DART+ (DART Expansion)

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 1:52am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We'd better give this a bump, because this thread is about to fall off the front page of the forum.

Let's try this:

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

They are not to hot on it financially and I fear they would support opposition to it in the East Wall area on the basis of disruption and consultation.

murphaph · 07-03-2015 7:37am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

Wherever gets them the most votes, just like the rest.

The Dark Knight · 07-03-2015 8:57am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

salmocab · 07-03-2015 12:48pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

Bit OTT there with the shinners the Irish soccer team are dirt I doubt even the shinners would make that call

Schadenfreudia · 07-03-2015 3:19pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

I doubt they'll promise any of those things in their manifesto - they aren't the Labour Party.

Oasis_Dublin · 07-03-2015 3:53pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

That really sounds like a Fianna Fáil manifesto from the middle of the last decade!

Deedsie · 09-03-2015 8:10pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

The only party that have not had the option to break their election promises and I haven't heard much of what they say to be that bad?

The status quo parties have done a great job with our economy, envy of the world it is. They same parties that have overseen our pathetic infrastructure development.

Victor · 09-03-2015 8:20pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

Let's not go there.

Moderator

The Dark Knight · 11-03-2015 11:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

The only party that have not had the option to break their election promises and I haven't heard much of what they say to be that bad?

The status quo parties have done a great job with our economy, envy of the world it is. They same parties that have overseen our pathetic infrastructure development.

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Schadenfreudia · 12-03-2015 10:01am

The Dark Knight wrote: »

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Well, as this appears to be morphing into an anti-SF/left thread I might say that in the circumstances the parties that brought the State to economic catastrophe, FF/FG/Labour, and their allies in the media (which cheered both the property bubble and the Bankster bail-outs) are clearly in a state of panic.

The endless dredging of bogs for bodies having utterly failed to move SF in the polls, the "Jobstown Kidnap" by the "Left" having equally failed to dent the support for independents they are now going to roll out victims of abuse on the lines of the Maria Cahill road-show.

Frankly, it is now obvious that 50% of the population are on to the rotten Establishment-in-panic and no amount of re-cycled propaganda will work on them. How can anybody even think of voting for those traitors and criminals in FF/FG/Labour?

Let's hope that gets to 55% by the next election.

Apologies for going off-topic.

Zebra3 · 12-03-2015 10:39am

The Dark Knight wrote: »

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Don't forget about the ring wing parties who colluded with the Catholic Church in running their slave labour camps, turned a blind eye to their paedophile rings and still to this day refuse to prosecute members of those rings who facilitated child rapists and moved the rapistsaround the country so as to keep them free with a fresh set of victims.

Van.Bosch · 12-03-2015 11:21am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The endless dredging of bogs for bodies having utterly failed to move SF in the polls, the "Jobstown Kidnap" by the "Left" having equally failed to dent the support for independents they are now going to roll out victims of abuse on the lines of the Maria Cahill road-show.

Apologies for going off-topic.

Wow

Aard · 12-03-2015 11:39am

Back on topic everybody.

No more warnings. You know where the Politics forum is.

- Mod.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 3:13pm

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but is this a case of the project being shovel ready and just waiting for the cheque signature or if there was financial approval would there still be countless more legal and planning hoops to jump through?

From their site:

A Railway Order for the DART Underground was made by An Bord Pleanála on 15th December 2011. The full decision is available from An Bord Pleanála's website. A judicial review of An Bord Pleanála's decision was concluded by the High Court on 25th March 2014, at which time the Railway Order became effective.

Is that the planning permission side sorted? Irish planning laws confuse me..

Aard · 11-06-2015 3:22pm

Essentially yes, it is a funding issue.

If you want to get really "planning-y" you could also say that we are still waiting for the Minister for Transport to sign the GDA Transport Strategy.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 3:37pm

Interesting, could be a nice election sweetner.
With all the plans about the pedestrianised layout at college green I'm sure it has occured to them that they're going to have to take knock quite a few cars off the road which strenghtens the case. We might yet see a holistic approach to Dublin's problems. The cynic in me fears otherwise however...

1huge1 · 11-06-2015 6:28pm

Well according to the Frequently asked questions section of the report released yesterday showing how the aim to remove so many cars out of the city centre.

http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/FINALFINALFAQS.pdf

Does the study propose underground rail?
It is unlikely that current proposals for underground rail facilities will become operational during the
period of the Study (2015-2023)

I can't believe I went to the bother of reading through that

I am officially a nerd

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 7:55pm

So my cynicism was warranted..

This city is destined to be second rate as long as we have such a hamstrung, divided approach to fixing problems.

Grandeeod · 11-06-2015 8:13pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

So my cynicism was warranted..

This city is destined to be second rate as long as we have such a hamstrung, divided approach to fixing problems.

In terms of public transport, the country in general, not just Dublin.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 8:25pm

Unfortunately so Grandeeod...

IMO it's the way this country is set up politically, it's bottom up as opposed top down which as a result favours localism and parish pump politics rather than holistically planned approaches.

The only solution to Dublin's issues as far as I can see would be to opt for a London style system where a mayor with actual powers was held accountable for the operation of an integrated transport system. I can safely say that this won't happen in my lifetime though!

Aard · 11-06-2015 8:30pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

The only solution to Dublin's issues as far as I can see would be to opt for a London style system where a mayor with actual powers was held accountable for the operation of an integrated transport system. I can safely say that this won't happen in my lifetime though!

Tell that to Fingal County Council

Schadenfreudia · 11-06-2015 9:03pm

So, the proposal to block cars and taxis is fully funded but all the proposals to build a decent metro/light rail network have vanished into oblivion.

Why am I not surprised?

Grandeeod · 11-06-2015 11:11pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

Unfortunately so Grandeeod...

IMO it's the way this country is set up politically, it's bottom up as opposed top down which as a result favours localism and parish pump politics rather than holistically planned approaches.

The only solution to Dublin's issues as far as I can see would be to opt for a London style system where a mayor with actual powers was held accountable for the operation of an integrated transport system. I can safely say that this won't happen in my lifetime though!

Your last point is spot on.

As for the start of your post, you are also spot on. Unfortunately there is a sense of local entitlement in Ireland that's driven by our political system and then transcends itself into the minds of any "local" in any given area, thereby creating a scenario where (for example) we'll be proposing TGV style trains for rural Ireland. I have already fallen out with a mod in relation to simply pointing out this local aspect in relation to our political system. Public transport projects and in particular the more expensive rail projects, need to be addressed on a priority basis via a national policy that starts at the top and works its way down. But this doesn't happen Ireland.

Set against an anti rail transport investment attitude from the state, we are left with these "individual" proposals, creating a disjointed approach, which is years and years behind whats needed.

The Phoenix Park Tunnel thing is being spearheaded by the current FG lead Government, because they embraced it 12 years ago. Now they want it done and it will be. No harm in that, but it was needed 12 years ago! DU is the ultimate project, but no Government has the balls for it, or metro. (Think the new study for northside Dublin)

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 4:21pm

Couple that with a cumbersome planning process (eg. the Galway bypass bog louse debacle) which also allows certain legal eagles to object to something that could be up to 120 miles away and you have a recipe for less than mediocre progress with anything in this country.

Aard · 12-06-2015 4:46pm

The planning process here is arguably a lot more straightforward that in other western European countries. And that includes EIA/Natura2000 stuff.

hardy_buck · 12-06-2015 5:04pm

Aard wrote: »

The planning process here is arguably a lot more straightforward that in other western European countries. And that includes EIA/Natura2000 stuff.

Really? I know that in the UK they haven't even finished Crossrail 1 and they're trying get Crossrail 2 underway asap. Planning regulations wouldn't be my forte I will admit however.

monument · 12-06-2015 10:18pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

Really? I know that in the UK they haven't even finished Crossrail 1 and they're trying get Crossrail 2 underway asap. Planning regulations wouldn't be my forte I will admit however.

That's mainly an issue with our political system (and politician's ability to plan ahead), it's not a problem with our planning system (which approves or rejects the end results of what the politicians allow to go ahead).

Some of the issues with the planning system is also often the political system's fault for not being able to reform until crisis happen.

Grandeeod wrote: »

As for the start of your post, you are also spot on. Unfortunately there is a sense of local entitlement in Ireland that's driven by our political system and then transcends itself into the minds of any "local" in any given area, thereby creating a scenario where (for example) we'll be proposing TGV style trains for rural Ireland. I have already fallen out with a mod in relation to simply pointing out this local aspect in relation to our political system. Public transport projects and in particular the more expensive rail projects, need to be addressed on a priority basis via a national policy that starts at the top and works its way down. But this doesn't happen Ireland.

Set against an anti rail transport investment attitude from the state, we are left with these "individual" proposals, creating a disjointed approach, which is years and years behind whats needed.

hardy_buck's comment re London is a key to part of Dublin's problem -- weak local / regional government.

One of Dublin's major problems is that it should be very powerful in its own right and national government knows that and so used corruption as an excuse to crush Dublin by making it more disjointed. Since then power has been again and again been taken away from local government in Dublin and across Ireland -- power to fund it self and power to make its own decisions.

The political system has a number of problems, one the issues is that Dublin -- like the EU -- is used as an escape goat and the idea that "Dublin gets everything" is hardly ever changed. People in rural areas and even other cities often have a twisted view of Dublin in other ways too -- like "Dublin has all the best roads" when it's really the links between Dublin and the rest of the county is what they are talking about and "Dublin has great public transport", when it's way behind where it should be.

Schadenfreudia · 12-06-2015 11:55pm

Aard wrote: »

The planning process here is arguably a lot more straightforward that in other western European countries. And that includes EIA/Natura2000 stuff.

Maybe.

But I read somewhere, long time ago, that even in densely populated Germany infrastructure projects attract about one eight of the objections they do in Ireland.

If that is true (?) than it seems to indicate that our "planning process" facilitates cranks to an excessive degree.

salmocab · 13-06-2015 7:51am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Maybe.

But I read somewhere, long time ago, that even in densely populated Germany infrastructure projects attract about one eight of the objections they do in Ireland.

If that is true (?) than it seems to indicate that our "planning process" facilitates cranks to an excessive degree.

Or it could suggest that the Germans just fall into line when their government announce something and don't question it.

FreudianSlippers · 13-06-2015 9:13am

salmocab wrote: »

Or it could suggest that the Germans just fall into line when their government announce something and don't question it.

There's just less of a degree of hard-done-by-ness (for lack of a better term) when your party doesn't get in government in Germany - they accept that these are the people the majority want in power and they set the rules. It's quite cultural there and, historically, hasn't had the best outcomes.

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