N7 - Newlands Cross upgrade

dugganm07 wrote: »

Does the fact that these are going to be built through PPP mean that newlands cross will be tolled?

No this was answered already.

Newlands cross interchange needs a proper wider bridge to facilitate extra traffic on it. A 3 lane section here is to short sighted this close to Dublin city. Since most of the M7 needs widening and the DC carries 90,000 cars a day. Traffic backs up to the M50 and Rathcoole at peak times. It would make sense that the N7 should have room for 4 lanes each way to Citywest.

A distrubuter road should be built from the luas P+R to free up weaving and local movements off the mainline and move the bus lane onto the distrubutor road also. I think the NRA/SDCC already included this in the plan now.

The SDCC should seriously think about putting a decent R road to connect Belgard with the Luas park and ride and the Redcow. Either way it has to be done, the current LILO at the redcow is far to dangerous to keep there in the long term.

MYOB wrote: »

The reason the old thread was locked and this one created was you going on about this.

The section to be bridge does not carry 90,000 PCUs through traffic. It never has, and it won't for 20+ years if ever. Turning traffic will not be crossing the bridge.

Sorry but I dissagree. I posted facts from the road needs study graphs and NRA counters. I believe traffic is well over the figure you gave, and even the Counter at Johnstown has traffic with 75,000 2007/08. I have always made the point clear with regards to all N routes near Dublin increase dramatically closer to the city. Newlands cross is the busiest junction in the country. It deserves to be future proofed to at least 4 lanes wide each way, (even if not widened now) but room been provided seems logical.

It's good to plan ahead. You can dissagree however.

MYOB wrote: »

You can "believe" the traffic is well over the actual figures given by the NRA, but its not. The NRAs figures are accurate. Your fantasies are not.

As goes "increase dramatically closer to the city" - no, they don't. Traffic figures tail off heavily as they pass by large generators of journeys. Between Johnstown the N7 passes:

*Rathcoole - Greenogue and Aerodrome Business Parks
*Citywest
*The Outer Ring Road, and hence Profile Park, Grange Castle

I wouldn't be surprised if Citywest eats 10,000 PCUs of the figure seen at Johnstown alone.

Then we come to NX itself, where about 15,000 PCUs leave to either the Belgard or Fonthill Roads. These PCUs will not cross the bridge.


Three lanes each side is perfectly fine. The NRA is working off real world figures, not fantasy world ones.

Look MYOB you can argue over this again. But I travel this road regulary and the road traffic increases all the way to the Redcow. Naas, Sallins, Rathcoole, Saggart,Kill, Newcastle are commuter towns. These are all along side the N7. Traffic increases because they residents in these areas work in the greater Dublin area.

The NRA figures for Johnstown is 75,000. Kill would have higher traffic counts than the Johnstown one. The old counters pre upgraded N7, were 60,000 at Johnstowns and 64,000 at Kill. Even years ago, traffic backed up at the Rathcoole junction more than the kill or Johnstown lights. You may not be familar with this road. But having travelled it quite regulary. The kill lights had quese twice the lenght of the Johnstown junction. It simply means commuting traffic drops as it filters into the towns further away from Dublin.


Obvously Newlands cross is the busiest of all of them. I don't like to use todays traffic figures to build roads, I like to future proof roads. I think your just arguing for the sake of it.

MYOB wrote: »

Oh, I'm fully familiar with the road. Moreso than you, it'd appear, as you seem to be oblivious to how much traffic leaves the road at NX, the ORR, Citywest and Rathcoole.

More people work in Rathcoole/Newcastle in the business parks than live there and work in the city centre. Significantly more work in City West than live there and work in the CC.

I've stated the facts and actual demography of the road. I happen to use the road daily. I don't think you can vouch to know where all the commuters decide to go at NX, but the N7 traffic increases all the way to the redcow and peaks at the red cow junction itself.

Kill has higher traffic volumes than Johnstown. Rathcoole and Saggart has higher volumes than Kill, Newlands cross has higher traffic than the rest. Red cow has even more. I pass this road regulary. And traffic does not drop at all at Newlands cross.

These are the facts. It was the was the situation before the Naas road upgrades. Rathcoole traffic lights were a nightmare long before Kill and Johnstown were.

Your just very wrong on your notions of Traffic at Rathcoole just dropping 10,000 :rolleyes: But we will aggree to dissagree on the latter.

For common sense reasons (with the interurbans finishing, population increases along the N7, M7 widening to 3 lanes)
I would like to see the Rathcoole to Redcow future proofed, with NX been wide enough for provision of a fourth lane in the future. I think it would be logical to make it wider anyhow.

The same issue arised with the M50 SE section motorway. The contractor asked to build it at 3 lanes at a fraction of the cost of a 2 laner, but SDCC and the NRA declined, and here they are widening it as we speak.

MYOB wrote: »

Oh, I'm fully familiar with the road. Moreso than you, it'd appear, as you seem to be oblivious to how much traffic leaves the road at NX, the ORR, Citywest and Rathcoole.

More people work in Rathcoole/Newcastle in the business parks than live there and work in the city centre. Significantly more work in City West than live there and work in the CC.

Wrong east facing slips are busier at Citywest, Rathcoole. NX. The ORR has busier West facing slips (to avoid the NX bottleneck and go up the N4 to Dublin and all the business parks up that road.

Rathcoole traffic jumps extensiviely at the interchange there towards Dublin. Since Saggart, Rathcoole and Newcastle join the N7. The N7 here used to be a lane gane and the 3 laner used to end at Rathcoole. Simply because traffic grew at this point.

MYOB wrote: »

Traffic counts to prove same, please.

Oh wait, not only do you not have any, you won't find any to support your assertion.



Also, do you not see how its completely irrelevant if these create further Dublin bound traffic? They're opposite flows. Their peak flows are at opposite times. They do not add any further to peak time congestion on a given flow! And the use of any slip at NX is irrelevant as goes traffic *crossing the bridge* and just further shows that there is a huge amount of traffic that will not be crossing the bridge.

You don't understand traffic flows as far as I can see.

When I say east facing (Dublin side) It means traffic going east of coming from the east to and from the interchange.

When I say the west facing (Limerick side) It means traffic to and from Rathcoole will go west towards Limerick.

The fact is, Every interchange bar ORR has higher eastern direction flows. It's precisely why Kill is a bigger bottleneck than, Johnstown etc.

It's just your not understanding the basics.

The N7 is also a destination from the South and west of the country to Dublin, not NX. So 99percent of the traffic will continue on the N7, so will most of the Commuting traffic. Traffic doesnt back up that much for turning right of the NX from the Limerick direction at all.

murphaph wrote: »

Can't believe you're still at this carry on. N7 northbound at Newlands has one left turn lane and 2 right turn lanes with 3 straight ahead lanes. The 2 right turn lanes are very long and are heavily used by traffic getting into Tallaght, although presumably this figure is down since the ORR southern extension opened a couple of years ago. Lots of traffic also leaves at Citywest.

You are just guessing traffic figures Mysterious. I used to drive Newcastle-Tallaght everyday for a couple of years. I was not alone in leaving the N7 at or before Newlands to reach Tallaght. What is your day to day experience of the road at this point? Are you a daily commuter on it like I was? You have a traffic counter in the next county and are working all your made up figures from that.

LOL.

Dude, there are traffic counters all along the N7 and the fact is, the N7 traffic rises all the time as it gets closer to Dublin, since all the population centres are dormitory towns to Dublin city. I agree traffic turns right at Newlands it's called a cross type junction.

The majority of N7 goes straight ahead. The right turn may take a few thousand a day fair enough. But traffic is still at 3x3 capacity.

I agree with Bluntguy on his stance. It's logical to assume that it would be money well spent leaving room for 4 lanes. Since the interurbans are finishing up and newlands cross is grade separated, I can garentee (and most will agree) Traffic will condense along this old bottleneck section of N7. The fact that its this close to the Redcow and M50. It's common sense to allow 4 lanes each way from Citywest to the Redcow. It is the busiest section of N7 and has always been.

BluntGuy wrote: »

I won't shut this thread down, provided we stay on the side of debate, as it has done so far, and doesn't turn into mud-slinging like the last N11 thread did.

Mysterious, your observations are duly noted, and I agree that at least provision should be made for 4x4. However, if the traffic counts are stating otherwise, then that is simply that. There are arguments for making the bridge 4x4, but ignoring official figures isn't a good place to start.

Thats what I'm trying to express, and while I've made my points I'm taking other aspects into consideration and not just soley relying on one source on this topic. I think people should understand this section of road is the busiest road after the M50. I'm aware traffic has dwindled at NX because it's a horrible bottleneck. But the fact is its well over 3x3 capacity. I think on future road openings and traffic growth along this road, its just common sense to either build 4x4 or give alot more room for expansion in the "future".

Traffic will surpass the NRA traffic predictions on the EIS, because the NRA do not take into account that NX is severly congested. Congested roads don't attract traffic or have full capacity flows.

Jayuu wrote: »

Totally agree with this. This should be put top of the priority list.

In fact it should have been done as part of the M50 upgrade. Its crazy (and yet typical) to think that they spent the best part of two years removing the Red Cow roundabout so that outbound traffic could just pile up a mile down the road at Newlands Cross.
I've come off the M50 here a couple of times at around 4 in the afternoon and traffic is already almost backed up to the motorway. God only knows what it must be like an hour later.

It should be 4 lanes each way the whole way down off the M50 and through the junction till Citywest.

The distrubuter road from ORR to NX should then connect at the NX grade separate junction and then proceed on the southern quadrant of the N7 and join the luas P + R and free up the road from local traffic and dangerous weaving movements that exist onto the N7.This will mean a safer proper DC connecting the South and west properly to the M50 with a 100kmh speed limit.

Last friday traffic backed all the way up the Westbound slips off the M50 (coming from the north) onto the Redcow all the way to Newlands cross. That was 3 o clock. It's worse than the old redcow if you think about it.

murphaph wrote: »

You didn't answer my question.

Do you commute on this road on a daily basis? How many times per year do you use NX and are you using it at peak times, in both directions?

Fair questions because you are extrapolating data which YOU DO NOT HAVE! The N7 corridor is entirely different to the M4 as it passes predominantly housing on it's approaches to the M50. The N7 passes little housing and lots of employment centres on its approach to the M50 though, taking cars OFF the N7 inbound at peak times, before or at NX! I witnessed this process for 2 years, 5 days a week. So what is your practical experience of NX Dude?

I use the N7 2-4 times a week. I lived in Tipperary also, so I was kinda bred on the N7..

But i've looked at all the facts, opinions, results of the NRA and what not and used my brain to see the best way forward for the NX junction.

You are just worshipping the EIS and only that. I've already explained aspects of this road and traffic the EIS has not done so previously.

Employment and Residential areas both attract traffic. The N7 is a nationaly primary route dude. It has a large residental catchement along the N7 and since the Naas road upgrade, Rathcoole, Saggart, Newcastle, Naas, Salins, Kill and Johnstown has all seen massive population growth. Saggart recently has built a few hundred houses adjacent to the N7.

Your argument is negible. Simply because you want to try twist your opinions to your way of thinking that this road doesn't deserve future proofing. If there are large business parks on this road it wil too attract traffic from Dublin city out to Citywest. Since you've mentioned that, traffic will still increase on the N7 no matter what way you look at it.