by a C.17th or 18th (?) writer to romanticise the rather commonplace name of Newbridge.

There is an interesting study available online here which evaluates the accuracy of Ptolomy's map, and relates the various locations to present day co-ordinates. (table here)
This author argues that the 'Oboca' is the Liffey, and that 'Eblana' is Loughshinny. Some folks here will know that Loughshinny also happens to be the harbour bounded on one side by the (possible) Roman fort of Drumanagh.
I don't agree that the Oboca is the Liffey.
I firmly believe that the Avoca river was well known to the Romans.
Palladius' first church in Ireland was in Avoca.
They were only 50 miles away by sea and I think they were highly unlikely to be ignorant of the auriferous and cupiferous mineral riches here, and a ready made portal for their transport.
I think it is very likely indeed, that the Avoca was of much more significance to the Romans, than the Liffey.

Another curiosity is that the two rivers which join to become the Avoca, are both 'Avon' rather than 'Owen'. There are many Owenmores, Owenduffs, Owenwees etc. but I can't think of any others which retain the 'v' sound.
Could the retention of the 'v' be a hint of Roman influence?

tac foley · 19-05-2012 12:48pm

franc 91 wrote: »

It's written afon in Welsh but the 'f' is pronounced as a 'v' - if you want the 'f' sound in Welsh you have to put in a double 'ff' as in ffenestr. I also think that the 'bh' in Gaeilge/Gàidhlig probably indicates that originally it was a 'b' but was later lenited.
BTW The River Wye means the River Water (apparently the Norman or Saxon invaders asked a Welshman the name of the river and he answered 'water' - well it's good story anyway)

Mae'r gair Cymraeg am 'water' yn dwr. Oeddyn yn meddwl y gallech fod ym eu gwybod.

The modern name for the River Wye in Welsh is Afon Gwy, possibly derived from the Medieval Welsh 'Gwybiol' or 'Gwyr' (crooked wandering hills). The Roman name, Vaga, is derived from the Latin verb 'to roam'. Both are sensible names to give this hauntingly picturesque little river.

tac

tac foley · 19-05-2012 12:56pm

franc 91 wrote: »

It's written afon in Welsh but the 'f' is pronounced as a 'v' - if you want the 'f' sound in Welsh you have to put in a double 'ff' as in ffenestr.

BTW, 'ffenestr',derived directly from the Latin word for window - and 'llyfr' - book, are just two of the many Latin words in Welsh. Some of the others are - 'pont' (in Latin 'pons', a bridge), 'bresych' ('brassica', a cabbage), 'eglwys' ('ecclesia', a church), 'newydd' (nova, new) and literally hundreds more. It is said that even the Welsh counting words have some connection to Latin, although this is hotly debated - itcannot be denied that with a bit of consonantal shift there is a LOT of similarity - particularly in the P and Q, S and Chw- shift.

Welsh Latin

0 Dim No equivalent
1 Un Unus
2 Dau Duo
3 Tri Tres
4 Pedwar Quattuor
5 Pump Quinque
6 Chwech Sex
7 Saith Septem
8 Wyth Octo
9 Naw Novem
0 Deg Decem

100 Cant Centus

tac

Janey_Mac · 24-05-2012 1:39pm

tac foley wrote: »

BTW, 'ffenestr',derived directly from the Latin word for window - and 'llyfr' - book, are just two of the many Latin words in Welsh. Some of the others are - 'pont' (in Latin 'pons', a bridge), 'bresych' ('brassica', a cabbage), 'eglwys' ('ecclesia', a church), 'newydd' (nova, new) and literally hundreds more. It is said that even the Welsh counting words have some connection to Latin, although this is hotly debated - itcannot be denied that with a bit of consonantal shift there is a LOT of similarity - particularly in the P and Q, S and Chw- shift.

Welsh Latin

0 Dim No equivalent
1 Un Unus
2 Dau Duo
3 Tri Tres
4 Pedwar Quattuor
5 Pump Quinque
6 Chwech Sex
7 Saith Septem
8 Wyth Octo
9 Naw Novem
0 Deg Decem

100 Cant Centus

tac

That's not an idea I'd heard before. Is the theory that the number-words were borrowed from Latin, thereby replacing the pre-existing number words?

Has there been analysis done on whether the similarities are more than would be expected for two related Indo-European languages anyway? Number words are notably change-resistant and retain degrees of recognisable similarity in, for example, Welsh, Croatian, English and Latin, and no one suggests English and Croatian borrowed them from Latin, it's just that all the languages come from a common ancestor.

FYI, 1-7 in Croatian, no doubt misspelled terribly, because I learned them orally:
1 yeden
2 dva
3 tre
4 chetri
5 ped
6 shest
7 sedam

franc 91 · 24-05-2012 2:08pm

I think there is a Roman influence in the way these numbers are expressed in Welsh -
Deg X
Un ar ddeg XI
Deuddeg XII
Tri ar ddeg XIII
Pedwar ar ddeg XIIII
Pymtheg XV
Un ar bymtheg XVI
Dau ar bymtheg XVII
Deunaw 2 x 9
Pedwar ar bymtheg XVIIII
Ugain XX

spacetweek · 05-02-2013 7:42pm

tac foley wrote: »

Welsh Latin

Very interesting. The numbers in Irish are even more like Latin than the Welsh ones though.

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 1:03am

All indo European numbers are very similar in all languages. The chance of Latin influencing Welsh numbers is 0.

tac foley · 25-07-2013 9:06am

ezra_pound wrote: »

All indo European numbers are very similar in all languages. The chance of Latin influencing Welsh numbers is 0.

I disagree.

Welsh 1 -10 Latin 1 - 10

Un Unus
Dau Duo
Tri Tres
Pedwar Quattuor
Pump Quinque
Chwe Sex
Saith Septem
Wyth* Octo
Naw Novem
Deg Decem

With the exception of Welsh eight, the connections and linguistic P/Q modifications are plainly obvious even to a well-known halfwit like me.

tac

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 11:33am

tac foley wrote: »

I disagree.

Welsh 1 -10 Latin 1 - 10

Un Unus
Dau Duo
Tri Tres
Pedwar Quattuor
Pump Quinque
Chwe Sex
Saith Septem
Wyth* Octo
Naw Novem
Deg Decem

With the exception of Welsh eight, the connections and linguistic P/Q modifications are plainly obvious even to a well-known halfwit like me.

tac

Rubbish. The p/q rule in no way points to a Latin influence on numbers.

No more than the qu/q - kw/k rule points to a Latin origin for numbers in Irish.

hullaballoo · 25-07-2013 11:38am

ezra_pound wrote: »

All indo European numbers are very similar in all languages. The chance of Latin influencing Welsh numbers is 0.

Yeah, that's demonstrably untrue. The linguistic parallels across IE numbering are clear and although for some reason, the number 8 branched out from PIE into two apparently dissimilar sounds, their roots are not so unfamiliar (*oḱtō, *oḱtou or *h₃eḱtō, *h₃eḱtou). This is a useful table for comparison.

Wyth is very close to many proto-Germanic languages, while the German for 8 is acht. Also, French uses huit which is closer to the proto-Germanic, despite being a Romance language.

Anyway, in relation to the difference between Avonbeg and Owenbeg, it's dialectic: when the Royal Engineers carried out a full ordnance survey of Ireland in the 1830s, the Irish names were generally given Anglicisations of the native Irish words. Abhainn will have been pronounced differently from East-West and North-South, hence the discrepancies.

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 12:53pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yeah, that's demonstrably untrue. The linguistic parallels across IE numbering are clear and although for some reason, the number 8 branched out from PIE into two apparently dissimilar sounds, their roots are not so unfamiliar (*oḱtō, *oḱtou or *h₃eḱtō, *h₃eḱtou). This is a useful table for comparison.

Wyth is very close to many proto-Germanic languages, while the German for 8 is acht. Also, French uses huit which is closer to the proto-Germanic, despite being a Romance language.

Anyway, in relation to the difference between Avonbeg and Owenbeg, it's dialectic: when the Royal Engineers carried out a full ordnance survey of Ireland in the 1830s, the Irish names were generally given Anglicisations of the native Irish words. Abhainn will have been pronounced differently from East-West and North-South, hence the discrepancies.

I'm not sure of you're right about the French huit being influenced by Germanic. Its an interesting one though and I might have a go at explaining it properly later on.

But as a rough start...
Huit from Latin Octo

A Latin vowel followed by ct or x tends to be softened and lose the ct sound.

So NOx noctis becomes nuit.

Lac(t) lactis become lait.

Following the same logic Octo should become something like huit or huito!

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 1:08pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

I'm not sure of you're right about the French huit being influenced by Germanic. Its an interesting one though and I might have a go at explaining it properly later on.

But as a rough start...
Huit from Latin Octo

A Latin vowel followed by ct or x tends to be softened and lose the ct sound.

So NOx noctis becomes nuit.

Lac(t) lactis become lait.

Following the same logic Octo should become something like huit or huito!

I think that the proper way of expressing how the vowel is'softened' is that an e grade ablaut is applied. I.e. an e sound is applied to the vowel. Hope this'd makes sense!

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 1:22pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yeah, that's demonstrably untrue. The linguistic parallels across IE numbering are clear and although for some reason, the number 8 branched out from PIE into two apparently dissimilar sounds, their roots are not so unfamiliar (*oḱtō, *oḱtou or *h₃eḱtō, *h₃eḱtou). This is a useful table for comparison.

Wyth is very close to many proto-Germanic languages, while the German for 8 is acht. Also, French uses huit which is closer to the proto-Germanic, despite being a Romance language.

Anyway, in relation to the difference between Avonbeg and Owenbeg, it's dialectic: when the Royal Engineers carried out a full ordnance survey of Ireland in the 1830s, the Irish names were generally given Anglicisations of the native Irish words. Abhainn will have been pronounced differently from East-West and North-South, hence the discrepancies.

Great post by the way!

Sorry for continually arguing with it but I think that reducing the Avon Owen issue to only a dialect is wrong. I think that there could be significance in the timing of the place name coming into English and the pronunciation at that point in time. Remember Irish placenames were Anglicised before 1830s!

tac foley · 25-07-2013 3:09pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Rubbish.

I disagree with you again. However, I'm prepared to be educated, and so is my wife, who is a native Welsh-speaker from North Wales.

So, how do you explain the - to me -obvious similarities in the numbers I have posted?

Thanks in advance for the elucidation.

Nid wyf yn cytuno â chi. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n barod i chi ei ddysgu i mi pam fy mod yn anghywir ac rydych yn gywir. Mae fy ngwraig, siaradwr Cymraeg brodorol o Ogledd Cymru, hefyd yn ddiddordeb mawr mewn dysgu eich esboniad.

Sut ydych CHI'N ei esbonio tebygrwydd amlwg y rhifau Cymraeg a Lladin?

Diolch i chi ymlaen llaw.

tac

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 3:56pm

tac foley wrote: »

I disagree with you again. However, I'm prepared to be educated, and so is my wife, who is a native Welsh-speaker from North Wales.

So, how do you explain the - to me -obvious similarities in the numbers I have posted?

Thanks in advance for the elucidation.

Nid wyf yn cytuno â chi. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n barod i chi ei ddysgu i mi pam fy mod yn anghywir ac rydych yn gywir. Mae fy ngwraig, siaradwr Cymraeg brodorol o Ogledd Cymru, hefyd yn ddiddordeb mawr mewn dysgu eich esboniad.

Sut ydych CHI'N ei esbonio tebygrwydd amlwg y rhifau Cymraeg a Lladin?

Diolch i chi ymlaen llaw.

tac

Look up any of the numerals in an etymological dictionary.

Example

pedwar

Contents

1 Welsh
1.1 Etymology
1.2 Cardinal number
1.2.1 Usage notes
Welsh[edit]

Etymology[edit]

From Proto-Celtic *kʷetwares, from Proto-Indo-European *kʷetwóres.

Cardinal number[edit]

pedwar m (feminine form pedair)

(cardinal) four
Usage notes[edit]

Pedwar is used only before grammatically masculine nouns.

So in this example pedwar dies not come from latin but from the proto celtic root. You can check the rest if you want and disprove my assertation.

So Welsh and the British languages turn the kw sound to a p. Latin keeps the kw sound and Irish and the Gaelic languages change to a k sound.

This is as one would expect, with or without the Roman invasion of Britain.

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 4:22pm

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/pedwar
I used Wiktionary by the way.

tac foley · 25-07-2013 6:35pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/pedwar
I used Wiktionary by the way.

So the 'apparent' similarity of the numbers is a complete coincidence - is that what you are claiming? Given that Welsh has a great number of words derived from Latin still in common use.

Of course, it wasn't actually CALLED Welsh until long after the Romans had gone back home. It was the Brythonic language spoken, in one form or another, by ALL the inhabitants of the island of Britannia, except perhaps the far-northerners [called Picts by the Romans] so the premise that the national language had been influenced by four hundred years of occupancy should not be dismissed so out of hand by you as 'rubbish'.

That is hardly an intellectual response.

Notwithstanding your use of a not totally trustworthy knowledge base, I'm going to call up a few other Welsh speakers - two of whom teach it - and ask for their words on the subject.

Noswaith da.

tac

ezra_pound · 25-07-2013 7:44pm

tac foley wrote: »

So the 'apparent' similarity of the numbers is a complete coincidence - is that what you are claiming? Given that Welsh has a great number of words derived from Latin still in common use.

NO that is the complete opposite of what I said. It is not in any way coincidence

It is however completely free from any italic or latin influence.

tac foley wrote: »

Of course, it wasn't actually CALLED Welsh until long after the Romans had gone back home. It was the Brythonic language spoken, in one form or another, by ALL the inhabitants of the island of Britannia, except perhaps the far-northerners [called Picts by the Romans]

Yeah, I know.

tac foley wrote: »

so the premise that the national language had been influenced by four hundred years of occupancy should not be dismissed so out of hand by you as 'rubbish'.

That's not what I said.

I just said that the claim that Latin influenced the welsh for numbers is... well rubbish. Of course Welsh has been influenced by latin. In the same way that Irish has been influenced by norse, french and english.

tac foley wrote: »

Notwithstanding your use of a not totally trustworthy knowledge base,

I only used wiktionary to show an etymological dictionary entry for "pedwar".
You're free to look up any of the numerals in any etymological dictionary yourself. They won't give a latin origin of any of the words.

Your argument could be used equally in support of Irish numbers coming from latin.

tac foley · 26-07-2013 12:08pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

I just said that the claim that Latin influenced the welsh for numbers is... well rubbish. Of course Welsh has been influenced by latin. In the same way that Irish has been influenced by norse, french and english.

Forgive me for being a little dense here, but in the first half of this sentence, you write that it is rubbish.

...and in the second half of the sentence you write, 'of course it has been influenced by latin.'

You can't have it both ways.

Since you appear to be an expert on Celtic language etymolgy, and I, plainly, am not, perhaps you like to tell us what the Pre-Roman invasion Brythonic language numbers were.

Just one to ten will do, so that we get an idea.

Thank you.

tac

tac foley · 26-07-2013 12:11pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Your argument could be used equally in support of Irish numbers coming from latin.

The Romans did not occupy the island of Ireland for almost four hundred years.

Any Roman influence there was by 'shoulder rubbing' contact of a highly ephemeral nature, perhaps in trade, but certainly not by forcing the population to do all business, commerce, administration and organisation in Latin, as happened on mainline Great Britain.

tac

tac foley · 26-07-2013 12:18pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

NO that is the complete opposite of what I said. It is not in any way coincidence It is however completely free from any italic or latin influence.

I've just been thinking - if it's not a coincidence that the numbers bear a startling similarity, then what is it? What word would YOU apply to the similarities/likeness/call-them-what-you-wills?

What are the chances of two such diverse languages having evolved with such a clear difference in structure and syntax, but with glaringly similarities in a basic thing like numbers - numbers that would have been used as the basis for any trading that may or may not have taken place between the Romans and the Irish

Do you have a different definition of 'coincidence' than my dictionary?

tac

hullaballoo · 26-07-2013 4:07pm

Having thought about this a bit more (and I apologise for not replying sooner), I can see where ezra_pound is coming from.

There are similarities across most western European languages with regard to numbers. That is beyond doubt. However, ezra's point is that the numbers evolved at some point in pre-Roman European languages as a common denominator. So, using my above post, the proto-Indo-European languages had developed a linguistic system for counting.

That system evolved divergently across races, while the numbers were changed to fit with other linguistic characteristics of whatever language was being spoken. So, although the numbers share a common root, it is not necessarily by virtue of the Roman conquests.

I think that's ezra's point, I hope I'm getting that right.

He also says that Latin undoubtedly impacted on other European languages, but not in relation to numbers. That's a valid point too: the impact of invaders on native language is universal and Irish is a very good example of this. The Vikings gave the Irish language the words for ship (long/lang[scip]), boat (bád/båd), button (cnaipe/knāp), shoe (bróg/brók) and a lot of other trade- and seafaring words.

On the other hand, the impact of Latin in Ireland is generally related to ecclesiastics because Ireland had little exposure to Latin from Roman invasion, whereas when we were being converted to Christianity, Latin was introduced more emphatically. You can also see the impact of other languages on Irish, where words are introduced/borrowed because Irish did not have a pre-existing equivalent.

I suppose it is unlikely that Gaels were unable to count before the Romans taught us the numbers!

It's an open question in my mind, though. It is possible that the Latin system was preferred and adopted before morphing into aon, dó, trí. My view is that the similarities are too close to Latin and not close enough to PIE numbering for ezra's theory to be correct.

Anyway, there's some more rambling. Soz.

The river Avon.

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