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Is the world ending?

24

Comments

  • #32
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    Danno wrote: »
    Alot of truth in what you say drunkenmonkey. I remember in the late 80s and early 90s the pubs were teeming with custom in these rural parts with the bhoys on the dole and getting a few cash-in-handers on the side to get the few pints in.

    Good days them were! Everybody went to the local hurling matches, kids played on the streets, everybody helped with the tidy towns competitions etc... Community was evident everywhere.

    However, with the pint hittin €4 a pop now I doubt the pubs will ever be the same again especially with the cheap cans in the offys. People are riddled with mortgages and are working overtime, commuting more so the community is fooked.



    Yeah I say start with the local region and get that straight and hopefully the rest of the country will go together

    Buts its a good idea to keep a wary oye on the big piture as the gombeen men who are in power go to EU and learn new ideas how to fook us with new staeth taxxes so we end up working extra hours and comuting extra distances just to keep afloat


    drunkmonkey wrote: »


    snip...

    I hope our Goverment get's it together and starts really winning in foreign investment at a much accelerated rate......this might involve a tiff with the EU but at the end of the day it's all about TU Fein Is Me Fein not Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber Europeans...

    The housing market is fooked but that needs to happen, the goverment should have never let it get out of control in such a manner, it was reckless managing of our Economy....

    snip....

    This government comes mostly from the previous one and mostly from the one before that and that was when Charlie was in charge off it

    The policy Charily had was ROI needs to tighten its belt while Charlie lived it up

    and the Charley clones dressed in yellow babling innocence at tribinals came from that system

    which begat the new one Cowen who did minister of Finance the well trodden path that Bertie proved is lucrative


    Now we know Cowen has his eye on the big golden egg and wants to carve it up and use it all up so that there will be nothing left in the kitty after Cowen is gone

    reference this thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055370522

    And whats the big golden egg yet to be raided
    Why of course its the 20 billion Euro retiremnt fund that civil servants and others have invested into for the last fourty years

    And when the old go to retire in 10 or twenty years there will be nothing left in the kitty and Cowen will be forgoten like Charlie was ( may he ... in .... for the disfavores he did to Ireland and screw Bertie for having givin Charlie a state funeral) and you hope this lot will find solutions

    what planet do you live on

    20% of the Irish live in poverty earing less than 15,000 euro a year

    Put you head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye if this government is your hope

    The government wont lose their pensions but everybody else will if you let them :pac::pac::pac::pac:


    Become involved with the keeping an eye on the who is doing what that is not good for Ireland do your best to stop them usualy through media or local politics then the tide might be turned back in Irelands favor

    But the real heros in todays ROI are the farmers and the fishermen who appose the Shell company using its contracts written in secret rooms which steal the irish kids future

    Derry


  • #33
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Derry, could you talk some, you know, Economics? This isn't a politics forum.


  • #34
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    leninbenjamin wrote: »
    you mean the kind of socialism that nearly bankrupted the country and left us decades behind our European counterparts in terms of development while doing little to solve the problem of poverty?

    wise up man. Dev's ideals are dead and thank f*ck for that.
    Surely capitalism isnt much different, its based on the exploitation of cheap labour / material from the poorer countries of the world, thats why we 'benefitted' we were poor, now were not, and the MNC boat sets sail to the south.

    With co-operation, socialism is the better alternative for a country like Ireland which has no natural resources (whatever we had has been sold), im not much of a left-winger to be honest, but capitalism is a temporary fix for a vulnerable country like Ireland, we're not Switzerland or Norway. I feel people need a wake up call, and that this economic turmoil will do Irish society a whole world of good. To be honest id love to see the return of the days when we didnt have much money in our pockets so we'd no longer see money as the be all and end all of life. Capitalism is a disease, and a sly one.

    Ireland hasnt even gotten used to money before its already starting to dry up, were not cut out for capitalism, just look at how are society is reacting... as a unit we really are 'a lavatory attendent who recently won the lottery'


  • #35
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    The main thing I'm worried about is stagflation - no faster way to wipe out your middle class, and then its only a hop skip and a jump to corporate feudalism.
    that is a scary prospect, makes you think about it more when the world goes from booming to reeling in under a decade


  • #36
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Lads a simple yes or no would have sufficed

    :p


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  • #37
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Surely capitalism isnt much different, its based on the exploitation of cheap labour / material from the poorer countries of the world, thats why we 'benefitted' we were poor, now were not, and the MNC boat sets sail to the south.

    With co-operation, socialism is the better alternative for a country like Ireland which has no natural resources (whatever we had has been sold), im not much of a left-winger to be honest, but capitalism is a temporary fix for a vulnerable country like Ireland, we're not Switzerland or Norway. I feel people need a wake up call, and that this economic turmoil will do Irish society a whole world of good. To be honest id love to see the return of the days when we didnt have much money in our pockets so we'd no longer see money as the be all and end all of life. Capitalism is a disease, and a sly one.

    Ireland hasnt even gotten used to money before its already starting to dry up, were not cut out for capitalism, just look at how are society is reacting... as a unit we really are 'a lavatory attendent who recently won the lottery'

    hang on, now you're blaming Capitalism for Ireland's new money snobbery? big leap of faith and one that has little to do with economics.

    it's also funny how people harp on about how wonderful the 70s and 80s with their high public spending were... the people who lived back then didn't seem to think so. ever remember a thing called emigration? the thing that broke up so many families and caused so much hardship for people?


  • #38
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    With co-operation, socialism is the better alternative for a country like Ireland which has no natural resources .... im not much of a left-winger to be honest ... Capitalism is a disease, and a sly one.

    Are you sure you're not much of a left winger....


  • #39
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    nesf wrote: »
    Are you sure you're not much of a left winger....
    To me, the left and right wing ideologies are flawed in my opinion, doesnt national socialist and socialist economy hold many similarities to be at the opposite end of the spectrum?

    Perhaps your just finding it unusual to see a person hate capitalism who isnt a guevara flouting 'lefty'...

    Ireland was happier without all the money it has now, my parents say that, along with most older people I spoke to. We need a wake up call, not in the form of an alarm, but a mallet across the head. You probably feel we cant be happy nor can society be vibrant without plenty of money. I dont see too many smiley facers when I walk down the street to be honest, although we might blame the weather :(

    About emigration, well its all we have known, and in my opinion, looking at our country, its all we might ever know. Can you see the possibility of an exodus to OZ (if they'd have us), its not a too distant prospect.


  • #40
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    Danno wrote: »
    Alot of truth in what you say drunkenmonkey. I remember in the late 80s and early 90s the pubs were teeming with custom in these rural parts with the bhoys on the dole and getting a few cash-in-handers on the side to get the few pints in.

    Good days them were! Everybody went to the local hurling matches, kids played on the streets, everybody helped with the tidy towns competitions etc... Community was evident everywhere.

    However, with the pint hittin €4 a pop now I doubt the pubs will ever be the same again especially with the cheap cans in the offys. People are riddled with mortgages and are working overtime, commuting more so the community is fooked.
    that talks leaves most 'modern' irish people seething.

    they'll say 'and what was the national debt in that period' etc...

    Its great to hear people reminisce :)


  • #41
    Evangelion
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Evangelion


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    To me, the left and right wing ideologies are flawed in my opinion, doesnt national socialist and socialist economy hold many similarities to be at the opposite end of the spectrum?

    Perhaps your just finding it unusual to see a person hate capitalism who isnt a guevara flouting 'lefty'...

    Ireland was happier without all the money it has now, my parents say that, along with most older people I spoke to. We need a wake up call, not in the form of an alarm, but a mallet across the head. You probably feel we cant be happy nor can society be vibrant without plenty of money. I dont see too many smiley facers when I walk down the street to be honest, although we might blame the weather :(

    About emigration, well its all we have known, and in my opinion, looking at our country, its all we might ever know. Can you see the possibility of an exodus to OZ (if they'd have us), its not a too distant prospect.


    What exactly do you consider left wing?
    What I consider a brief explaination is Socialism is Left, Capitalism is Right. Communism is Extreme Left, Facism is Extreme Right.

    I dont believe for a second people were happier before. The morgages were just as hard to pay. Houses were cheaper, but interest rates were sky high


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  • #42
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    nesf wrote: »
    Eh so the independent highly leveraged investment bank model turns out to be a risky affair... Who'd a thunk it.
    Only a bank could call debt 'leverage'.

    [Kent Brockman]: Professor ... would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?

    [Professor]: Yes I would, Kent.


  • #43
    damnyanks
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    So back on topic and no more looney tunes -

    AIG are in government control taking 80% of the company.

    Barclays bought up the good business areas of Lehman Brothers. I guess they need to just let these companies fail and the good will be bought up.


  • #44
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    To me, the left and right wing ideologies are flawed in my opinion, doesnt national socialist and socialist economy hold many similarities to be at the opposite end of the spectrum?

    If you go far enough to the right you'll meet the same kind of idiots coming around from the left. That doesn't mean there isn't something meaningful between the hard left and hard right though.
    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Perhaps your just finding it unusual to see a person hate capitalism who isnt a guevara flouting 'lefty'...

    I was more getting at you proposing socialism as the better choice, ergo traditionally a left wing position. You don't need to be a frothing at the mouth communist to be on the left wing economically after all similar to how you don't need to be a complete laissez faire leave everything to the market and get rid of the Government pseudo anarchist to be on the right wing.
    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Ireland was happier without all the money it has now, my parents say that, along with most older people I spoke to.

    And I find the exact opposite. Most older people I talk to are happy that their children have far better access to jobs, education and opportunities in general than they ever had. College degrees, and even secondary level education, used to be rare in my family until relatively recently because the parents couldn't afford to keep their kids in education. Plenty of the previous generation had to leave after primary school to work simply because the money wasn't there to keep them fed if they went on to second level. We're a hell of a lot better off than we were. We still have a bunch of problems, don't get me wrong, but health wise and opportunity wise we're doing a lot better than most of our grandparents did.


  • #45
    Kama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭Kama


    Ireland was happier without all the money it has now

    I'm somewhat amazed when I hear depression-nostalgia, usually assume people weren't there for it, or 'mature recollection' has a selective edit...I really doubt cascading failures in global financial markets will lead naturally and cheerfully to some kind of dancing-at-the-crossroads good-ol-times scenario *that* easily.

    Unless of course Irish hedonic utility is perverse hehe, sure we're only happy when we have something to whinge about! :D


  • #46
    CorkJack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭CorkJack


    Geldof and Bono rumoured to be campaiging to forgive the Debt for Fannie , Freddie, Morgan, Lehman
    New promo concert (Live 8 part II) next year.
    Another 3,000% increase in Geldof sales next year.


  • #47
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Elderly people in 'The Old Days Were Better' shocka!


  • #48
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    Evangelion wrote: »
    What exactly do you consider left wing?
    What I consider a brief explaination is Socialism is Left, Capitalism is Right. Communism is Extreme Left, Facism is Extreme Right.

    I dont believe for a second people were happier before. The morgages were just as hard to pay. Houses were cheaper, but interest rates were sky high

    Ive said it before in this forum, but Id like to ask your opinion on the phrase in which contemporary Irish people are 'acting like a lavatory attendant who just won the lotto'

    Do you feel that us Irish, being unused to money, have been over rawed by all the economic upturns over the last decade or so and have came to he point where our materialism / love of money leaves us in a very vulnerable position in the event of an onset serious economic downturn? We are a society living on borrowed money, just like many others, wo what will good auld capitalism do for us now that the banks are shoring up their money? Head to loan sharks? :cool: Perhaps the world is ending:eek:


  • #49
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    what will good auld capitalism do for us now that the banks are shoring up their money?

    What exactly do you mean by capitalism? (I'm trying to figure out exactly what you consider so distasteful)


  • #50
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    Free market economy, etc etc, MNCs lord over governments in both political and economic ways.

    Ah, weve embraced market capitalism to the fore in the past few decades, I just view it as a force that will expire sometime. Capitalism encouraged greed, as it did here in Ireland, and now what is has encouragd is falling back on us.

    Basically, when the rainy day comes, capitalism has no plan B. Or does it? how will we manage if, lets say Dell, HP and Microsoft leave Ireland in the coming year and re-locate to Bombay or that? where will we be then? Our over relience on MNCs (essence of capitalism) just worries me to be honest, as it might worry others these days


  • #51
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    Seems this regime isn't wasting any time to ramp up the killing machine

    Listing to the RTE joe Duffy show
    It seems Seems this regime isn't wasting any time to ramp up the killing machine and the first step in process is starting

    They are getting rid of the agency that highlight poverty a gency that existed since even the bad 1970 era

    Thats a logical thing to do with a killing machine that will deliberatly ramp up poverty and causes cold and starvation to kill of the masses of the stricken poverty classes as surplus to requirements

    Seems the regime learnt a few of Hitlers tricks remove any agency that reports poverty and therefore poverty doesn't exist

    SEEIKE HIEL COWEN RAUS BITTE

    Derry


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  • #52
    damnyanks
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    Llyods have been given government backing to acquire HBOS. They are forgoing the competitive competition due diligence and admitting it has to be done.

    So while the week isnt over I guess banks face the option of government bail out, government support or go bust and get bought up on the cheap.


  • #53
    10goto20
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭10goto20


    damnyanks wrote: »
    Needless to say we are ****ed.

    US is ****ed
    UK is gonna be ****ed
    Spain is ****ed
    Ireland is ****ed

    a lot of change is coming. It's going to be tough. I'd get rid of any debt you have ASAP.

    I don't think Ireland is caught up in the sub prime fiasco. Irish people are sheep. They see turmoil in America and think bugger I better sell all my shares. Makes no sense at all. Same with the housing market. America has a crash so Irish people follow like lemmings. We're not affected by this because we are tied to America....because we're not. We're too backward to keep up with the big boys and for once that will work in our favour. All I see going on in the Irish market are 2 things, a recession in the housing sector and connected industries and the other is people being chicken sh!t and selling everything they have because sky news puts up a big scary headline which has absolutely nothing to do with Ireland.


  • #54
    damnyanks
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    Why doesnt it make sense?

    You you seen the decline in global markets in the last year? Irelands problems are not sub prime but a result of sub prime and what has unfolded over the last 14 months.


  • #55
    Kama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭Kama


    Free market economy, etc etc, MNCs lord over governments in both political and economic ways.

    Unsure if this is a pointless aside on definitional issues, but I'm a bit of a pedant hehe. It helps to place a prefix on the word capitalism, then other folks know what you mean. What Leif (I think) means is corporate or corporate-oligopolistic capitalism on the US model, where since the mid 70's productivity gains have gone increasingly into speculative capital markets and far less into income growth for everyone else, which remained pretty stagnant. Lots of derivatives and shadow banking on top, and a crumbling material infrastructure and a 'lean' capitalist squeeze on the middle class, heavy debt and overleveraging in lieu of income for everyone else. An obviously unsustainable bubble that kept being inflated.

    Imo this does seem discredited, but I'm dubious that this necessarily the end-all; another model or approach seems likely to develop in response to the context. Now, the 'end of the world' may be a massive reconfiguration, or a smaller 'correction', or as a extreme case a legitimation crisis similar to the Depression after a full run on shadow banking; rather than 'oh noes teh wordls are endings' I'm curious what scenarios people think likely, and how they would weight them?


  • #56
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Ah, weve embraced market capitalism to the fore in the past few decades, I just view it as a force that will expire sometime. Capitalism encouraged greed, as it did here in Ireland, and now what is has encouragd is falling back on us.

    Personally I think greed is present regardless of what kind of political system you have, it's naive to think that it disappears in socialist systems.

    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Basically, when the rainy day comes, capitalism has no plan B. Or does it? how will we manage if, lets say Dell, HP and Microsoft leave Ireland in the coming year and re-locate to Bombay or that? where will we be then? Our over relience on MNCs (essence of capitalism) just worries me to be honest, as it might worry others these days

    Rainy days come and go, the thing is that we have to stay competitive (this doesn't just mean low wages as people seem to think it does), it means finding an area that we have an advantage in and focussing on it. We can't compete on low cost manufacturing with the Far East, we can compete on high technology manufacturing and financial services and in terms of location (transportation costs are only going to become more of a factor in terms of location which means that our position in the EU becomes even more valuable). Foreign Direct Investment is something that we (as a very small country) can disproportionately benefit from. Most MNCs can't just pack up and leave on a whim, they normally have invested too much on infrastructure and personnel training here to just leave suddenly without incurring a big loss.


  • #57
    eamonnm79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭eamonnm79


    nesf wrote: »
    Most MNCs can't just pack up and leave on a whim, they normally have invested too much on infrastructure and personnel training here to just leave suddenly without incurring a big loss.

    The IDA provided most of the Infrastructure (land and buildings) for the MNC's
    As regards Personnell training, Unless the jobs are very high on the value chain then youcan always train new personnel. Of course MNCs have switching costs but they were clever to make sure the costs would be as small as possible. They would have learned from when they moved here! :)
    Our corporate tax rate is our best chance of hanging on to jobs.


  • #58
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    eamonnm79 wrote: »
    The IDA provided most of the Infrastructure (land and buildings) for the MNC's

    The IDA didn't provide the machinery inside those buildings though which is more of a factor these days for high level manufacturing which we have a fair bit of which was more of what I was getting at. Look at Intel for instance, it's tied itself to Ireland for a fair while by building that new fabrication plant.
    eamonnm79 wrote: »
    As regards Personnell training, Unless the jobs are very high on the value chain then youcan always train new personnel. Of course MNCs have switching costs but they were clever to make sure the costs would be as small as possible. They would have learned from when they moved here! :)
    Our corporate tax rate is our best chance of hanging on to jobs.

    Corporation tax is definitely a big factor but the Personnel training can't be ignored simply because we've moved up the value added chain over the past two decades. The days when this country was only home to low level manufacturing MNCs are gone, thankfully, and with them the cost of moving business out of here has risen. It's an on-going transition but it's the only way we can go with our cost base being the way it is.


  • #59
    Celia Obnoxious Income
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭ Celia Obnoxious Income


    nesf wrote: »
    Rainy days come and go, the thing is that we have to stay competitive (this doesn't just mean low wages as people seem to think it does), it means finding an area that we have an advantage in and focussing on it. We can't compete on low cost manufacturing with the Far East, we can compete on high technology manufacturing and financial services and in terms of location (transportation costs are only going to become more of a factor in terms of location which means that our position in the EU becomes even more valuable). Foreign Direct Investment is something that we (as a very small country) can disproportionately benefit from. Most MNCs can't just pack up and leave on a whim, they normally have invested too much on infrastructure and personnel training here to just leave suddenly without incurring a big loss.

    Yeah, nice to be thinking like that, but remember that India are making vast inroads in the IT sector, churning out thousands upon thousands of graduates each year, and that seems to be the area we, as a nation, can diverge in most. Sadly for us, its not the textile industry which is propping up India.

    Hopefully im wrong, but I can see India flying past us within the next decade. What do we do, follow in their footsteps?


  • #60
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Yeah, nice to be thinking like that, but remember that India are making vast inroads in the IT sector, churning out thousands upon thousands of graduates each year, and that seems to be the area we, as a nation, can diverge in most. Sadly for us, its not the textile industry which is propping up India.

    Yeah but with the rise of India comes the creation of new markets. It isn't a zero sum game where there's only so much trade to go around. Other countries growing stronger is a good thing for us, though might not seem that way initially. The rise of China brought a new market for Irish dairy products, which are high quality goods with a good international brand, if you want a local easy to grasp example. Our competitors are also our export markets generally, more export markets means more jobs to be had making stuff to export to them etc.
    Celia Obnoxious Income wrote: »
    Hopefully im wrong, but I can see India flying past us within the next decade. What do we do, follow in their footsteps?

    Eh have you really take a serious look at the country's economy? It has serious, serious problems and has a lot of sort out domestically before it'll be able to catch up to China, never mind Western Europe. Per capita GDP there, while it has grown strongly is still less than a tenth of ours.


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  • #61
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    nesf wrote: »
    Eh have you really take a serious look at the country's economy? It has serious, serious problems and has a lot of sort out domestically before it'll be able to catch up to China, never mind Western Europe. Per capita GDP there, while it has grown strongly is still less than a tenth of ours.

    from talking to people who work in MNCs they are also quite disparaging at the standard of these Indian graduates. i know of one high profile company that replaced a few very highly paid specialist engineers with a team of lower wage Indian graduates and is really suffering because of it. A move that cut only a few hundred thousand from their wage bill is potentially costing millions in inefficiencies. And also, from talking to friends who've spent time in India and seen first hand their universities, I'm really led to believe their graduate production isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm not saying it isn't a threat, but there's no reason why we can't hold on to our competitive advantage in this area.

    To do so, however will require a severe kick up the arse to our govts. Our own graduate production system isn't as good as it could be. we're too focused on numbers and not quality for one thing. There are also huge failings at second level at making the sciences (especially computer science) attractive to students. I find it extremely ironic that throughout this whole recession highly specialised companies, like Havok, are failing to get the high standard of workers they need from our own system. Yet the sciences are still hugely under subscribed...


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