Lack of new routes at Cork airport

who_me wrote: »

That's my understanding too. The DAA took the assets, CAA kept the debt. It should have been one way or the other. I'm still intrigued as to why the CAA voted to accept the debt.

Even apart from that issue - though it's a big one - the notion of one airport being run by a competitor is completely unsound. How did Shannon go independent? Is that a practical alternative for Cork airport?

The taking on of the €113m debt was railroaded through by Michael Martin (YES - him !) in his role as Minister for Enterprise. The CAA board were Mehole appointees, including his long time backer/supporter Humphrey Murphy and his "boy" on the board, Chairman Joe Gantly.

The four worker-directors, Tom O’Neill, Tony O’Connell, Mary O’Halloran and Sean Mac Suibhne, joined by Alf Smiddy, voted against acceptance.

Cork Airport chief executive Pat Keohane, Don Cullinane, Humphrey Murphy, Pat Dalton, and Loretta Glucksman, in contact by phone from America, all voted in favour. Veronica Perdissatt abstained.

The tie resulted in chairman, Joe Gantly, casting the deciding vote to accept.

Enterprise Minister Micheál Martin welcomed the outcome and said he is confident the airport would remain competitive.

“My main priority is to move away from the Dublin operation and set up on our own — people would prefer less debt at the end of the day but it’s a State company and people seem to have missed that point,” he said.

Siptu official John Pearson described the vote as a “purely political act”.

“We were promised in 2003 that we would be debt-free. We bought in to that in good faith.”

This is a slightly flowery explanation

http://www.southernstar.ie/News/FFs-crocodile-tears-over-Cork-Airport-Authority-10072014.htm

Cork - Brussels route is now going to be reinstated from next March.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-brussels-route-to-resume-in-2015-291765.html

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Cork - Brussels route is now going to be reinstated from next March.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-brussels-route-to-resume-in-2015-291765.html

That's just lazy journalism, They have made this a summer only route and suspended it for the winter, as originally announced.

Cork airport does not seem to have any new routes or rising passenger numbers any time soon, its like a less intense repeat of Shannon.

Ryanair said that they are not adding any routes to cork for 2015, but what they didn't mention is that they are removing the year round East Midlands and Vilnius routes and the summer seasonal Bordeaux, Carcassonne, Alicante and Girona routes.

But soothing news may be that the Aer Lingus - Brussles route will continue next summer.

corkonion wrote: »

The number of Ryanair passengers travelling through Cork Airport will fall by 6% this year, they released their passenger figures for the summer period from April to September and said the decision last year to scrap the travel tax has allowed them to carry an extra 648,000 passengers through Irish airports over the six-month period, however these increases are through Dublin, Shannon and Knock airports. Ryanair has reduced passenger numbers through Cork and Kerry.
While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon they have cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high.
Cork Airport is still controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt free, Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of much cheaper charges. In the last month their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.
Ryanair will carry 50,000 less passengers through Cork this year based on last year’s figures and it appears from recent announcements that Aer Lingus figures will also be falling through Cork

We always used Wizzair when they were in Cork to fly to Lithuania, even though we had to pay more, just to try to support the service, because everyone knew this type of extortion was coming with Ryanair.

There's zero chance we are going to use Shannon to fly to Lithuania.
By the time you consider parking, it's cheaper and less hassle to fly Cork to London and fly on from there.

Would anyone in Cork actually fly from Shannon?

Why not just keep the flight in Cork and charge us more per ticket to compensate for Cork's higher fees?

If they want to strike at the DAA, this the wrong way to go about it. They are just hurting their 'would-be' customers.

Carnacalla wrote: »

It is €80 for the most expensive week return flight in February.

That's Shannon to Kaunas, not Shannon to Vilnius.
The cork flight was direct to Vilnius (the Capital).

But anyway, it's €70 to fly Stansted to Kaunas or €63 to fly Stansted to Vilnius return in February.

Add €50 for petrol (or bus) and €30 for car parking. That makes €160 for 1 person or €240 2 people.

How many days are you talking about for €30 parking?
Parking is €9.50 per day in Shannon.

Option 1: €10 for taxi and 0 for parking, from Cork
Option 2: €10 for taxi and 0 for parking, and €40 for Cork to Stansted flights
Option 3: €50 for petrol, €95 for parking and 2 hours travel time each way from Cork to Shannon, and 1 hour train each way from Kaunas to Vilnius

From Cork with a stop in LHR or AMS it is €200 for the cheapest fare in Feburary.

You wouldn't fly from LHR or AMS going to Lithuania.

You can fly direct from Stansted for €63 and most people going to Latvia also used to fly to Vilnius and take a train rather than fly LHR or AMS.
Now they will do Cork to Stansted, Stansted to Riga.

Add € for the Car Parking and it is alot cheaper from Shannon

Most people would only have to pay for parking if they had to travel to Shannon...that's the point.

Compare that with a 1 hour 40mins drive to Shannon.
Alot more sense flying from Shannon, although the other option is there for people wanting to support Cork.

Of course it makes more sense if you're from Clare - no disputing that.

But it doesn't make sense if you're one of the 518,128 people living around the second city.

It's daft to think that a city with that population should have to resort to using a neighbouring airport despite higher overall costs and travel time, because the one they have is little better than a glorified taxi service for London.

Yes of course. If the fare is cheaper or if you cannot get a flight from cork then de faintly.

You're not in Cork tho, I asked if anyone in Cork would fly from Shannon.

I wouldn't have problem with flying from Shannon if the overall cost is cheaper -> I don't have some objection to Shannon itself. Sort out those parking costs and it would become much more viable.

The point is that it's correct that the fare is cheaper, not the overall cost and it's far more hassle.

By flying from Shannon, you're saving €20 on flights, but incurring substantially more in petrol and parking costs, & 2 hour car journey each way

It is around half the journey to get to Shannon than going to Dublin too, and how many people travel to Dublin to fly?

When there was a flight from Cork??
The Dublin route took a huge hit.

This year I flew from cork to go on holidays rather than Shannon. I am from Co.Clare and I'm a big supporter of Shannon. I could of flown from Shannon, I could not of gotten the 10 days i got from cork as it was only once a week flights, It was far more expensive from Shannon and the flight times were not good.

This isn't a support issue tho.
I don't support anyone (I think Nationalism is daft).

This is a "Cork Airport is useless in it's current incarnation issue".

Because they are Ryanair.

It's not just cheaper alternatives tho.
It's also lack of competitors.
If WizzAir started servicing Cork again, Ryanair would be back in Cork despite the higher costs.

I think Ryanair know full well this is going to cost us much more.
But it's a way of building up resentment and compaints against the DAA (and while I agree the DAA is an abomination, I resent being made hostage)

It is simply shocking what has happened with Shannon Airport and Cork Airport. One Airport gets all its debts written off and gets given a huge parcel of state property for free to help subsidise itself forever.
The other is left to compete with this huge state subsidy that means airlines and routes are leaving Cork Airport for Shannon Airport where they don't have to charge any fees because of the huge state aid they received.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Well in that case, the Lithuania flight was not moved to Shannon. It is a different route.

Assuming they've not been misquoted, then they've explicitly said they're moving flights into Shannon from Cork, because the landing charges at Cork Airport are too high.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/10/24/cork-ryanair-passengers-figures-set-fall-year/
While increasing routes through Dublin and Shannon, Ryanair has cut services from Cork saying the charges here are too high. Cork Airport is controlled by the Dublin Airport Authority while Shannon has been made independent and debt-free.
As a result, it can offer attractive landing charges to secure new routes. Ryanair has already switched some of its flights from Cork to Shannon to avail of cheaper charges. In the last month, their Cork to Lithuania flight was moved to Shannon.

8 days parking for €30. New park4less parking makes Shannon's parking the cheapest airport parking in the country. It is €5 per day, not €9.50.

Yep, that's a great improvement, wouldn't deny it, but it's a bit like a reduction in your water charges - it's still E30 we otherwise wouldn't have to pay.
Then combine it with the petrol and travelling time - it's still cheaper and easier to just use the Cork Airport Taxi service to Stansted, which has all the cheapest flights anyway.

What you forgot was flying from Cork-London Stansted.
Min Price €40.

Not forgetting that, I'm factoring that in
10 +40 + 63= 103 Cork/Stansted/Vilnius
50 + 57.99 or 35 (10 day long term park or prebooked) + 80 + 2 hour car journey both ways=Shannon/Kaunas

Flight from Stansted takes off at 17:15, but you need to be at the airport at least 2 hours 30 minutes so that makes the flight from cork landing at 16:10 completely unrealistic. That means that you need to take the earlier 06:40am flight, which means a LONG day in Stansted.

There is 10:30 flight from Cork to Stansted on both Saturday and Sunday.

The 10:30 flight arrives in Stansted at 12:00, which leaves plenty of time for a bite to eat and a casual stroll around the shops to stretch the feet, and still comfortably in advance of the 2hr30m boarding window.

Flight from Vilnius lands at 23:20 every night, so that means either an overnight stay at the airport, or buying a hotel room for the night.

---

Flight from Stansted to kaunas leaves at 07:45, which means you will have to fly to Stansted the night before, which again means an overnight stay at the airport or buying a hotel room for the night.

Flight from Kaunas lands at 07:20 every day, so that makes it impossible to make the flight to cork reasonably. That means waiting until 16:35. Again long day at the airport.

Now that comes to a cost of around €100 to fly from cork, which includes an incredible amount of hassle, and maybe the cost of a hotel room.

You're way overcomplicating this
We're just going to do
Kaunas to Stansted (6:30 - 07:20) [€33], then
Stansted to Cork (08:35 to 10:00) or (12:25 to 13:50)

Considering they're both Ryanair flights, one would assume it would be safe to take the 08:35 flight without worrying about delay, but Ryanair are notorious in this (dis)regard, so we'd do the breakfast/stroll around the shops/buying presents part again, but at least I'll be flying straight home into my bed and not facing into a 2 hour drive.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Have you ever done a Ryanair transfer? 1hours is not enough in stansted. The security lines are pretty long.

I have, I've never had a problem with no baggage, but you're right the lines are long and it wouldn't be feasible with baggage.

We don't take baggage anyway, there is a Lithuanian courier service here who take everything over for you a month in advance, it's much cheaper than taking baggage on the plane.

We'll most likely do this:
Kaunas to Stansted (6:30 - 07:20) [€33], then
Stansted to Cork (08:35 to 10:00) or (12:25 to 13:50)

Carnacalla wrote: »

I agree Ryanair is screwing cork. But the outrage at the loss of routes at cork is far greater the the outrage at the loss of routes at Shannon.

They are, but I don't think they're deliberately setting out to screw Cork, they're trying to tackle the DAA and Cork is collateral damage.

Honestly, I think Ryanair are as exasperated with the situation as anyone.

Regarding the outrage, I haven't paid attention to the situation in Shannon so I can't comment on it, but I work in the Airport Business Park in Cork, so I'm aware this whole situation is having a much bigger (negative) impact than just on the local citizens (how it understandably appears to external observers) - it's damaging our reputation and business prospects on an ongoing basis.
It's not enough to say it's damaging existing businesses, -it's actively discouraging/threatening further investment.

Cork is a nice quiet airport with probably the nicest terminal layout out of all the airport in Ireland.

The new terminal in Cork is nice, but nobody ever seemed to mind the old terminal and the new terminal seems to be the crux of the issue.

I remember the first time I went to Kaunas Airport, it was atrocious, but they have massively revamped it, it looks quite polished now, and they didn't seem to break the bank doing so.

What also is ridiculous is for Cork to have the same Fees as Dublin. That's like Manchester having the same fees as London Heathrow. It just dosnt make sense.

I think most people understand/accept we're in a quagmire and I do think there would be a general acceptance of paying higher fees to try alleviate the situation.

The frustration/ridiculousness is the lack of acknowledgement or unwillingness to tackle the situation... we are somehow left the worst of all options, but nobody seems to be able to unblock it.

I shudder to think what is going to have to happen to Cork Airport before there is some kind of strategy change.

rebs23 wrote: »

Just a thought but is there merit in a complaint to the EU in relation to illegal state aid to Shannon Airport as a result of the state handing over to them the huge property portfolio of Shannon Development and wiping out their debts of over 100 million?
These two aids to Shannon Airport is effectively worth several hundred million euro and added in to the mix is the capitalisation value of the overall assets to secure funding for further development.

Shannon Airport will never see any funds from the Shannon development property. That was made clear.

As for the wiping out of debts, cork may have their debt wiped in the future. Just keep at the government to do it.

The DAA was far harsher to Shannon than it was to cork. They took Aer Rianta which was a big company based at Shannon and used it to build its 'new shiny terminal 2'.

As for the new Transport minister, I personally don't see him doing much while in office.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/aib-chief-duffy-says-proposed-limitations-by-central-bank-on-mortgage-lending-are-right-293397.htmlMeanwhile, Cork Chamber president Gillian Keating accused the Government and Dublin Airport Authority of “handcuffing” Cork Airport and its management team, who had done “Trojan work” to cut costs and make the airport a success.

“Cork Airport and its management team are handcuffed,” said Ms Keating. “They are handcuffed by a failure in this Government’s policy view on Cork Airport. They are handcuffed by the DAA’s position on the debt.”

The airport is saddled with a €100m debt arising from the construction of a new terminal in 2006 at a time when passenger numbers were rising.

Ms Keating added that the Government’s strategy for Cork Airport, as outlined in the National Aviation Policy report, was ad hoc and focused on the opportunities for Dublin and Shannon airports.

.

SNN has always managed to get what it wants, look how long before stop-over was abolished. They go in a fight tooth and nail for what they want.

Carnacalla wrote: »

Completly Disagree. If they always got what they wanted, how did Shannon go from Irelands second largest airport in 2007 with 3.6mil passengers to Irelands third larget in 2013 with 1.4mil a drop of 2.2mil.

Meanwhile cork has went from 3.25mil in 2008 to 2.25mil in 2014. Shannon has lost a hell of alot more than cork.

The only routes shannon has kept over the past few years was The newyork route with united, a couple of uk routes and a handful of holiday routes.

From cork you have access to the major hubs of Amsterdam, London Heathrow and Paris. You also have Munich once a week rather than our bloody memmigen route which is hours outside Munich. You have your Lisbon and Brussles route in the summer, so cork in all fairness isn't doing too bad.

Ryanair can only screw you so much as cork is under partial protection from Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus are not intrested in saving any route from Shannon.



This article is misleading.

Alicante is only operating during the months of June and July.
Bordeaux isn't operating at all next summer.
Carcassonne is again only June and July
FaroIs only 4x weekly during June And July, it is only 3x weekly during the other months.
Girona Is only June and july
Malaga Is 4x weekly during June and July, It is only 2x weekly during the other months
Milan Is only June and July again.
Pisa Is only June and july.

I would suggest SNN took a bigger hit because they dined with O'Leary, and got hit when he pulled out of SNN to teach them a lesson.

The simple fact going back to the original topic here is that Cork is losing out due to the massive State subsidy that was effectively granted to Shannon which included a debt write off of over €100 Million and a property portfolio worth several hundred million euro.
Shannon are therefore able to charge zero or near zero airport charges as a result of this Government intervention to save Shannon and airlines are pulling out of Cork airport to move to Shannon as a result of this.
This is the issue along with continuing Government support to other airports in the province including Kerry and Waterford.
Cork Airport is facing severe and unfair competition as a result of these government decisions.
Let there be fair competition. No amount of spin doctoring can change the facts around the massive state aid/subsidy to Shannon and the impact it is having on Cork Airport.