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Discussion on driving standards in Ireland
Comments
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meanmachine3 wrote: »have a speeding points system example as follows.
doing 51-60 in a 50 kph zone 2 points €80 fine
doing 61-70 in a 50 kph zone 3 points €120 fine and so on etc.
and this would be for all the limits. the more you speed the more you pay and suffer with penalty points where it gets to the stage where lets say your caught doing 120kph in a 50 zone gets you an automatic disqualification.
You don't think you'd get put off the road if you did 120kph in a 50 zone ?0 -
meanmachine3 wrote: »firstly we have a few major problems here.
all drivers with a license outside this jurisdiction are untouchable when it comes to the road traffic act.
we all hear about the fatalities in 2007 and how they are one of the lowest on records but what we're not hearing about is the thousands of injuries caused by accidents. we've all seen the ads on T.V. about the injuries caused.
what we need is drastic changes in our laws which wouldn't take long to pass.
examples are when you reach 12 points you must automatically hand in your license.
anyone caught breaking the laws in this jurisdiction with a foreign license have their vehicles impounded straight away with severe fines to get it back.i believe this happens in some other countries where a foreign driver is caught breaking their laws.
(how they get to where there going is their problem.) the laws are there for everyone using irish roads.
have a speeding points system example as follows.
doing 51-60 in a 50 kph zone 2 points €80 fine
doing 61-70 in a 50 kph zone 3 points €120 fine and so on etc.
and this would be for all the limits. the more you speed the more you pay and suffer with penalty points where it gets to the stage where lets say your caught doing 120kph in a 50 zone gets you an automatic disqualification.
In principle, I agree with the comments about how you deal with drivers who are either not ordinarily resident in this country or have licences issued by another licensing authority.
However, speeding is not the only problem, it is all the little reckless things that are harder to trap, such as overtaking on a blind bend - speed makes it worse but it isn't the root cause of an accident there - breaking red lights which is a very popular past time in Dublin, particularly with cars with Irish registrations.
The problem - as I see it - is that we concentrate too much on speeding as a cause of problems when in real terms I think it's a symptom of other problems such as arrogant driving with no due attention to other conditions.0 -
AugustusMaximus wrote: »You don't think you'd get put off the road if you did 120kph in a 50 zone ?
to be honest no not really. yes i might get cuaght if i did that but if it went to ourt as everyone knows all you need is a good solicitor. i've read stories of courts cases in papers where driver have been caught doing 200 plus in a 120 and all they got was a fine.
calina i agree wholeheartly with you but as a guard recently said to me what do you want a guard at every junction. we also have the problem of guards ignoring offenders. classic example is uniforms in an unmarked car did nothing when someone broke a red light recently as they were probably looking/searching for something else.again the same guard said to me while they may see an offence being committed it may be only minor compared to what they are actually on patrol for when i raised this with him0 -
Indeed. I only learned recently enough that public services get a budget for the year and that's that. I don't know why I didn't know that before but it's scary. Certain services such as health and security should have ballpark figures that they aim for, but should never be restricted from buying necessary equipment or staff just because their budget doesn't include it this month. If they overrun, you rebudget for next year, you don't prevent them from overrunning.But that would involve setting up and staffing correctly a decent traffic corps which of course is politically difficult because we don't apparently want to pay for any more staff in the public service.0 -
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seamus wrote:Indeed. I only learned recently enough that public services get a budget for the year and that's that. I don't know why I didn't know that before but it's scary. Certain services such as health and security should have ballpark figures that they aim for, but should never be restricted from buying necessary equipment or staff just because their budget doesn't include it this month. If they overrun, you rebudget for next year, you don't prevent them from overrunning.
Seamus- its not only that- if a public service agency (be it a State Body, government department etc) does not use their annual allocation- be it either through genuine savings, or because they cannot justify expenditure in a particular year (particularly on capital projects)- their "saving" is deducted from the amount of money they get the following year- as obviously they didn't need it the previous year. So you get end of year spending- for no purpose other than to spend a budget, so you don't get penalised the following year.
Its all so incredibly disfunctional- its amazing that anything gets done.0 -
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This has been split off from another thread regarding a fatal accident.
1) other thread will be deleted
2) OP of other thread has been banned.
3) I feel there is some point in discussing driving standards in Ireland which is why I have split off the discussion.
given the atmosphere in the thread this discussion originated in, I will be watching this closely and as an advance warning, any post which I consider to be racist or xenophobic will earn the poster an automatic three month ban from Commuting and Transport. Other charter breaking posts will earn sanctions ranging from infractions to bans.
Is there a particular problem with discussing the driving habits of Foreign Nationals on Irish roads? I hope not.
I assume the original post concerned the accident on the N7 yesterday. I wholeheartedly agree that Irish driving standards (Irish drivers) are abysmal. The enforcement of many basic, but important, road traffic laws are virtually non-existant. The concentration of resources on speeding is nothing more than shooting ducks in a barrel. The same applies to drink driving. The countrys road network, law enforcement and drivers are way out of step with promoting safety. However when all this is considered and put against the large influx of foreign nationals who may or may not have similar driving habits, then I believe its worthy of discussion and evaluation.
I am not racist or xenophobic. These words tend to be thrown around with careless abandon anyway. But from experience (and its vast experience) I find many foreign national drivers (eastern European) to be extremely dangerous on single lane national routes. The Irish are dangerous too, but Ive witnessed "suicidal" behaviour from EE registered cars and reported them to local garda stations like I'd report Irish reg'd cars. Im not blind or quick to pick on foreign nationals. I call it as I see it. Even where I live, Ive had to report Irish reg'd cars driven by polish, travelling at rediculous speeds in a residential area frequented by small children. Ive never seen "Irish" drivers doing the same in the area. (yet)
Until we get specific figures, then some people will continue insulting some foreign nationals while others throw the words racist and xenophobic all around the place without any official stats to back it up. But the more reasoned amongst us must not be afraid to speak about road traffic accidents involving foreign nationals. Like the Irish, they aren't perfect. We make TV and radio programmes about "boy racers" and "Irish driving habits". Nobody bats an eyelid or raises cain. But as soon as a foreign national is mentioned many will rise up in protest. If we want to focus on Irish racism, then how much of it is created in the minds of those who's minds are actually closed to open discussion?0 -
Yesterday on the N63 in the Lackagh / Turloughmore area, i saw a small red car with a piece of Wood sticking out across both the passenger and drivers windows, sticking out approx 6 feet each side,incredible.It weaved in and out avoiding on coming cars and 2 people walking along the road. then it turned up a narrow side road.
The driver was Irish0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »Is there a particular problem with discussing the driving habits of Foreign Nationals on Irish roads? I hope not.
I assume the original post concerned the accident on the N7 yesterday. I wholeheartedly agree that Irish driving standards (Irish drivers) are abysmal. The enforcement of many basic, but important, road traffic laws are virtually non-existant. The concentration of resources on speeding is nothing more than shooting ducks in a barrel. The same applies to drink driving. The countrys road network, law enforcement and drivers are way out of step with promoting safety. However when all this is considered and put against the large influx of foreign nationals who may or may not have similar driving habits, then I believe its worthy of discussion and evaluation.
I am not racist or xenophobic. These words tend to be thrown around with careless abandon anyway. But from experience (and its vast experience) I find many foreign national drivers (eastern European) to be extremely dangerous on single lane national routes. The Irish are dangerous too, but Ive witnessed "suicidal" behaviour from EE registered cars and reported them to local garda stations like I'd report Irish reg'd cars. Im not blind or quick to pick on foreign nationals. I call it as I see it. Even where I live, Ive had to report Irish reg'd cars driven by polish, travelling at rediculous speeds in a residential area frequented by small children. Ive never seen "Irish" drivers doing the same in the area. (yet)
Until we get specific figures, then some people will continue insulting some foreign nationals while others throw the words racist and xenophobic all around the place without any official stats to back it up. But the more reasoned amongst us must not be afraid to speak about road traffic accidents involving foreign nationals. Like the Irish, they aren't perfect. We make TV and radio programmes about "boy racers" and "Irish driving habits". Nobody bats an eyelid or raises cain. But as soon as a foreign national is mentioned many will rise up in protest. If we want to focus on Irish racism, then how much of it is created in the minds of those who's minds are actually closed to open discussion?
There is not, in principle, a problem with discussion the driving quality of non-nationals in this country. No one is suggesting that all foreigners who come in here are perfect drivers, but there is an expected standard of discourse here that involves not using abusive language towards other human beings.
In any case, what is relevant is the lack of figures and indeed in this country, lack of follow up information on road traffic accidents in this country. This is a valid comment.0 -
its a mix of everything, bad drivers (irish and other nationalities) and bad roads!!0
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meanmachine3 wrote: »to be honest no not really. yes i might get cuaght if i did that but if it went to ourt as everyone knows all you need is a good solicitor. i've read stories of courts cases in papers where driver have been caught doing 200 plus in a 120 and all they got was a fine.
Doing 200 on a clear motorway is harmless compared to hooring through a town at 120 - we shouldn't be surprised that there are circumstances in which it goes punished with only a fine and points. The question asked was whether you could avoid a ban if caught doing 120 in a 50 zone - I'd be surprised if you could.0 -
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Doing 200 on a clear motorway is harmless compared to hooring through a town at 120 -
And there ladies and gentlemen is the Irish problem in a nutshell the auld sure no one got hurt did they. Not much point in stating the obvious to the above poster, but lets try shall we. Unfortunately in my job I see the results of road accidents all too often and yes road deaths are coming down. But we sometimes forget the real issue which is accident numbers. Cars are inherently safer these days and therefore more people are surviving then would have even ten years ago and so we too often play the 'less road deaths' card without thinking. But I digress (don't get me started on how.....) , so let's look at the above statement.
The same idiot doing 200 on a motorway and he is an idiot, will also be the same murderous idiot doing 120 in a 50 zone. Thats why we Irish are just plain stupid when it comes to speeding, I've posted before about why we have limits and how when we ignore them or utter the mantra sure where's the harm it was a clear road and I'm a good driver that we are all guilty of allowing this behaviour to continue.
On motorways we have a limit (not a target) of 120 because through experience and research this is the most suitable speed considered safe to travel at please no replies about how doing ..... blah blah is safe, please breaking any!! speed limit is inexcusable. Hopefully our idiot of a friend will be on a clear motorway when he blows a tyre, which when travelling at those speeds the chances of increase dramatically. Or he hits something anything, answers his phone etc,etc.....
When we excuse the idiot as being harmless doing such a speed because it is not as bad as doing 120 in town, we might as well excuse the guy doing 90/100 or is that just too fast what about 70/80 yeah thats not's too bad is it. You are restricted to 50 in urban areas because children play in urban areas and yet everyday people speed through urban areas at 70/80 because "I've good brakes, I'm a great driver or what go 50, sure I'd walk faster".
The thing is as I write this I know sadly that one or more readers are thinking 50 is too slow in the sameway that many of our limits are also too slow.
Anyway rant over, I just hope the poster doesn't try to condone his statement actually no on second thoughts I would love to see how they could because saying doing 200 is not as bad as doing 120 is a bit like saying doing 120 in town is not as bad as doing 150, both are equally as idiotic statements.0 -
Try to keep your emotions in check and you might be capable of rational discussion. I stand by my statement. I also think that you'll have to acknowledge that only a small subset of those that will do 200 on a motorway also do 120 in a built-up area. Your powers of observation alone will tell you that. As for signs of idiocy...
You may have gained the impression that I'm somebody that is in the habit of doing 200 on Irish motorways. I'm not. It's far too dangerous - in particular, the danger of losing my licence is one I'm not so keen on.
But I do have wide experience of speeds in excess of 200 on German Autobahnen. There, the most usual speeds would be between 160 and 180, but up to 220 isn't uncommon. Idiocy it aint. It's legal and the roads function well at those speeds.
Do 120 in a German town and they may very well lock you up. They'll certainly lift your licence and require a shrink's report before deciding whether you should have it back again. The shrink is a clue that the Germans do see idiocy in this situation.
You cheapen the value of all speed limits if you try to insist that any one infraction is just as dangerous as another. It suggests a lacking sense of perspective.
[But kids - seriously: Speeds of above 120km/h on a motorway are idiotic, so don't do it. Except in France or Austria, where 130 is OK. But in the UK, stick to 112km/h, because any more would be reckless. Do what you like in Germany, though. Idiocy is a community standard, you see.]0 -
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perhaps you have evidence to support your claim?
Stand on a bridge over any German Autobahn for an hour or so and see how many nasty accidents or near misses occur.
Now observe the consequences of doing 120 in a built-up area. (It may be harder to obtain data points on this, but I'm amazed that you find it difficult to grasp the difference).0 -
In the last couple of decades, our road deaths have been in decline - the 1960's/1970's saw far greater fatalities, and that was with far less cars in Ireland. Now, for those of you who are safety conscious, don't shoot me just yet...
...the above trend is no thanks to drivers - if fact, the driving standards in this country have got steadily worse. The positive trend is in fact down to improved roads, better car design, and some (but not nearly enough) enforcement.
I don't drive myself, but I can see motorists completely ignoring road conditions, like continuing to drive at speed in fog (for goodness sake!), and one can see what happened in the M7/M9 pile-up - all this carnage because a few impulsive speeders! Another case is motorists driving at speed on small rural roads as if they were highways. As for motorists driving at other cars because they happen to be in the way, what kind of nut cases are they - When I think of the outright danger these people causing, I wonder should there be psychological assessments (in conjunction with the test) in order to lessen these type of drivers on our roads???
In one instance, I was in a car merging from the M50 to the M1 northbound when the traffic was quite heavy. Now, as some of you know, the inner merge lane (the outer lane is reserved for M50 to Airport traffic) is very short. In normal circumstances, if the merge lane is active, the motorists on the mainline should move to the over-taking lane to avoid complications. Now, in heavier traffic where this might not be practical, common sense would tell me that vehicles in both the main traffic and merge lanes should file into one line taking turns where appropriate, especially where the merge lane is short (the same thing appears to the be the case with the M4/M6 merge). Now, back to our experience, when we were merging, there was a good 100m to the car on the mainline behind us – well, he just sped up - I couldn't believe it (what a lunatic!!!). If he got his way (which he didn't), we would have been forced across the chevron into the Airport lane - this guy could have caused a very serious accident - he should be off the road for good!!!
Yes, our driving standards leave a lot to be desired!!!
Regards!0 -
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Stand on a bridge over any German Autobahn for an hour or so and see how many nasty accidents or near misses occur.
Now observe the consequences of doing 120 in a built-up area. (It may be harder to obtain data points on this, but I'm amazed that you find it difficult to grasp the difference).
Eh, i havent been to every county in ireland but im pretty sure we dont have a german autobahn anywhere in ireland. You're not comparing like with like.0 -
Eh, i havent been to every county in ireland but im pretty sure we dont have a german autobahn anywhere in ireland. You're not comparing like with like.
Am I not? Germany has motorways, we have motorways. They have towns, we have towns.
They reckon you don't always need to impose a speed limit on motorways, we... well, it seems we reckon that anything above 120 is idiocy.
Sometimes it can be very revealing to compare like with like.
BTW: it won't ever be safe to do more than 120 on our roads, as the air pressure would make your lungs explode.0 -
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Am I not? Germany has motorways, we have motorways. They have towns, we have towns.
They reckon you don't always need to impose a speed limit on motorways, we... well, it seems we reckon that anything above 120 is idiocy.
Sometimes it can be very revealing to compare like with like.
BTW: it won't ever be safe to do more than 120 on our roads, as the air pressure would make your lungs explode.
No point even continuing to discuss with you, you will never see it anyway but your way.0 -
No point even continuing to discuss with you, you will never see it anyway but your way.
Your posts on this thread have ranged in length from a single word to a peak of two whole lines.
Or did I miss the bit where you attempted to discuss anything? Or present a reasoned argument? And you're the open-minded one?0 -
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The German situation stands out as being alone among the countries of Europe. I think it will see it's day come soon, as driving standards in general are tightened up across the continent.
Besides that, here is the point: one car, driven by an experienced driver, with hundreds of thousands of miles under his belt, and an accident free record, is reasonably safe at high speeds, on an empty road, or even in the company of a number of other similarly experienced drivers. Indeed, modern high powered cars are designed for speeds of up to 250kph.
The problem is, that you are sharing the road with hundreds of other drivers, 99% of whom have not anything like such experience, and many of whom have no driving experience at all. Many indeed, have only contempt for basic driving standards, and no consideration for other motorists, nor even the most basic observation of the road situation. It is an unfortunate fact that we are dictated by the lowest common denominator, that is we all drive at the level of the least competent driver legitimately on the road. Bear in mind that learner drivers are banned from driving on motorways full of learner drivers!
Never mind 200kph. If you drive at 140 or 150kph on a typical Irish motorway, the car in the inside lane in the far distance ahead most likely has no judgement of your speed, due to inexperience, and likely will not even SEE you coming fast behind until you have already passed!
It is wonderful to cross to the UK, and share the motorways with good, experienced drivers, who for the most part, observe the road, and respect your co-operation and your need to travel long distances in reasonable time. Unfortunately an Irish motorway is a handy shortcut to the shop down the road, full of motorists who are travelling no further than the next exit or two, and who have NO concept of a motorist or working driver who wants to travel from Dublin to Cork within a reasonable four hour time frame.
If one of those inexperienced drivers decides to change lanes at the last minute, and has not even SEEN you, or even considered the possibility of faster moving traffic already in that lane, you cannot stop any make of car from 200kph, even if you threw an anchor out onto the road behind you. And the carnage from a 200kph smash is unimaginable.
Again, it is heartbreaking to the experienced and enthusiastic motorist, who learned well, observes the road, and respects other road users, but the fact is we all drive to the standard of the lowest common denominator, and that means restrictive speed limits.0 -
spot on HydeRoad....and from that perspective and from the green point of view the limits are arguably too high even now...0
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The problem is, that you are sharing the road with hundreds of other drivers, 99% of whom have not anything like such experience, and many of whom have no driving experience at all. Many indeed, have only contempt for basic driving standards, and no consideration for other motorists, nor even the most basic observation of the road situation. It is an unfortunate fact that we are dictated by the lowest common denominator, that is we all drive at the level of the least competent driver legitimately on the road. Bear in mind that learner drivers are banned from driving on motorways full of learner drivers!
I certainly won't disagree with that. I also believe that the Germans will (eventually) get a general speed limit, even though their driving standard is (mostly) high enough not to require it. But environmental considerations may force the issue.
But to return to my controversial statement - for the reasons you mention, you could never safely do 200 at high traffic levels on an Irish motorway. On an empty one you certainly could. And - let's risk the wrath of the frothing mouth brigade once more - it would be safer, and therefore less deserving of a hefty penalty, than zooming through a town at motorway speeds.0 -
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I certainly won't disagree with that. I also believe that the Germans will (eventually) get a general speed limit, even though their driving standard is (mostly) high enough not to require it. But environmental considerations may force the issue.
But to return to my controversial statement - for the reasons you mention, you could never safely do 200 at high traffic levels on an Irish motorway. On an empty one you certainly could. And - let's risk the wrath of the frothing mouth brigade once more - it would be safer, and therefore less deserving of a hefty penalty, than zooming through a town at motorway speeds.
Right so now you acknowledge that the competency of the driver is a factor in safety, good.
So if someone is doing 200 on a motorway in ireland and has an accident, should the penalties be less severe too?0 -
Many indeed, have only contempt for basic driving standards, and no consideration for other motorists, nor even the most basic observation of the road situation.
Exactly, it is not only a question of inexperience. In general Irish people drive as much or more than people in Britain, Germany etc. But if you don't give a damn, no amount of experience will make you a good driver. And the authorities in this country do nothing to give the impression that you should give a damn.0 -
Right so now you acknowledge that the competency of the driver is a factor in safety, good.
My italics. I've never felt any other way. In fact, it's a point I feel particularly strongly about, and an area generally ignored in discussions of road safety.So if someone is doing 200 on a motorway in ireland and has an accident, should the penalties be less severe too?
The penalties for any offence should reflect the severity of that offence. Driving at 200 on the motorway could be classed as reckless in many situations, imprudent or careless in others and (I claim) perfectly safe under certain conditions. (and yes, still illegal in this country, don't do it etc.). The degree of the offence can be gauged in a number of ways. Is there also tailgating, threatening behaviour or similar? Is the car under control or moving erratically? Is the road slippy or dry? How is the visibility?
An actual accident may be a further indicator of recklessness. It may, of course, indicate that a slower driver didn't look in his mirror before a lane change, but it remains the responsibility of the faster driver to be able to cope with the unexpected.
By contrast, I can't find many mitigating circumstances for 120 in a built-up 50 zone and the likely consequences are a lot more worrying than those in the motorway example.0
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