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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    lmaopml wrote: »
    Wonderfulname you are quite right; people should wait to see the 'wording'. But hey, you can't blame anybody for reading/guessing what is coming down the line no? People talk - it's boards.ie!

    Sincerely, don't even dare to critic Irish mums in relation to the value of their children; Catholic Church or no - you think it's all about 'religion' how foolish, you must think we're idiots - how totally and utterly vastly wrong are you - and even in the case with women who make any decision they deem fit - you are totally out of the loop as regards same.

    Irish 'religious' women and mums support 'women' with charity and love and nothing less, and regard men as equals and nothing more. It's a partnership, but it doesn't negate our support and call for support for those who find themselves in desperate circumstances - we can't judge them - we can only guage our very own failure to support them.

    Is all of this aimed at me or just the first bit - Just to point out, if the rest is, you're preaching, for the most part, to the choir, but I don't see the point in a yes or no discussion here, apart from it being logically and morally unsound, it's not going to get anywhere. Far more interested in how people perceive the grey areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Your opinion is fine and you wont have an abortion. But why do you get to make that decsion for someone else.

    I wouldnt want my girlfriend to ever get an abortion but I'm very much pro choice.

    The same thing as a mother making a choice on behalf of her baby, whether it should live or die! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Your opinion is fine and you wont have an abortion. But why do you get to make that decsion for someone else.

    I wouldnt want my girlfriend to ever get an abortion but I'm very much pro choice.

    The same thing as a mother making a choice on behalf of her baby, whether it should live or die! :rolleyes:


    Which is why the law should be changed about the definition of what is a living human being and what is not.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus



    I wouldnt want my girlfriend to ever get an abortion but I'm very much pro choice.

    What if your girlfriend did have an abortion, and killed your son or daughter?

    Or are you meerly arguing the case for other people while holding your own air of superiority. It smacks of nimbyism

    Listen, this is how it works - if you think something is okay for other people then you have to accept it is ok for family, your girlfiend, and your children, too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    The same thing as a mother making a choice on behalf of her baby, whether it should live or die! :rolleyes:

    Exactly, HER baby. It's her life thats affected by her having or not having a baby, not yours.

    You can roll your eyes all you like, but you've no right to decide what other people do with their bodies.

    And what of children that are the product of rape, either by stranger sor family members (it happens). Why would you potentially force some woman to endure a lifetime of torment every day having to deal with a child they didnt/dont want and resent?Having to relive the ordeal every day. The child has to deal with that too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Is all of this aimed at me or just the first bit - Just to point out, if the rest is, you're preaching, for the most part, to the choir, but I don't see the point in a yes or no discussion here, apart from it being logically and morally unsound, it's not going to get anywhere. Far more interested in how people perceive the grey areas.

    No, I was just interested in your response, it was worth replying to :) The 'grey areas' make bad laws, but good 'news' worthy topics, imo wonderfulname. You argue it, convince people it makes sense if you think abortion serves or helps.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Which is why the law should be changed about the definition of what is a living human being and what is not.

    Surely the definition of what a living human being is should come from the scientific and medical community and not politicians or legislators. :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »
    What if your girlfriend did have an abortion, and killed your son or daughter?.

    My girlfriend feels the same as me. Abortion isnt something she'd do, but supports other peoples right to choice.
    Festus wrote: »
    Listen, this is how it works - if you think something is okay for other people then you have to accept it is ok for family, your girlfiend, and your children, too.

    If a daughter of mine (wont happen, I've 2 sons and we're done having kids) decided as an adult to have an abortion thats her choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    You can roll your eyes all you like, but you've no right to decide what other people do with their bodies.

    Neither has a mother any right to decide what to do with a baby's body, they are not one being, but two seperate beings.
    And what of children that are the product of rape, either by stranger sor family members (it happens). Why would you potentially force some woman to endure a lifetime of torment every day having to deal with a child they didnt/dont want and resent?Having to relive the ordeal every day. The child has to deal with that too.

    But the woman must endure a lifetime of two torments, both rape and abortion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Festus wrote: »
    Which is why the law should be changed about the definition of what is a living human being and what is not.

    Surely the definition of what a living human being is should come from the scientific and medical community and not politicians or legislators. :confused:

    Well if they did define it as something that can survive outside the womb then legally whatever is in the womb during the early weeks of pregnancy is just a cell grouping, not a living thing. If that Is already the case then legally you cannot refer to a foetus in the early weeks of pregnancy as a human being, and has no rights.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    My girlfriend feels the same as me. Abortion isnt something she'd do, but supports other peoples right to choice.



    If a daughter of mine (wont happen, I've 2 sons and we're done having kids) decided as an adult to have an abortion thats her choice.

    So you don't want grandchildren either...

    ... or rather, you wouldn't be too pushed if your sons wives or girlfriends decided you shouldn't have any while you're alive. or at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    But the woman must endure a lifetime of two torments, both rape and abortion.

    Not everyone views abortion as a torment. Plenty of people are perfectly fine with it. Thats their choice. Choice being the operative word.

    You choose what you want with your life and how you live it, let others do the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »
    So you don't want grandchildren either...

    Your just making up replies to stuff I havnt posted. Yes , I'd like grandchildren. I wont be forcign my kids to have them if they dont want to. If they both turn out to be gay it'll probably irrelevant anyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »

    ... or rather, you wouldn't be too pushed if your sons wives or girlfriends decided you shouldn't have any while you're alive.

    Again, what?

    If its at a stage where people are having abortions just to make sure I dont have grandkids, then whether women in Ireland can legally have them here will be the least of my family worries. The relationsips will have failed at a much worse level at that stage.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Your just making up replies to stuff I havnt posted. Yes , I'd like grandchildren. I wont be forcign my kids to have them if they dont want to. If they both turn out to be gay it'll probably irrelevant anyone.

    So? you're making up stuff that you don't think will affect you. It's OK for other people, just not your girlfriend, isn't that right... you're not planning any more kids so it won't affect you, you think.

    Whether you kids have kids or not is neither here nor there. I'm asking you to consider how you would feel if in your advancing years your sons come along and tell you your grandchildren have been aborted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »
    So? you're making up stuff that you don't think will affect you. It's OK for other people, just not your girlfriend, isn't that right... you're not planning any more kids so it won't affect you, you think..

    What have I made up? Myslef and my girlfriend have had discussions about it and decided it wasnt for us, so yes, it wont affect us. Who am I to make that decision for another couple, people I dont even know?
    Festus wrote: »
    Whether you kids have kids or not is neither here nor there. I'm asking you to consider how you would feel if in your advancing years your sons come along and tell you your grandchildren have been aborted.

    Thats their choice to do if they want, I dont have a say in the choices other adults make, nor should I.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Again, what?

    If its at a stage where people are having abortions just to make sure I dont have grandkids, then whether women in Ireland can legally have them here will be the least of my family worries. The relationsips will have failed at a much worse level at that stage.

    You're going way too deep in trying to put words in my mouth.

    All I'm saying is that you wouldn't care if your grandchildren were aborted. Right?

    If I'm wrong then you have to consider that the availability of abortion would put the lives of your grandchildren at risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    And if, about 8 months into the pregnancy the man changes his mind and immigrates after begging her not to have an abortion? And it does happen, I know someone this happened to.

    That's beside the point I was making and argumentative for the sake of it. Maybe the guy found out the woman was screwing around and the baby wasn't his.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    What have I made up? Myslef and my girlfriend have had discussions about it and decided it wasnt for us, so yes, it wont affect us. Who am I to make that decision for another couple, people I dont even know?

    You don't know your grandchildren yet but you seem happy for them to be aborted if it is your sons or your sons partners choice.

    Thats their choice to do if they want, I dont have a say in the choices other adults make, nor should I.

    Even if that other adult wants to kill your child or grandchild?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    lmaopml wrote: »
    No, I was just interested in your response, it was worth replying to :) The 'grey areas' make bad laws, but good 'news' worthy topics, imo wonderfulname. You argue it, convince people it makes sense if you think abortion serves or helps.

    In general, yes, grey areas make bad laws for grey wording, but confusingly enough you can address the grey areas in black and white, just because it has not been done here does not mean it cannot be.

    Lets take the substantial risk to the life of the mother thing, if the words substantial and risk are clearly defined that concept can work as intended, or as presented. I already mentioned the doctrine of double effect, that could be deemed to be a foray into the grey on the part of Catholicism, but despite that it still makes it very clear what is acceptable and what is not in situations which are about as far from black and white as moral decisions can get.

    As for my own position on abortion, I'm not sure of it overall, but I do believe if a woman is likely to die (as measured by a specified degree of probability evident from medical knowledge) without an abortion, it's just inhumane to withhold it in this country, the idea that we do this to women quite disgusts me in fact, how can defending it be deemed morally right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »
    You don't know your grandchildren yet but you seem happy for them to be aborted if it is your sons or your sons partners choice.




    Even if that other adult wants to kill your child or grandchild?

    Your not going to get me to change my mind by trying to press personal buttons.

    What right should I have to dictate the actions of other adults can do with their bodies? Whether they are related to me is irrelevant.

    Festus wrote: »
    You're going way too deep in trying to put words in my mouth.
    .

    I think if you read back its the other way round. You conveniently skip over bits you dont want to answer and deciding I dont want things to go a certain way. ie the 2 sentences that followed the quoted one.

    I live my life the way I want too, and I leave others alone to do the same. I dont practice any religion and that suits me. I have no need for any.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Keylem


    Exactly, HER baby. It's her life thats affected by her having or not having a baby, not yours.

    You can roll your eyes all you like, but you've no right to decide what other people do with their bodies.

    And what of children that are the product of rape, either by stranger sor family members (it happens). Why would you potentially force some woman to endure a lifetime of torment every day having to deal with a child they didnt/dont want and resent?Having to relive the ordeal every day. The child has to deal with that too.

    By violating her baby's body through abortion, the mother would be no better than the person who violated her body through rape, in fact it may be worse, as one is the killing of another human being!


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Keylem wrote: »
    By violating her baby's body through abortion, the mother would be no better than the person who violated her body through rape, in fact it may be worse, as one is the killing of another human being!

    In your opinion. Your opion is not someone elses. Thats why you get to choose what you do with your body and should leave others to do the same.

    I'm sure theres one or two ways you violate your body in some peoples opinion. Shoudl they be allowed stop you doing that?

    Maybe we should make any potentially harmfull things illegal for pregnant women. Caffeine? certain foods? etc Force them to comply with our opinions?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Your not going to get me to change my mind by trying to press personal buttons.

    What right should I have to dictate the actions of other adults can do with their bodies? Whether they are related to me is irrelevant.

    The baby growing inside a woman is not her body. It is a separate individual that due to the nature of our biology gestates inside of the mother for nine months. We are not marsupials. If we were we would be arguing about litter laws.

    And when it comes to it I will push whatever buttons I feel are neccessary to get the message across and to get people thinking. If getting you thinking works that's a bonus but I am lousy at holding my breath.

    You can think what you like, that is your choice. My concern is when your choices and your actions - for example voting for abortion in Ireland if that opportunity ever comes up again - leads to the destruction of innocent human life. Lives that were given no choice at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,317 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Keylem wrote: »
    By violating her baby's body through abortion, the mother would be no better than the person who violated her body through rape, in fact it may be worse, as one is the killing of another human being!

    Wow. That's just......wow.

    I find it hard to believe that people still think this way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Wow. That's just......wow.

    I find it hard to believe that people still think this way.

    Yeah, it's mad. Maybe if they were violated they might think differently. Easy to judge from a pedestal of righteousness.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Your not going to get me to change my mind by trying to press personal buttons.

    What personal buttons?
    What right should I have to dictate the actions of other adults can do with their bodies? Whether they are related to me is irrelevant.

    No one is talking about what adults do to their own bodies here. What we are talking about is what adults do to the bodies of their children.


    I think if you read back its the other way round. You conveniently skip over bits you dont want to answer and deciding I dont want things to go a certain way. ie the 2 sentences that followed the quoted one.

    I got trigger happy and missed a bit. Deal with it.
    I live my life the way I want too, and I leave others alone to do the same. I dont practice any religion and that suits me. I have no need for any.

    Your choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »
    The baby growing inside a woman is not her body. It is a separate individual that due to the nature of our biology gestates inside of the mother for nine months. We are not marsupials. If we were we would be arguing about litter laws.

    And when it comes to it I will push whatever buttons I feel are neccessary to get the message across and to get people thinking. If getting you thinking works that's a bonus but I am lousy at holding my breath.

    You can think what you like, that is your choice. My concern is when your choices and your actions - for example voting for abortion in Ireland if that opportunity ever comes up again - leads to the destruction of innocent human life. Lives that were given no choice at all.

    If anything, the self righteousness and moral indignation pushes me further towards the opposite pole of thinking from yours. It's the people that make such an effort of forcing their opinions on others that make me want to stop beign so lazy come election or referendum times and make sure I get off my arse and vote, maybe even do some campaigning to make sure other similar minded people do the same.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Festus wrote: »



    Your choice.

    I'm still allowed have one of those? Cool.


This discussion has been closed.
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