NIR DBSO Fiasco

Grandeeod · 25-10-2014 9:48pm #1

Can anyone explain the 10 million quid fiasco with the DBSO NIR bought from Anglia trains. Supposed to run with the Gatwick sets but only arrived as they were decomissioned.

25-10-2014 10:27pm

I grilled them on it once when I was on a visit to York Road. They told me that they didn't have the economies of scale that IE do when it came to loco maintenance. Didn't really answer my question, so why did you bother buying the thing in the first place?

Very curious as to what DCDR will do with it.

goingnowhere · 25-10-2014 11:27pm

Firstly it certainly wasn't a multi million pound undertaking

With the right cable it should be possible to run push pull with the C class or the 141 class with a small mod on the loco to add a trail valve

25-10-2014 11:30pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Firstly it certainly wasn't a multi million pound undertaking

With the right cable it should be possible to run push pull with the C class or the 141 class with a small mod on the loco to add a trail valve

That was one thing I never established, whether the system was AAR as per IE, or TDM as per UK practice. If AAR then it would work with any of the supported IE locos.

metrovick001 · 26-10-2014 12:22am

I was under the impression that it used the time division multiplexer which made running it with one of the GMs in pushpull mode impossible. It would have required rewiring to the 27 wire AAR system to work. Its a pity as those Gatwicks were nice vehicles & it would have been nice to see the 111s in run 8!

Karsini wrote: »

That was one thing I never established, whether the system was AAR as per IE, or TDM as per UK practice. If AAR then it would work with any of the supported IE locos.

goingnowhere · 26-10-2014 12:49am

It's AAR but using the SR 36 way cable

roundymac · 26-10-2014 11:09am

Have the Gatwicks been scrapped now or whats the story, sorry for going slightly off thread.

Captain Chaos · 26-10-2014 11:40am

roundymac wrote: »

Have the Gatwicks been scrapped now or whats the story, sorry for going slightly off thread.

They are not scrapped yet, NIR are are doing what IE did to the Mk3s. Letting them rot for a few years first. They have been used as "barrier wagons" by GMs for hauling 80s and 450s for scrapping a few times though.

ClovenHoof · 26-10-2014 9:42pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Can anyone explain the 10 million quid fiasco with the DBSO NIR bought from Anglia trains. Supposed to run with the Gatwick sets but only arrived as they were decomissioned.

10 million can't be correct. Sounds way too much.

Grandeeod · 26-10-2014 11:17pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

10 million can't be correct. Sounds way too much.

That's what it cost to buy, refurb and ship....and years late.

ClovenHoof · 27-10-2014 1:30am

Grandeeod wrote: »

That's what it cost to buy, refurb and ship....and years late.

Jesus that is shocking.

GM228 · 27-10-2014 5:08pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

That's what it cost to buy, refurb and ship....and years late.

10 million is way off! The total cost of purchase, work carried out and delivery was in the region of around £200,000 from what I remember, still big money for nothing!

Something however nearer to your first figure is IEs tamper 710-this cost millions and never turned a wheel in service, now it's stored in Cork as far as I know, what happened there I'd love to know!

GM228

Grandeeod · 27-10-2014 5:36pm

GM228 wrote: »

10 million is way off! The total cost of purchase, work carried out and delivery was in the region of around £200,000 from what I remember, still big money for nothing!

Something however nearer to your first figure is IEs tamper 710-this cost millions and never turned a wheel in service, now it's stored in Cork as far as I know, what happened there I'd love to know!

GM228

I was quoting from this.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73814-nir-gatwick-preservation/

corktina · 27-10-2014 7:36pm

a bit unsubstantiated surely

Grandeeod · 27-10-2014 7:51pm

corktina wrote: »

a bit unsubstantiated surely

Yeah probably. I actually had never heard of the NIR DBSO issue and came across it by accident and that was the only figure I saw across lots of articles. But the point of the thread still stands. It never entered service.

GM228 · 27-10-2014 7:59pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yeah probably. I actually had never heard of the NIR DBSO issue and came across it by accident and that was the only figure I saw across lots of articles. But the point of the thread still stands. It never entered service.

I think the DBSO was purchased much the same way as IE got their last batch of 22000s, glorious plans for route/service expansion, then it all crashed! Lets face it one set of coaches in a railcar dominated small network didn't stand much of a chance did they!

NIR were to modify the DBSO to work with the 111s and fit through 27 pin AAR cables to the Gatwicks and do a brake mod on their GMs to enable it's operation. All in all there wasn't a huge amount required to complete the project - would have been nice had it been completed.

GM228

goingnowhere · 27-10-2014 10:36pm

The brake mod on the 111's is a fairly simple job to ensure the air brakes on the loco can be triggered through the the train pipe and not the locomotive brake pipe (green). Its called a trail valve and is fairly common aka the MU-2A on a 201.

The DBSO required some rework in the sense the Gatwicks use SR 750V DC ETH and not 1000V AC/DC as the DBSO would have used before. It also needed minor mods to take the wider bogies (presume Translink supplied) and moving the buffers etc to meet the Irish gauge

Then the cab needed the GM control desk, radios, TPWS, AWS, OTMR etc

The finished DBSO is actually wired to use the SR 36 way MU socket already fitted to the gatwicks so avoiding the need to modify them, only need a custom cable to patch the 27 way AAR to 36 way SR whatever way they wired it up.

The C class in Downpatrick should be good to run with it, C class air compressor isn't fabulous so a single coach should be workable

27-10-2014 10:40pm

I didn't know that the C had air brakes at all, thought it was vacuum only.

goingnowhere · 27-10-2014 10:52pm

Karsini wrote: »

I didn't know that the C had air brakes at all, thought it was vacuum only.

It has a full set of air brake pipes fitted, in theory it will MU with any AAR locomotive, apparently the C class were used to drag DART units around in the early 1980's

27-10-2014 10:54pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

It has a full set of air brake pipes fitted, in theory it will MU with any AAR locomotive, apparently the C class were used to drag DART units around in the early 1980's

Hmm, interesting. Would also be interesting to see a C propelling 6105 in that case!

GM228 · 28-10-2014 2:45pm

Karsini wrote: »

I didn't know that the C had air brakes at all, thought it was vacuum only.

As far as I know the Cs were fitted with air brakes for use on the mixed brake air/vacuum mail trains and to enable greater flexabity.

At the same time they were fitted with the AAR and independent brake pipes to enable multiple working within the class and also with the 121s and 141/181s. I don't think multiple working was common but I did see a picture of a C in multiple with a 141 before.

GM228

28-10-2014 3:23pm

Yeah they could definitely run in multiple with a 121/141/181. They could also run in multiple with each other but this was uncommon due to a lack of AAR cables. When a C ran in multiple with a GM, they used the cable from the GM.

end of the road · 28-10-2014 3:39pm

GM228 wrote: »

I think the DBSO was purchased much the same way as IE got their last batch of 22000s, glorious plans for route/service expansion!

and even with the amount of them we have it seems to be hard to find capacity for certain routes when needed. (oh yes i forgot) "cost cutting at the expence of the passengers"

goingnowhere · 28-10-2014 3:46pm

Given the layout in Downpatrick a C+DBSO looks like a good deal, be great to see it working. I think 226 is not setup for PP in Carrick so hopefully 231 is still wired up.

Downpatrick has a former 70 class trailer which would be air braked so could tag along.

There was provision in the DBSO modifications to have a generator fitted.

Hungerford · 28-10-2014 10:16pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Can anyone explain the 10 million quid fiasco with the DBSO NIR bought from Anglia trains. Supposed to run with the Gatwick sets but only arrived as they were decomissioned.

Firstly, as pointed out by others, the overall cost wasn't anything like £10 million. IIRC, the DBSO plan was conceived before NIR were allowed to purchase the Class 4000 trains - I think the assumption was that the DRD would refuse to fund anything much after purchasing the Class 3000s.

Grandeeod · 28-10-2014 11:10pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Firstly, as pointed out by others, the overall cost wasn't anything like £10 million. IIRC, the DBSO plan was conceived before NIR were allowed to purchase the Class 4000 trains - I think the assumption was that the DRD would refuse to fund anything much after purchasing the Class 3000s.

Yeah yeah, slow down on the money aspect, I get it.

So the scenario is similar to the crazy decisions made by IE, due to the disconnect/distrust with the shareholder/Government.

Ex BR MK2s from a scrap yard.
201 class locos.
MK3 Internationals.
MK4s without power cars.
22000s all over the place.
MK3s scrapped.
The push for railcars in general.

Put that all on a blank piece of paper, over the last 20 years and it looks really messed up.

I havent even mentioned the DART stuff.

Money came and it was wasted via bonkers management, Government interference, desperation and a very screwed up approach.

NIR/Translink look stylish in comparison.

30-10-2014 12:20am

GM228 wrote: »

As far as I know the Cs were fitted with air brakes for use on the mixed brake air/vacuum mail trains and to enable greater flexabity.

At the same time they were fitted with the AAR and independent brake pipes to enable multiple working within the class and also with the 121s and 141/181s. I don't think multiple working was common but I did see a picture of a C in multiple with a 141 before.

GM228

Getting back to this, I can't believe I never spotted the air brake pipes on the C. Was looking back at my Downpatrick photos and saw them.

They're notably absent in their Crossley days so it was obviously a retrofit.

30-10-2014 10:49pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Given the layout in Downpatrick a C+DBSO looks like a good deal, be great to see it working. I think 226 is not setup for PP in Carrick so hopefully 231 is still wired up.

The two have mostly the same wiring. The wiring was updated whereby the CIE Diagram and the "as found" wiring were made to match and gaps in the cable tag sequence were filled to make it more logical. The diagram was redrawn on this basis and used for C231's rewire then 226. The two circuits for 6111 to control the loco's exhauster were omitted on both locos. If 6111 reached the point where it was sufficiently restored to work in a train the loco circuits could be reinstated. A somewhat trivial task compared to fixing 6111!

NIR DBSO Fiasco

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