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Job Advise

  • 20-11-2013 12:42pm
    #1
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭


    I posted a few weeks ago over on Work & Jobs forum but didn't get too much advise so I am posting here again as its a more targeted group.

    My post on Work & Jobs
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87428996
    I was hired less then two months ago for a multinational in Dublin were I was meant to be doing Python development (new language for me) in an Agile team which is made up of BA, PM, DB Dev and two people who configure a 3rd party application.

    There is two other feature teams based in London who are Python and DB developers who do all the development work for the project we work on.

    Due to the rest of my team not being developers they take on work to suit their skill set which leaves no development work for me only for me help them with their tasks.

    My manager who hired me has move internally to a different team and now my manager is seated in London which is a bit of shame as the guy who moved had a whole plan for me which has fallen by the waste side.

    There was meant to be a good bit of development coming our way but it has been decided that we use SSIS (which I hate) instead of Python as support know how to use SSIS.

    I had a meeting with my new manager and listed my concerns but it wasn't as constructive as I would of liked and he said he doesn't know when development work will come to my team as he himself is new to team.

    I am not sure what to do as I cannot see any development coming my way and even if it did I have no one around me to help me / do pair programming with.

    What should I do?

    What I didn't say in the quoted posted was in the two months that I have been here I only only done one SSIS task which lasted all of two days. There is no code review on on the SSIS either so it doesn't look like I will get any constructive criticism.

    Every other task I have been given has been config related (by this I mean going into the application and clicking buttons). At the moment I cannot see where the development is going to come from.

    I am only in the field just under 3 years so I am not all that experienced. I am always thinking 'what skills am I gaining that will get me the next job' and at the moment I cannot see what skills I am gaining other then knowledge of this 3rd party software (just how to use it as we don't have access to the source code).

    I moved to this role to get more development experience as with my old employer I wasn't getting much either (I was in a support role for 6 months before leaving but was in development before that) so while I am happy at the wage I am getting I think the longer I stay the less employable I will be and will find it impossible to find a new job if I decided to leave.

    Should I wait it out until I have done 6 months here to see if anything comes my way?


Comments

  • #2
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Just keep looking for a suitable job and then change.


  • #3
    fergalr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    You say you are in the field 3 years, but what does this mean?
    I'm assuming you a developer? And you have some previous development experience or qualifications?

    If so, then disregard the advice you got on the other thread.

    If you are skilled enough to work as a developer, and have previous experience, then start looking for another job immediately. (It'd be a bit more complicated if you are transitioning from a non-developer role).

    If you get asked in an interview why you are leaving your job so soon, tell them that you were hired as a python developer, but then your skills weren't used; they should understand.

    Its often easier for find a decent new job when you currently have one - and its your current employers fault that you are in this situation, if they hired you under false promises - so don't quit the current job while you look.

    But do not wait an extended period of time in a job where your skills aren't being used - that won't help your career.
    Its your employers fault if you quit, if you've discussed your concerns with them, and if they won't help after they basically did 'bait and switch'.


  • #4
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    fergalr wrote: »

    If you get asked in an interview why you are leaving your job so soon, tell them that you were hired as a python developer, but then your skills weren't used; they should understand.

    Don't do that.

    Use the usual response of that you are looking for new challenges.


  • #5
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    fergalr wrote: »
    You say you are in the field 3 years, but what does this mean?
    I'm assuming you a developer? And you have some previous development experience or qualifications?

    I have a Computer Science degree and for my old employer I held two different roles:

    Development role for two years but I wasn't doing anything massive here just small bug fixes and some scripting.

    Then for 6 months I was in support but I spent of lot of time automating tasks with scripts in Shell and Perl and more advanced stuff with Java.
    fergalr wrote: »
    If so, then disregard the advice you got on the other thread.

    If you are skilled enough to work as a developer, and have previous experience, then start looking for another job immediately. (It'd be a bit more complicated if you are transitioning from a non-developer role).

    This is what I am afraid of as for the last few years while I have had a job title of a developer I haven't been doing out and out development. I fear I may have to take a cut in salary to get the experience I am looking for.
    fergalr wrote: »
    If you get asked in an interview why you are leaving your job so soon, tell them that you were hired as a python developer, but then your skills weren't used; they should understand.

    Its often easier for find a decent new job when you currently have one - and its your current employers fault that you are in this situation, if they hired you under false promises - so don't quit the current job while you look.

    But do not wait an extended period of time in a job where your skills aren't being used - that won't help your career.
    Its your employers fault if you quit, if you've discussed your concerns with them, and if they won't help after they basically did 'bait and switch'.

    Yeah I was thinking along the same lines my only concern was that I may look like I failed my probation during my time here if I left before my 6 months probation period was up.


  • #6
    fergalr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Don't do that.

    Use the usual response of that you are looking for new challenges.

    I don't know; ok, take everything on case by case basis based on how the interview is going...


    But someone looking at the CV is going to wonder why the candidate are changing jobs after 2/3 months. Its a reasonable issue to ask about.

    If the candidate goes with a stock, but meaningless, 'looking for new challenges', then what does that mean? It basically communicates that the candidate is saying "Im not going to tell you why Im changing jobs". Does that mean the candidate is salary hopping and will leave this job after three months? Or does this mean the candidate is on the verge of being fired?


    The answer might be acceptable, but it leaves a question mark. It might be best to just level with the prospective employer; if they have been a developer themselves, they should understand.


    You take a risk either way, but I would err on the side of just giving the truth. In this case, the truth is a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. There's a value to being honest, and to coming across as honest.

    There's also a value - a bit like poker - to 'finding out where you are'. Send the signal that you are a professional, and while you'll do a good job and be flexible, you value your time, and if they are looking for someone to exploit, you'll walk. This means they won't hire you if they intend to do the same thing to you.


    But the right course in this case depends on a lot of variables I can't see - where the OP is in their career - how well they interview - what sort of rapport they have, etc etc.


    What do you think about this, Chrome? Am I missing something? Or being naive?


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  • #7
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I would tell them, new challenges just sounds like lying/avoiding the question, a nonsense answer after less than two months work.


  • #8
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    fergalr wrote: »
    I don't know; ok, take everything on case by case basis based on how the interview is going...


    But someone looking at the CV is going to wonder why the candidate are changing jobs after 2/3 months. Its a reasonable issue to ask about.

    If the candidate goes with a stock, but meaningless, 'looking for new challenges', then what does that mean? It basically communicates that the candidate is saying "Im not going to tell you why Im changing jobs". Does that mean the candidate is salary hopping and will leave this job after three months? Or does this mean the candidate is on the verge of being fired?


    The answer might be acceptable, but it leaves a question mark. It might be best to just level with the prospective employer; if they have been a developer themselves, they should understand.




    You take a risk either way, but I would err on the side of just giving the truth. In this case, the truth is a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. There's a value to being honest, and to coming across as honest.

    There's also a value - a bit like poker - to 'finding out where you are'. Send the signal that you are a professional, and while you'll do a good job and be flexible, you value your time, and if they are looking for someone to exploit, you'll walk. This means they won't hire you if they intend to do the same thing to you.


    But the right course in this case depends on a lot of variables I can't see - where the OP is in their career - how well they interview - what sort of rapport they have, etc etc.


    What do you think about this, Chrome? Am I missing something? Or being naive?

    It's very hard to take that tact without sounding like someone who has the phrase "that's not my job" in their vocab. Any whiff of that when I interview someone is a huge red flag. On mobile so will post again tomorrow.

    In the cold light of day:

    I've actually changed my mind on this a bit, and think the OP should wait it out. They are essentially a junior and have not been in the job very long. I've had positions where it took about 3 months for any decent work to start coming my way.

    Also this time should be used as an investigation phase for the OP. Read all the code you can, learn the internal systems, show motivation.

    This line from the original post also confuses me

    "Due to the rest of my team not being developers they take on work to suit their skill set which leaves no development work"

    OP do you mean that they actually are developers?? :confused:


  • #9
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    This line from the original post also confuses me

    "Due to the rest of my team not being developers they take on work to suit their skill set which leaves no development work"

    OP do you mean that they actually are developers?? :confused:

    None of them know OOP even their job titles aren't dev.

    What I meant by that was their skill set is knowledge in the 3rd party application, database knowledge or project management so they take on work to reflect this. So what happens is anything that would be considered development is thrown over to London as I don't know Python or the application as well as them and I cannot see how the cycle is going to be broken.


  • #10
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    done4now wrote: »
    None of them know OOP even their job titles aren't dev.

    What I meant by that was their skill set is knowledge in the 3rd party application, database knowledge or project management so they take on work to reflect this. So what happens is anything that would be considered development is thrown over to London as I don't know Python or the application as well as them and I cannot see how the cycle is going to be broken.

    Ah that extra bit of information is important and definitely makes me think that this is just an artifact of being new. You mentioned it was a large multinational which will always compound this problem.

    Who internally have you spoken to about your concerns OP?


  • #11
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Ah that extra bit of information is important and definitely makes me think that this is just an artifact of being new. You mentioned it was a large multinational which will always compound this problem.

    Who internally have you spoken to about your concerns OP?

    I brought it up with my new manager when I was over in London this month and he said he doesn't know when I will see development. This guy is new to the team as well so he is trying to get up to speed as well but he now has 15 people working under him which I am second last on the corporate ladder so I am guessing my concerns are pretty low on his agenda.


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  • #12
    John_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    I was in that situation before. I moved after 3 months and when I was asked why I was moving in the interview, I was honest and it obviously wasn't an issue because I got the job.

    The market is very good for developers at the minute so you'll probably walk into a new job. Do it now - you gave your current employer the chance and they have not delivered.


  • #13
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    John_Mc wrote: »
    I was in that situation before. I moved after 3 months and when I was asked why I was moving in the interview, I was honest and it obviously wasn't an issue because I got the job.

    The market is very good for developers at the minute so you'll probably walk into a new job. Do it now - you gave your current employer the chance and they have not delivered.

    Baby and bathwater come to mind...


  • #14
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    done4now wrote: »
    I brought it up with my new manager when I was over in London this month and he said he doesn't know when I will see development. This guy is new to the team as well so he is trying to get up to speed as well but he now has 15 people working under him which I am second last on the corporate ladder so I am guessing my concerns are pretty low on his agenda.

    Do you have access to a bug tracker or similar where you could proactively pick up some work?


  • #15
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    I forgot to say that I also mentioned it to the scrum master of the London team when I was over.
    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Do you have access to a bug tracker or similar where you could proactively pick up some work?

    I have no viability on how they (the London team) track bugs I know we have a product backlog but this is normally big pieces of work that product owner use and we will take only two of these items for a whole team take into a sprint for two weeks.

    But I can see where you are coming from and at the moment I am trying to automate so manual tasks my team does in Python to give me something constructive to work on.


  • #16
    angryInch
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭angryInch


    If I was you I really would think about looking for another role.

    I have interviewed about 20 people in the last couple of months for a variety of developer roles, and it is frightening to see the amount of people who consider themselves senior (by virtue of years spent working) but have spent too long in a company where they have not being doing any real development (by 'real' I mean design/working on commercial systems and having an involvement in how these systems work and are put together).

    Its very easy to stay in a job waiting for better experience/work, and then realise too late that it's not going to happen (or even worse, not realise how poor quality the work was until you go looking for another role and nobody will hire you).

    Working for a multinational where you are a single junior dev in a remote office I would see as not being an ideal situation, because as a junior dev you really need senior people to work with closely so you can develop your skills. That, coupled with your experience's so far, would definitely have me looking elsewhere, no need to do anything rash, but definitely keep an eye out, and do an interview if you spot a role that sounds good.

    As for what you will say to perspective interviewees about your reason for leaving, I would just be honest, say that you took the role on the understanding that you would be working as a developer, but you have yet to do any real amount of development.
    As an interviewer I would not look on this as a bad thing, in fact, if you sounded like a someone I would hire, I may even look on it as a positive that you were smart enough to spot you were not going to get good experience where you were.
    A lot of the best junior dev's that I have interviewed have cited "lack of good work" in their current role as a reason for leaving. It tends to be the better dev's that spot that they need to expand their skills (even better if they can articulate exactly what they need from a new job).
    This is not to say that that someone laving because of "lack of good work" is always a good dev, but that's what the interview is for, to figure out the bluffer from the genuinely good developer!


  • #17
    kryptonmight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭kryptonmight


    Regarding telling them why you are changing jobs so soon I would go with the truth or a slightly modified version of it.

    A few years back I started a job and rapidly realised it was a mistake and grew to hate it by the second. They also wanted me to lead the testing effort and be in charge of it all which isn't what I was expecting or wanted. I managed to get an interview elsewhere and they asked why I was looking to leave my current job so soon. I just said the new job was more test management than hands on testing and the latter was what interested me, not management. It was a slight embellishment on my part but at the same time, not really.

    I agree that the new challenges thing sounds waffly and a tad unbelievable seeing you are just in the door.

    I'd go with something along the lines of that the job isn't what was advertised/offerred and while you like the people and the company, working <insert preferred job thing here> is what you want to work at and that you have asked and its become clear that it isn't an option in your current place.

    All the best.


  • #18
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    Just to give an update on this.

    So I decided that I should move job last month, so one week I was writing up my CV and looking at other jobs then the next week I was gathering requirements for a greenfield project that has been estimated to take 6 months to complete.

    I think my manager picked up on that I was looking at jumping ship after having my EOY review with him as this project came out of no where.

    Only problem is the lack of a senior developer on the project as its me and a database developer working on it but we are borrowing a developer from the London team who has built a similar project for the start of the project and the business are aware of that fact that we are newbies. There are also other guys in London I can ask for help who are under my manager.

    I know its going to pretty stressful and a big ask but it looks like it will be great experience for me.


  • #19
    done4now
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭done4now


    So this project is coming to an end in a few weeks time and my manager has told me I will be going back to doing SSIS and configuration changes (stuff I was doing before taking up this project) for at least a few months (4-6 months). The work in the pipe line is just to refactor 3 standalone projects into one.

    My manager said the business decided the projects and instead of reinventing the wheel we have to build upon the SSIS framework for the projects the business prioritise and there is no Python work in that.

    While I am happy enough at the company but I wont be if I am back doing that work.

    So I am wondering what should I do? Should I start looking for other roles?


  • #20
    fergalr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    This project you did - before it started, you said "I know its going to pretty stressful and a big ask but it looks like it will be great experience for me."

    You also said it would take 6 months to do, and now it sounds like here you are, finishing it, <5 months later.
    In software development terms, that sounds like pretty good going.


    So, if you want to stay, stay, but if you want to go, it sounds like you'll be in a good position.

    Most roles out there have more and less appealing parts. You spend some of most jobs doing unglamorous but necessary tasks - necessary for the business requirements, as your boss says. There's got to be some quid-pro-quo there for a business to function.

    At the same time, you've got to look out for your own career; no one else will; and if you aren't developing, you are regressing; thats just the way of this industry.

    Can't really advise on how to balance those two things in this specific case: up to you.
    I'd probably go if I felt I wasn't being challenged, or that, long term, my skills were regressing.


  • #21
    bpmurray
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    If you're asking, you clearly want to leave. The market is good, so just go while the experience of that last project is fresh - if you don't you'll never forgive yourself!


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