Are FF sincere or acting in the party's best interests?

hallelujajordan · 25-03-2012 10:41am

I'm truly sick of hearing all of this nonsense about how Fianna Fail should disband coming mainly from the internet warriors whose only contribution to politics in Ireland are indignant rants on boards.ie or P.ie . .

Some facts . . . We live in a democratic republic. If people want to stand for an election under the banner of Fianna Fail they have every right to . . . despite anything that might have happened in the past. . . the electorate will decide if they have a right to continue to exist. . . At the last election the electorate gave Fianna Fail 17.5% of first preference votes and made them the biggest opposition party in Dail Eireann . . they have a mandate and a job to do and they should be allowed to do it. . .

I'm not sure about anyone else but I didn't learn anything fundamentally new in the Mahon report that changes my view . . . Of course, its a fresh opportunity to kick the dog but the dog has been well and truly kicked in the last 18 months and has decided to get back up, to reform, to reinvent and to present itself back to the electorate. . .

In some ways, the easier option would be to disband.

Laminations · 25-03-2012 1:25pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

. . Of course, its a fresh opportunity to kick the dog but the dog has been well and truly kicked in the last 18 months and has decided to get back up, to reform, to reinvent and to present itself back to the electorate. . .

You are not some innocent dog being oppressed and abused by the masees. You are a voluntary organisation whose core membership remains despite continued scandal and abuse in its hierarchy. Ok so after you are done feeling sorry for yourselves, maybe you could please answer the following so we can gauge the appetite for this 'reform' you speak of.

Originally Posted by jank
Are you and the wider FF parliamentary party going to demand the resignation of those members of the cabinet who sought to underime the tribunal in an effort to collapse it?

If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

If yes, where's the statement from Ogra FF or elsewhere?

This is a legitimate question which has been posed to another FF member on boards who has so far failed to answer it. Rather than dismiss the critics of FF as 'keyboard warriors'*, try and address their concerns - namely that your party hasn't changed.

*The majority of people want FF gone. You cannot have it both ways- you labelled people as ABFF, people voted in the last election to destroy FF, so you can talk of democratic mandate but you stand at 1 in 10. I'm sure the BNP use democracy as a Defense of their existence too, you can't hide behind 10% to defend the indefensible.

hallelujajordan · 25-03-2012 2:46pm

Laminations wrote: »

You are not some innocent dog being oppressed and abused by the masees. You are a voluntary organisation whose core membership remains despite continued scandal and abuse in its hierarchy. Ok so after you are done feeling sorry for yourselves, maybe you could please answer the following so we can gauge the appetite for this 'reform' you speak of.

I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . The dog knows, has acknowledged and has apologised for it's failings . . . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year and it deserves to be in opposition with only 20 seats. It also deserves the right (as does anyone in a democracy) to continue to stand in front of the electorate and ask for support.

Laminations wrote:

If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

Clearly the electorate believes so . .

Laminations wrote:

*The majority of people want FF gone. You cannot have it both ways- you labelled people as ABFF, people voted in the last election to destroy FF, so you can talk of democratic mandate but you stand at 1 in 10. I'm sure the BNP use democracy as a Defense of their existence too, you can't hide behind 10% to defend the indefensible.

That is a truly ridiculous statement . . political parties do not require majority support in order to exist . . If they did, we would live in a single party dictatorship . . .

raymon · 25-03-2012 3:03pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . The dog knows, has acknowledged and has apologised for it's failings . . . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year and it deserves to be in opposition with only 20 seats. It also deserves the right (as does anyone in a democracy) to continue to stand in front of the electorate and ask for support.

Clearly the electorate believes so . .

That is a truly ridiculous statement . . political parties do not require majority support in order to exist . . If they did, we would live in a single party dictatorship . . .

Do you still think Bertie was a great leader as you have said in the past ?

Laminations · 25-03-2012 9:17pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . The dog knows, has acknowledged and has apologised for it's failings . . . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year and it deserves to be in opposition with only 20 seats. It also deserves the right (as does anyone in a democracy) to continue to stand in front of the electorate and ask for support.

Clearly the electorate believes so . .

That is a truly ridiculous statement . . political parties do not require majority support in order to exist . . If they did, we would live in a single party dictatorship . . .

Okay so you believe FF should exist and limp on merely because of democracy. I'd disagree and suggest hiding behind 'the will of the people' shows a lack of party ethos and ethics. Clearly the electorate believes the FF members who criticised Mahon and defended Bertie should remain in the party? When was that vote taken? Are you referring to their election in 2011? That was before they were chastised byMahon for their behaviour. So you are saying if the people vote in Lowrys or Flynns or Aherns then FF will take no action as they got votes?

Some reform you've got going there.

I'll simplify the question to get a more direct answer.
Do you believe the party should reprimand any senior member that attacked Mahon or supported Bertie when all his evidence was balls? Do you think people openly 'trying to collapse' an independent tribunal are of acceptable quality for FF?

Mr.Micro · 25-03-2012 9:34pm

Laminations wrote: »

Do you believe the party should reprimand any senior member that attacked Mahon or supported Bertie when all his evidence was balls? Do you think people openly 'trying to collapse' an independent tribunal are of acceptable quality for FF?

Martin and O'Dea attacked the Tribunal investigating Bertie when it started to look at his affairs. Now that the Tribunal has been vindicated and Messrs Martin and O'Dea shown that they backed the wrong horse, not only that, but tried to derail an official Dail sanctioned investigation. They should resign now.

Chucky the tree · 25-03-2012 9:40pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm truly sick of hearing all of this nonsense about how Fianna Fail should disband coming mainly from the internet warriors whose only contribution to politics in Ireland are indignant rants on boards.ie or P.ie . .

Some facts . . . We live in a democratic republic. If people want to stand for an election under the banner of Fianna Fail they have every right to . . . despite anything that might have happened in the past. . . the electorate will decide if they have a right to continue to exist. . . At the last election the electorate gave Fianna Fail 17.5% of first preference votes and made them the biggest opposition party in Dail Eireann . . they have a mandate and a job to do and they should be allowed to do it. . .

I'm not sure about anyone else but I didn't learn anything fundamentally new in the Mahon report that changes my view . . . Of course, its a fresh opportunity to kick the dog but the dog has been well and truly kicked in the last 18 months and has decided to get back up, to reform, to reinvent and to present itself back to the electorate. . .

In some ways, the easier option would be to disband.

By electing a party leader who used to be the main dogs bitch? Fianna Fail can bang the drum about reinventing itself but as long as it keeps Martin as leader then it's clear to most people it's simply not true.

john reilly · 25-03-2012 10:40pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

THIS!!

This is exactly the post I was waiting to see!

You are 100%, completely and utterly WRONG in what you say.

Yes, Sinn Fein can be added to the list of criminal organisation along side FF, but at least (and I use that term very loosely) some of their criminal dealings had an iota of a noble cause behind it, but let's not forget that it is a party full of murderers and criminal gang members who have been involved in crime since long before the formation of the state, and recently enough members have been associated with the biggest robbery in the history of this island.

But, you are WRONG when you use the "ahhhhh sure listen lads, weren't they great! We all got a bit rich and aren't they all at it, you're mad if you think FG etc. don't do it..."

That just DOES NOT WASH.

FF, generation after generation, have been filled with criminal members, who not only openly take and solicit corrupt payments, but these are the individuals who rise to the very top of the party, and there is one very good reason for that, because this IS the party of crime and corruption.

What Labour leaders have been found to be corrupt? What Fine Gael leaders have been found to be corrupt? I could give you a list of FF ones that have been found to be corrupt, but it would be quicker to give you a list of the ones who HAVEN'T been disgraced and been found to either abuse their position, to have very inappropriate behavior or to be proven guilty of corruption.

The only reason Bertie Ahern isn't sitting in a jail cell right now is because he hid his tracks so well, ould teflon Bertie, but the tribunal told us all what we all already new, he absolutely lied through his teeth UNDER OATH (which is criminal) and they can not establish where over a QUARTER OF A MILLION EURO CAME FROM.

Now you tell me this, would you be able to explain 10 grand in your bank account or in cash in your house or where it came from? I sure as feck would, and I imagine the only person who couldn't give an extremely clear and logical and proven to be true answer is that they are concealing where it came from, for the reason that it came from criminal activity. He's a crook.

And this isn't some self preservation Darwinism that all FF's are pulling out now, the tribal fools, the other parties, such as FG, the second biggest party historically, have had "bad apples", but for every one in FG there have been FOUND TO BE at least 20 in FF, not to mention all the one not found, and how they are handled in FG is very different. I think only ONE relatively senior member of FG has ever been found to act inappropriately, and he was immediately kicked out of the party and the police were informed by the party....there are bad members in society, and sadly they will tarnish the name sometimes, but what happens in FF? The tribunal found that SENIOR MEMBERS OF GOVERNMENT did everything in their power to derail and collapse the tribunal so that it couldn't get to the bottom of things...now you tell me that's not the actions of a group of gangsters trying to all hide their own sh*t smeared walls and trying to padlock shut Pandora’s box...

Please for the love of God, DO NOT try and drag other parties into this, just like FF officials are trying to do at the moment, by trying to get the whole nations trust in honest public servants ruined and destroyed, just so you can make your own sh*t look less bad....

FF has maintained being the biggest party for a long time for the reason that it's the criminals private club. Money makes everything happen, and the fact that they've maintained 80% of absolute power in this state since it's formation, if not more, is an absolute indictment to how corrupt they are, that all the right people are keeping them sweet and making sure they stay in there.

Sure what use is a FG Government when you can't buy them and can't get all the zoning you want and can't get the contract you want??? It's verrrry verrrry bad for business, and I think in a capitalist world where business is as powerful as Government, the lack of traditional opposition time in power is a glowing endorsement to their inability to be corrupted.

I hope forensic accountants are contracted by the garda to investigate these accounts, and I want to see serious jail time to all the senior politicians (all FF) and the lowly councilors (including some FG & Labour ones).

But don't tarnish the good name of good people and good parties by dragging the sh*te of FF beyond their own doorstep and try and undermine peoples intelligence by suggesting that this is anything other than a FF traditional and code of conduct to involve themselves in corrupt activities.

History is the best barometer of the future, and history has shown, you don't go far in FF unless you're corrupt to the bone.

I only read the first few lines of this. hope you go far in f.g. provided you are prepared to bow down to the british and now germans and soon the chinese. i can see you going far. especially dont stand up an fight for the people who put you there. while f.g and labour remain spineless there will always be support for f.f and hopefully more so s.f

southsiderosie · 25-03-2012 11:09pm

MOD NOTE:

Some of the posts here are getting too personal. If people are willing to talk on this thread about their party affiliation fine, but please don't make assumptions or veer too far off of the main point of this thread, which is FF's decision-making in the wake of the Mahon revelations.

Dirk Gently · 25-03-2012 11:28pm

The FF whip Sean O'Fearghail just got his ass handed to him by Sean O'Rourke on the week in politics. He asked if they should hold an emergency ard feis on disbanding FF once and for all, then said 3 out of the last 4 leaders were corrupt, with the 4th driving the economy over a cliff. When the FF'er tried to separate the 3 from the 1, Sean o Rourke said "3 letters, I.M.F"

Strong stuff, good strong stuff.

hallelujajordan · 25-03-2012 11:53pm

raymon wrote: »

Do you still think Bertie was a great leader as you have said in the past ?

Per southsiderosie's comment this is both off-topic and personal . . If you want to start a thread about Bertie Ahern's leadership abilities then go ahead . . If I have the time and energy I will debate with you

Laminations wrote: »

Okay so you believe FF should exist and limp on merely because of democracy.

No, I believe they should exist because they want to exist and because we live in a democracy which gives them the right to exist

Laminations wrote: »

I'd disagree and suggest hiding behind 'the will of the people' shows a lack of party ethos and ethics.

How am I hiding behind the will of the people ? All I am doing is recognising that in a democracy Fianna Fail (or any other party for that matter) have a right to exist regardless of whether they have 1%, 10% or 100% support from the electorate . .

Laminations wrote: »

Clearly the electorate believes the FF members who criticised Mahon and defended Bertie should remain in the party? When was that vote taken? Are you referring to their election in 2011? That was before they were chastised by Mahon for their behaviour

Did you learn anything new from the Mahon report ? I did not. .

Laminations wrote: »

I'll simplify the question to get a more direct answer.
Do you believe the party should reprimand any senior member that attacked Mahon or supported Bertie when all his evidence was balls?

No I do not. . . We live in a democracy . . do democratic politicians have a right to question the actions of a tribunal ? Of course they do . . Do they have a right to support Bertie Ahern during the judicial process ? Of course they do . .

Laminations wrote:

Do you think people openly 'trying to collapse' an independent tribunal are of acceptable quality for FF?

If there were any evidence that either O'Dea or Micheal Martin actively tried to collapse the tribunal then yes, I would have a problem with their continued membership in FF . . And no, I do not believe that O'Dea's 'communion money' comment qualifies as an attempt to collapse the tribunal.

[Jackass] · 26-03-2012 6:16pm

john reilly wrote: »

I only read the first few lines of this. hope you go far in f.g. provided you are prepared to bow down to the british and now germans and soon the chinese. i can see you going far. especially dont stand up an fight for the people who put you there. while f.g and labour remain spineless there will always be support for f.f and hopefully more so s.f

Don't reply to posts you don't read then, and don't patronise me with this "you'll go far in fg" rubbish! I have about as much interest in being involved in ANY political party as you do of taking off tinted tribal glasses, and as far bow down to these nations, how do you think we ended up here in the first place?? I can't stand supporters of the previous Government trying to put any of the blame on the current Government, who I actually think are doing a fine job cleaning up this mess, and that's not a party member talking, that's someone who actually trusts the current Government and doesn't think it's full off crooks like FF (and SF - who are the joke of a party that hopefully FF will be on a par with when it comes to people realisticly ever considering them for power)

Shea O'Meara · 26-03-2012 7:07pm

liammur wrote: »

Are FF genuine or are they leading us up the garden path once more?

I believe it was a no brainer that he would be expelled. For one reason, and one reason only, he is a liability to the party.

Now if FF are sincere, and they want to prove me wrong, expel Willie O Dea and any other minister of the time who challenged the tribunal e.g. O Dea talking about 'the tribunal investigating Ahern's communion money next'. This was a slant and an attempt to discredit the tribunal. There must be repercussions for such minisiters of that time if they are sincere.

That's exactly it. They'll only move against anyone based on what they can or cannot bring to the table. They took back Cooper-Flynn and stood by O'Dea because they brought in votes.
If they had any honour as people they would have some sort of standards, but they follow the money/power and will tell you black is white to get it. The Mahon report gives no proof of illegal activity by Ahern....so why not expel him when these revelations about dig outs and winning on the horses first came to light?

It's now in their interest to distance themselves from Ahern that is all it is, no accountability or loyalty to their non-corrupt party supporters on the ground. They should apologise to their supports, (however few genuine ones can exist in good conscience) and the country. They always seem to be concerned about how the party looks over the damage done to society.

It's this attitude that will and currently is breeding the next DeValera, Haughey, Lawlor, Burke, Flynn, Ahern, (could go on).

Reading some of the posts on here it really is like the civil war is being fought over and over. It explains the blinkered generational loyalty by some. Really sad and worrying.

Shea O'Meara · 26-03-2012 9:11pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm truly sick of hearing all of this nonsense about how Fianna Fail should disband coming mainly from the internet warriors whose only contribution to politics in Ireland are indignant rants on boards.ie or P.ie . .

Some facts . . . We live in a democratic republic. If people want to stand for an election under the banner of Fianna Fail they have every right to . . . despite anything that might have happened in the past. . .

I for one am sick of FFail apologists using the old chestnut 'in the past' over and over again, because these issues just keep on coming. It's present by the way, you're supposed to wait a few months before you berate us all for living in the past and not paying attention to the new whiter than white FFail :rolleyes:

hallelujajordan wrote: »

the electorate will decide if they have a right to continue to exist. . . At the last election the electorate gave Fianna Fail 17.5% of first preference votes and made them the biggest opposition party in Dail Eireann . . they have a mandate and a job to do and they should be allowed to do it. . .

Agreed.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not sure about anyone else but I didn't learn anything fundamentally new in the Mahon report that changes my view . . . Of course, its a fresh opportunity to kick the dog but the dog has been well and truly kicked in the last 18 months and has decided to get back up, to reform, to reinvent and to present itself back to the electorate. . .

In some ways, the easier option would be to disband.

The aul' troopers, sure fair play, the martyrs....pull the other one.
it's got Jack Lynch on it.

john reilly · 26-03-2012 9:22pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

That's exactly it. They'll only move against anyone based on what they can or cannot bring to the table. They took back Cooper-Flynn and stood by O'Dea because they brought in votes.
If they had any honour as people they would have some sort of standards, but they follow the money/power and will tell you black is white to get it. The Mahon report gives no proof of illegal activity by Ahern....so why not expel him when these revelations about dig outs and winning on the horses first came to light?

It's now in their interest to distance themselves from Ahern that is all it is, no accountability or loyalty to their non-corrupt party supporters on the ground. They should apologise to their supports, (however few genuine ones can exist in good conscience) and the country. They always seem to be concerned about how the party looks over the damage done to society.

It's this attitude that will and currently is breeding the next DeValera, Haughey, Lawlor, Burke, Flynn, Ahern, (could go on).

Reading some of the posts on here it really is like the civil war is being fought over and over. It explains the blinkered generational loyalty by some. Really sad and worrying.

no comment nessecary

Shea O'Meara · 27-03-2012 2:35pm

On my point that as Ahern was not legally found guilty of anything other than not giving any honest responce, i.e. lying, in other words no new relevations about him came to light, FFail only deciding to distance themselves now just shows it's all window dressing.....

john reilly wrote: »

no comment nessecary

I'm glad you agree.

We've the other liar Willie at it now. All on board for halting payment to the pensions of those found to be corrupt...yet...

Deputy O'Dea had in December 2007 said: ""I'm waiting for the day that the tribunal goes back to Bertie Ahern's First Communion money and starts questioning whether he got it in notes or coins or whether he put it in a real bank or a piggy bank or did he get a half crown from (developer) Owen O'Callaghan".

Again, is it because the boys who got found out, unlike himself, can bring nothing to the party?

hallelujajordan · 27-03-2012 6:50pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

The aul' troopers, sure fair play, the martyrs....pull the other one.
it's got Jack Lynch on it.

You are the second person to deliberately misinterpret my comment as some sort of plea for sympathy on behalf of FF, even though it clearly isn't (as you would have discovered had you read my earlier response)

hallelujajordan wrote:

I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . The dog knows, has acknowledged and has apologised for it's failings . . . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year and it deserves to be in opposition with only 20 seats.

Also . .

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

We've the other liar Willie at it now. All on board for halting payment to the pensions of those found to be corrupt...yet...

Deputy O'Dea had in December 2007 said: ""I'm waiting for the day that the tribunal goes back to Bertie Ahern's First Communion money and starts questioning whether he got it in notes or coins or whether he put it in a real bank or a piggy bank or did he get a half crown from (developer) Owen O'Callaghan".

Again, is it because the boys who got found out, unlike himself, can bring nothing to the party?

I think you are being unfair on Deputy O'Dea . . you are implying that there is some sort of contradiction between a) believing the tribunal are digging beyond their terms of reference in the investigation into Bertie Ahern and b) believing that those convicted of corruption should have their pensions withdrawn . . there is no contradiction in these two beliefs.

Laminations · 27-03-2012 7:37pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You are the second person to deliberately misinterpret my comment as some sort of plea for sympathy on behalf of FF, even though it clearly isn't (as you would have discovered had you read my earlier response)

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan
I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . The dog knows, has acknowledged and has apologised for it's failings . . . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year and it deserves to be in opposition with only 20 seats.

You likened the party to a battered dog, that imagery portrays the party as 'attacked' or 'mistreated' rather than rightly punished. No you never claimed, but the choice of comparison strongly implied. Even your equivocation smacks of self-pity. The dog has acknowledged? Acknowledged what? Incompetence? Dodginess? Mismanagement? Not in any meaningful way. Not with a broad-brush clear-out of anyone in a senior position during the years of incompetence and mismanagement. And the kicking it got? again sounds like it was harsh or an overreaction.

We've seen form the FFers here the appetite for true reform. You only distance yourself from members when it suits the party. No intention of penalising any members who criticised the tribunal or who supported Bertie wholeheartedly (you can phrase this as questioning the 'terms of reference' if you like). You deserve to be in opposition with only 20 seats? You deserve far fewer seats.

Shea O'Meara · 27-03-2012 8:11pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You are the second person to deliberately misinterpret my comment as some sort of plea for sympathy on behalf of FF, even though it clearly isn't (as you would have discovered had you read my earlier response).

I agree with Laminations post on this. To be fair, it does read like an 'enough is enough/kick a man when he's down' remark of self pity. And the likening FFails plight to that of a poor defensless mutt having been attacked, and again, reads of the martyr and like any ill-will or criticism is no longer deserved.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I think you are being unfair on Deputy O'Dea . . you are implying that there is some sort of contradiction between a) believing the tribunal are digging beyond their terms of reference in the investigation into Bertie Ahern and b) believing that those convicted of corruption should have their pensions withdrawn . . there is no contradiction in these two beliefs.

Deputy O'Dea is a liar. On my other point, he was making light of how far the Tribunal was going, as along with other rank and file members he was casting scorn on the process. Today he takes on board it's findings to the extent that he backs any moves towards former and current rank and file members based on said findings, (having previously mocked the process).....That's a contradiction. Unless he's lying again, but who knows with the bauld Willie?

raymon · 27-03-2012 8:59pm

I can't take a man who tells lies under oath at his word.

Willie talks out of both sides of his moustache.

Which ever way the wind blows

hallelujajordan · 27-03-2012 9:25pm

Laminations wrote: »

You likened the party to a battered dog, that imagery portrays the party as 'attacked' or 'mistreated' rather than rightly punished. No you never claimed, but the choice of comparison strongly implied. Even your equivocation smacks of self-pity. The dog has acknowledged? Acknowledged what? Incompetence? Dodginess? Mismanagement? Not in any meaningful way. Not with a broad-brush clear-out of anyone in a senior position during the years of incompetence and mismanagement. And the kicking it got? again sounds like it was harsh or an overreaction.

I think that's unfair, particularly in light of my follow on post but OK, maybe it came across as self-pitiful. . . it wasn't meant to . . I don't believe that Fianna Fail were unfairly treated in any way. .

I also don't believe that we learned anything new when Mahon published his report last week so the fresh indignation is a little tiresome... Fianna Fail want to move on. Moreover, they have a right within our democracy to be allowed to move on... As far as I know none of the 20 FF deputies in Dail Eireann have any questions to answer, they have all been democratically elected and collectively they have the mandate from 17.5% of the electorate who gave them a first preference to act as the primary opposition party. If we respect democracy we have to respect that mandate even though we don't agree with it.

Laminations wrote:

We've seen form the FFers here the appetite for true reform.

I'm very pleased that you recognise that

Laminations wrote:

You only distance yourself from members when it suits the party. No intention of penalising any members who criticised the tribunal or who supported Bertie wholeheartedly (you can phrase this as questioning the 'terms of reference' if you like).

Wait, maybe you didn't mean that ? ?

Look, personally I do not have a problem with anyone questioning the tribunal . .? Do you ?

Laminations wrote:

You deserve to be in opposition with only 20 seats? You deserve far fewer seats.

Again, If you respect the democratic process then you have to respect the fact that the electorate believes FF 'deserve' 20 seats even if you dont . .

hallelujajordan · 27-03-2012 9:32pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I agree with Laminations post on this. To be fair, it does read like an 'enough is enough/kick a man when he's down' remark of self pity. And the likening FFails plight to that of a poor defensless mutt having been attacked, and again, reads of the martyr and like any ill-will or criticism is no longer deserved.

Laminations can comfortably offer such an explanation but I had already clarified what I meant when I used the dog analogy before your response . . I think I was pretty clear . .

hallelujajordan wrote:

I never claimed the dog was innocent . . and i never suggested there was any oppression. . Fianna Fail deserved the kicking it got last year

Shea O'Meara wrote:

Deputy O'Dea is a liar. On my other point, he was making light of how far the Tribunal was going, as along with other rank and file members he was casting scorn on the process. Today he takes on board it's findings to the extent that he backs any moves towards former and current rank and file members based on said findings, (having previously mocked the process).....That's a contradiction. Unless he's lying again, but who knows with the bauld Willie?

I think you are allowing your feelings about O'Dea to cloud your judgement . . There is no contradiction between questioning the depth to which a tribunal should be allowed to dig into an individuals personal finances and saying that those found guilty of corruption should lose their pension entitlements.

raymon · 27-03-2012 9:42pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

As far as I know none of the 20 FF deputies in Dail Eireann have any questions to answer.

What about Sean Fleming for pretending not to know about Flynns payments.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0323/breaking14.html

What about Willie the liar and Michael Martin for trying to undermine the tribunal.

All three have questions to answer

john reilly · 27-03-2012 9:59pm

raymon wrote: »

What about Sean Fleming for pretending not to know about Flynns payments.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0323/breaking14.html

What about Willie the liar and Michael Martin for trying to undermine the tribunal.

All three have questions to answer

if not being a liar was a prerequisite for being in the dail. it would be a very lonely place

raymon · 27-03-2012 10:01pm

john reilly wrote: »

if not being a liar was a prerequisite for being in the dail. it would be a very lonely place

Are you not talking about FF ?

Laminations · 28-03-2012 12:37am

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I also don't believe that we learned anything new when Mahon published his report last week so the fresh indignation is a little tiresome...

What? So why are Bertie et al only being ejected from the party now? If there is nothing new in Mahon then you knew his evidence was baloney? Are you going to hide behind the electorate in that one too and claim he couldn't have been expelled from the party in 2007/2008 because he had just gotten a democratic mandate? That excuse shows no moral backbone or ethos in FF, there is just political gamesmanship and tactical faux outrage. Martin and O'Dea could be expelled from FF now, it wouldn't interfere with their mandate, they'd still sit in the Dail as independents - it would simply being FF distancing themselves for the sake of party standards rather than their current motives of only moving against tarnished members when it's a boon for public opinion. You really need to stop harbouring incompetents and cleanse your party.

Look, personally I do not have a problem with anyone questioning the tribunal . .? Do you ?

Any joe soap? No. A sitting member of the Dail? Yes I do have a problem with that. Its the same as if they interfered with court proceedings - something Trevor Seargant stood down for.

hallelujajordan · 28-03-2012 8:31am

Laminations wrote: »

What? So why are Bertie et al only being ejected from the party now? If there is nothing new in Mahon then you knew his evidence was baloney?

I made up my own mind when I read Bertie aherns evidence myself. Hearing Judge Mahon's opinion has not given me any extra information or changed my opinion in any way ..

Laminations wrote:

Are you going to hide behind the electorate in that one too and claim he couldn't have been expelled from the party in 2007/2008 because he had just gotten a democratic mandate? That excuse shows no moral backbone or ethos in FF, there is just political gamesmanship and tactical faux outrage.

You are attacking an excuse that I haven't made ?? You are right, FiannaFail could have (and perhaps in retrospect, should have) expelled Bertie Ahern in 2007/2008 . . much of his 'evidence' was in the public domain at the time and the party could have made up its own mind about whether or not he was telling the truth. . However, perhaps they felt it was a fairer approach to allow him the due process of the tribunal and its report ? I don't think that is unreasonable . .

Laminations wrote:

Martin and O'Dea could be expelled from FF now, it wouldn't interfere with their mandate, they'd still sit in the Dail as independents - it would simply being FF distancing themselves for the sake of party standards rather than their current motives of only moving against tarnished members when it's a boon for public opinion. You really need to stop harbouring incompetents and cleanse your party.

For what reason ? Questioning the tribunal .. I think that is a nonsense. And i don't think it is fair and objective to characterise Micheal Martin as an incompetent ..

Laminations wrote:

Any joe soap? No. A sitting member of the Dail? Yes I do have a problem with that. Its the same as if they interfered with court proceedings - something Trevor Seargant stood down for.

That is an entirely different matter and the comparison does not hold. . The tribunal was not a court of law and the comments O'Dea made were open and in the public domain. .

Laminations · 28-03-2012 11:31am

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I made up my own mind when I read Bertie aherns evidence myself. Hearing Judge Mahon's opinion has not given me any extra information or changed my opinion in any way ..

Where we're your outraged posts about Bertie in 2007/2008/2009? Seems you and FF only jumped on the bandwagon now that the wagon has gotten the approval of the tribunal judge.

You are attacking an excuse that I haven't made ?? You are right, FiannaFail could have (and perhaps in retrospect, should have) expelled Bertie Ahern in 2007/2008 . . much of his 'evidence' was in the public domain at the time and the party could have made up its own mind about whether or not he was telling the truth. . However, perhaps they felt it was a fairer approach to allow him the due process of the tribunal and its report ? I don't think that is unreasonable . .

With the truly unbeleivable nature of his evidence, statements could have been made to distance FF from him, but they weren't. Senior FFers supported him and attacked the tribunal. This is yet another after the fact 'oh well yeah we could have and probably should have done that differently'. Is there a limit on the number of times you should be allowed use that type of 'acknowledgement' of past mistakes?

EDIT: why 'perhaps in retrospect, should have'. Retrospect involves evaluating past decisions based on what we know now. You say we learned nothing new?

For what reason ? Questioning the tribunal .. I think that is a nonsense.

So Dail members should be allowed interfere with or collapse legal proceedings? See it doesn't matter how serios you deem this to be, you either accept the Mahon report in full where ministers behaviour is strongly criticised. Do you disagree with Mahon about the seriousness of this?

And i don't think it is fair and objective to characterise Micheal Martin as an incompetent ..

Since 26th June 1997 Micheal Martin has spent 4,941 days or 118,584 hours as a Senior Minister in Government. He was part of the deadwood Cabinet that Cowen inherited from Ahern. This group of traitors collectively destroyed the country through their (at best) incompetence and indecisiveness. (this alone should be enough to establish his 'goodness of fit' for the current supposedly reforming FF)

He established the juggernaut HSE. In 2001 Micheal Martin, then Minister for Health , announced his intention to end waiting lists by 2004

He failed in an attempt to oust the worst leader in FFs long history who had 8% support from the people of Ireland.

He thinks Willy O'Dea is fit to serve the Irish people

He was responsible for the Nursing Homes Scandal

That is an entirely different matter and the comparison does not hold. . The tribunal was not a court of law and the comments O'Dea made were open and in the public domain. .

Making public critical comments from a ministerial position is interference, end of.

Interesting reading http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/martin-cannot-brush-off-criticism-for-his-silence-on-tribunal-bashing-188563.html

hallelujajordan · 28-03-2012 12:08pm

Laminations wrote: »

Where we're your outraged posts about Bertie in 2007/2008/2009? Seems you and FF only jumped on the bandwagon now that the wagon has gotten the approval of the tribunal judge.

Who said I was outraged ? . . not sure that I was ever outraged about 'Bertie Ahern' . . either then or now !

laminations wrote:

With the truly unbeleivable nature of his evidence, statements could have been made to distance FF from him, but they weren't. Senior FFers supported him and attacked the tribunal. This is yet another after the fact 'oh well yeah we could have and probably should have done that differently'.

I agree with you . . different statements could have been made and it was decided (in retrospect, perhaps unwisely) that Ahern should be afforded the due process of the tribunal . . ?

laminations wrote:

Is there a limit on the number of times you should be allowed use that type of 'acknowledgement' of past mistakes?

Not sure I understand what you mean . . what kind of limit would you impose.. in my view, the electorate impose the limit and exert the appropriate punishment once the limit has been exceeded . . would you like to see something different in place. .

Laminations wrote:

EDIT: why 'perhaps in retrospect, should have'. Retrospect involves evaluating past decisions based on what we know now. You say we learned nothing new?

In retrospect, given everything that has happened since then, clearly it would have been a stronger 'reform' message to send to the electorate had people like Flynn and Ahern been thrown out of the party earlier.

Laminations wrote:

So Dail members should be allowed interfere with or collapse legal proceedings? See it doesn't matter how serios you deem this to be, you either accept the Mahon report in full where ministers behaviour is strongly criticised. Do you disagree with Mahon about the seriousness of this?

I do not believe that O'Dea's communion money comment did anything to interfere with or attempt to collapse the tribunal proceedings (do you ?) . . if anything, comments like that have had the opposite effect . . . and I have not seen any evidence that either he or Micheal Martin did anything else to interfere with the tribunal . . perhaps they did but Mahon has not been specific or clear about this at all.

blinding · 31-03-2012 11:43am

Surely if the ffraudsters understood the word sincere they would disband.

Ireland will be much better off without this institutionally corrupt party.

Are FF sincere or acting in the party's best interests?

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