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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I think at underage you need a spread. You've got limited time to work with the squad, and as you say - you may be looking at lads for the first time and only get a few opportunities to try them out.

    Seniors have a bit more time and flexibility to work with players. It might take years to turn a prospect into a senior player. At this level I think it should be more about the best guys available for the job rather than going at it geographically.

    To be honest, I don't see how one has to be a direct substitute for the other.

    There is a simple way to solve this: Let those who disagree with the selection being held open for someone from the West tell us who they think should be the 4th selector, and also tell us what they know of the others.

    If they can't do that, then they can not argue against what the County Board are doing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭solarith


    The entire concept of East / West should be destroyed, and the best men should get the job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    solarith wrote: »
    The entire concept of East / West should be destroyed, and the best men should get the job.

    But who said that they won't?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    tonc76 wrote: »
    I thought the minor championships are played on a countywide basis? If so it shouldn't matter where the selectors are from no?

    They are, but I would say the three that have been ratified so far are probably from teams in the A. I know the manager is from Mount Sion anyway.

    The teams in Division 2 and 3 (and occasionally, but rarely I would say division 4) can produce an outstanding player on any team. With that in mind, it's important that you have someone from those divisions to represent them.

    That in itself wouldn't neccesarily dictate that the selector should be from the West, but I do feel a balance is neccessary. No doubt the minor teams are far better than what they were but even in a team a couple of years ago that the manager quoted as having 20 clubs or more represented, there was still an example of a player suffering on account of bias.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    To be honest, I don't see how one has to be a direct substitute for the other.

    There is a simple way to solve this: Let those who disagree with the selection being held open for someone from the West tell us who they think should be the 4th selector, and also tell us what they know of the others.

    If they can't do that, then they can not argue against what the County Board are doing.

    You're coming at it from the wrong angle. You're approaching it from the angle of familiarity and bias. The guy from the West will favour West players, east for east etc.

    I agree with you that for underage teams, where you've got a large amount of players coming at you from various angles, most of them playing at that particular level for the first time (minor is a big step up from U16, U21 a big jump from minor) within the time constraints involved - it helps to have someone who knows the guys in their area, and can provide an accurate and impartial assessment of their ability when the squad is being selected. After the squad is selected management should have plenty of time to make up their minds.

    As I say, for senior players, you're only going to have a smallish amount of turnover every year, so a lot of the above is taken out of the equation. The pool is small, and I think if there is some guy playing brilliantly in Bonmahon or in Ballysaggart we'll hear about it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭thesultan


    Heard alot of talk of fella's travelling next year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    hardybuck wrote: »
    You're coming at it from the wrong angle. You're approaching it from the angle of familiarity and bias. The guy from the West will favour West players, east for east etc.

    I agree with you that for underage teams, where you've got a large amount of players coming at you from various angles, most of them playing at that particular level for the first time (minor is a big step up from U16, U21 a big jump from minor) within the time constraints involved - it helps to have someone who knows the guys in their area, and can provide an accurate and impartial assessment of their ability when the squad is being selected. After the squad is selected management should have plenty of time to make up their minds.

    As I say, for senior players, you're only going to have a smallish amount of turnover every year, so a lot of the above is taken out of the equation. The pool is small, and I think if there is some guy playing brilliantly in Bonmahon or in Ballysaggart we'll hear about it.

    I know what you mean, but to be honest I think that it's almost impossible to prevent some level of bias with the way the systeme goes.

    You're picking lads that have a vested interest in clubs, they were involved with their own clubs before this and you can be sure they know lads that are playing minor for their club. We naturally see players that we support being better than others of similar ability by default, emotions cloud judgement. Of that I feel there is no doubt. So some level of bias is inevitable.

    I think there are two types of bias: innocent bias, and spiteful bias. Spiteful bias is the problem to me. Say I'm the manager from Ballygunner, and I hate Mount Sion, so I decide that I'm going to have the minimum amount of there players I can get away with and try my best to make life difficult for them. I do think that spite extends to sometimes a Manager from a traditionally successful club looking down on those that aren't from a club that has a great history. And no doubt in the West, there is a level of we look after our own.

    The only way I could see you avoiding this is if you had 4 selectors from Division 4 teams, but then you might have a compromise on the quality of the coaching and knowledge of the game in your management team as aside from the fact that most division 4 teams have small populations, their next biggest problem is the lack of quality of coaching/interest/knowledge of the game.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭noiniho


    thesultan wrote: »
    Heard alot of talk of fella's travelling next year.


    doesnt look good so


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 hurlerford


    They are, but I would say the three that have been ratified so far are probably from teams in the A. I know the manager is from Mount Sion anyway.

    The teams in Division 2 and 3 (and occasionally, but rarely I would say division 4) can produce an outstanding player on any team. With that in mind, it's important that you have someone from those divisions to represent them.

    That in itself wouldn't neccesarily dictate that the selector should be from the West, but I do feel a balance is neccessary. No doubt the minor teams are far better than what they were but even in a team a couple of years ago that the manager quoted as having 20 clubs or more represented, there was still an example of a player suffering on account of bias.

    Anyone know if new management for the county under 21 will be appointed for next year. The last two years have been a disaster.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭Deise Hurler



    They are, but I would say the three that have been ratified so far are probably from teams in the A. I know the manager is from Mount Sion anyway.

    The teams in Division 2 and 3 (and occasionally, but rarely I would say division 4) can produce an outstanding player on any team. With that in mind, it's important that you have someone from those divisions to represent them.

    That in itself wouldn't neccesarily dictate that the selector should be from the West, but I do feel a balance is neccessary. No doubt the minor teams are far better than what they were but even in a team a couple of years ago that the manager quoted as having 20 clubs or more represented, there was still an example of a player suffering on account of bias.
    Who is the minor manager for next year and who are his selectors.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    Who is the minor manager for next year and who are his selectors.

    Seán Power (Mount Sion) is the manager, and his selectors are John Tracey and Bill Colfer with one more to be appointed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    thesultan wrote: »
    Heard alot of talk of fella's travelling next year.

    Heard that too. No decent job prospects. No faith in current management and disillusionment with curent co. board/expenses situation all factors


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    Seán Power (Mount Sion) is the manager, and his selectors are John Tracey and Bill Colfer with one more to be appointed.

    Are these lads just appointed off the cuff or have they been involved with previous development squads....? Forget the east v west argument but what credentials do the lads in charge of our young players have


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    Are these lads just appointed off the cuff or have they been involved with previous development squads....? Forget the east v west argument but what credentials do the lads in charge of our young players have

    No idea to be honest. I saw a load of stuff about reports from the County Board meeting on Twitter, but nothing about the experience of those that have been appointed.

    Maybe somebody else could shed some light on that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭ManFromCheese


    Seán Power (Mount Sion) is the manager, and his selectors are John Tracey and Bill Colfer with one more to be appointed.


    never heard of any of them!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 hurlerford


    Are these lads just appointed off the cuff or have they been involved with previous development squads....? Forget the east v west argument but what credentials do the lads in charge of our young players have

    Sean was in charge of the u17 development squad last year that played in mallow and has had some involvement with next years u18 for the last number of years. He'll know the players allready and wont be starting from scratch, he should get the best out of them. I dont know the other lads but if their anything like sean they'll be ok.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Black Suir


    Seán Power (Mount Sion) is the manager, and his selectors are John Tracey and Bill Colfer with one more to be appointed.


    God help us.

    Isnt Sean Power and out and out soccer man. What has he done for underage hurling in this county, apart from tag onto teams. The other two lads are involved with a number of years, but i dont know if they are the right people for the job. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Black Suir


    Are these lads just appointed off the cuff or have they been involved with previous development squads....? Forget the east v west argument but what credentials do the lads in charge of our young players have


    It would appear now adays that you do some coaching course set out by Croke Park and you are then considered good enough for the job. What interest you showed at the course does not seem to matter, all that does is that you show up on the night or over a few nights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Black Suir


    No idea to be honest. I saw a load of stuff about reports from the County Board meeting on Twitter, but nothing about the experience of those that have been appointed.

    Maybe somebody else could shed some light on that?

    I saw the same but did not see anyone say what was in the reports or if they did, I missed it. Must get the local papers to see if there is anything in them about the reports mentioned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 hurlerford


    Black Suir wrote: »
    God help us.

    Isnt Sean Power and out and out soccer man. What has he done for underage hurling in this county, apart from tag onto teams. The other two lads are involved with a number of years, but i dont know if they are the right people for the job. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.

    Rubbish talk, you must be thinking of someone else. Any word of the harty cup results today?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭zol 2


    hurlerford wrote: »
    Anyone know if new management for the county under 21 will be appointed for next year. The last two years have been a disaster.

    Liam"Chuck" O Connor offered his services but was turned down as he was deemed too troublesome by a certain member of the county board.(Guess who!)
    So as he can no longer be considered as he's not regarded a suitable candidate i believe it's between Jimmy Meaney and a Fintan Murray from Cappoquin consortium that includes Fintan O Connor from Fourmilewater and just about anyone else who is willing to accept going in with them,he has approached so many!!

    So as long as your compatible with a certain member of the board your coaching experience doesn't come in to it. The way it looks is that the attitude is"There's another box ticked we've entered teams in minor and u21" God forbid if we should win a first round it would rightly upset the apple cart.
    Preferably i would give it to Jimmy Meaney over the other option(That's if that's all is acceptable by the board)he would have the respect of the players and has experience of being in charge of a successful munster minor winning team. 30k is the budget i believe so it really would be run very tightly whomever gets the position,so fundraising i would imagine would be the order of the day again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    zol 2 wrote: »
    Liam"Chuck" O Connor offered his services but was turned down as he was deemed too troublesome by a certain member of the county board.(Guess who!)
    So as he can no longer be considered as he's not regarded a suitable candidate i believe it's between Jimmy Meaney and a Fintan Murray from Cappoquin consortium that includes Fintan O Connor from Fourmilewater and just about anyone else who is willing to accept going in with them,he has approached so many!!

    So as long as your compatible with a certain member of the board your coaching experience doesn't come in to it. The way it looks is that the attitude is"There's another box ticked we've entered teams in minor and u21" God forbid if we should win a first round it would rightly upset the apple cart.
    Preferably i would give it to Jimmy Meaney over the other option(That's if that's all is acceptable by the board)he would have the respect of the players and has experience of being in charge of a successful munster minor winning team. 30k is the budget i believe so it really would be run very tightly whomever gets the position,so fundraising i would imagine would be the order of the day again.

    What is your personal grievance with Timmy O'Keeffe?

    To be honest, I would have Chuck O Connor behind the two options you mentioned. The minor team he had were trounced by Dublin, and I've heard enough to suggest he let personal opinions of players cloud his judgement of their ability.

    I dunno that the other two have been involved in an inter county setup before though, so Meaney has that advantage over them. You could certainly make a good case for him getting the job for at least 1 year to see how he fares.


  • Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭mccarthy37


    hurlerford wrote: »
    Rubbish talk, you must be thinking of someone else. Any word of the harty cup results today?

    Blackwater College 2.12 West Limerick Schools 0.14 Very good win for Blackwater as they were short some of their star players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭Cake Man


    mccarthy37 wrote: »
    Blackwater College 2.12 West Limerick Schools 0.14 Very good win for Blackwater as they were short some of their star players.

    Good stuff, think that should mean they're guaranteed progress into the quarter finals. Are DLS and Dungarvan colleges out this week?
    Has anything been set in stone regarding the minor and U21 management appointments or are these just names being mentioned?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    Cake Man wrote: »
    Good stuff, think that should mean they're guaranteed progress into the quarter finals. Are DLS and Dungarvan colleges out this week?
    Has anything been set in stone regarding the minor and U21 management appointments or are these just names being mentioned?

    De la Salle playing Clonmel tomorrow.

    Col na deise arent playing as Dungarvan CBS were playing in the Munster B competition yesterday. They beat Glanmire by a cricket score and in truth should be in the Harty Cup by themselves they are way too good for this competition.

    Blackwater looking very good indeed they are unbeaten while missing their main players in the earlier games (the bennetts) they have to be one of the favourites to go all the way at this stage. Thurles and Nenagh looking strong aswell


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Dickys Back Garden


    Black Suir wrote: »
    God help us.

    Isnt Sean Power and out and out soccer man. What has he done for underage hurling in this county, apart from tag onto teams. The other two lads are involved with a number of years, but i dont know if they are the right people for the job. Hopefully they will prove me wrong.

    Oh the "knowledge" of some folk is frightening!! The Seán Power you speak of is around thirty years older than the new minor manager! For an "out and out soccer man" he was a God send to Waterford hurling over the past ten years before he was deemed surplus to requirements by the present management! The mans decency and commitment to hurling was, given his background in soccer, astonishing! I think your "tag on to teams" remark is way out of order. The man is a gentleman who gave a hell of a lot more to hurling than he has ever gotten out of it. I suggest you ask any of the players who had dealings with him and you will find out how ignorant your statement is. Such a pity that people can come out with this tripe unchecked! Can't believe you posted this six hours ago and none of our hurling experts here corrected you!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    Oh the "knowledge" of some folk is frightening!! The Seán Power you speak of is around thirty years older than the new minor manager! For an "out and out soccer man" he was a God send to Waterford hurling over the past ten years before he was deemed surplus to requirements by the present management! The mans decency and commitment to hurling was, given his background in soccer, astonishing! I think your "tag on to teams" remark is way out of order. The man is a gentleman who gave a hell of a lot more to hurling than he has ever gotten out of it. I suggest you ask any of the players who had dealings with him and you will find out how ignorant your statement is. Such a pity that people can come out with this tripe unchecked! Can't believe you posted this six hours ago and none of our hurling experts here corrected you!

    Teach us oh knowledgable one! Show us the error of our ways and cleanse us from the filth of our misinformation and ignorance...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 hurlerford


    What is your personal grievance with Timmy O'Keeffe?

    To be honest, I would have Chuck O Connor behind the two options you mentioned. The minor team he had were trounced by Dublin, and I've heard enough to suggest he let personal opinions of players cloud his judgement of their ability.

    I dunno that the other two have been involved in an inter county setup before though, so Meaney has that advantage over them. You could certainly make a good case for him getting the job for at least 1 year to see how he fares.

    Chuck would be an excellent choice for under 21 manager. When he was manager of the county minors we beat Limerick and Tipperary and even knocked out the Kilkenny minors out of the championship.

    We should learn from the current all ireland winning champions Clare whose management were involved with the minors for the two years previous to this year's U21 and worked with the players from under 14 up. They had developed a style of hurling before U21 and were able to continue thier good work as they didn't have to start from scratch and learn players names, figure out who is good or not, their best positions, develop a level of trust etc... This is one reason why waterford are not doing well at U21 as their is no continuation in management from the younger grades up but a totally new management team are put in place at this level and the level of intenesity and commitment is not there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    hurlerford wrote: »
    Chuck would be an excellent choice for under 21 manager. When he was manager of the county minors we beat Limerick and Tipperary and even knocked out the Kilkenny minors out of the championship.

    We should learn from the current all ireland winning champions Clare whose management were involved with the minors for the two years previous to this year's U21 and worked with the players from under 14 up. They had developed a style of hurling before U21 and were able to continue thier good work as they didn't have to start from scratch and learn players names, figure out who is good or not, their best positions, develop a level of trust etc... This is one reason why waterford are not doing well at U21 as their is no continuation in management from the younger grades up but a totally new management team are put in place at this level and the level of intenesity and commitment is not there.


    That is all well and good and I agree its the correct way to do it But you need to get the right man in from the start. Clare got the best young coaches in at u14 level and have developed with the team up through the ranks.

    the problem here is that a felah is appointed for the sake of filling the position rather than being head-hunted as the best man for the job. And when it turns out hes not really up to it or hes had enough of it he moves on theres a new guy in for the following year etc.

    What Id like to see done as its being done in other countys is get some of the past well known figures involved at underage teams. the likes of Dan Shanahan or Clinton Hennessy or whoever, someone recently retired who the young lads would respect and only be mad to play for. Maybe not necessarily manage the team but at least just have a role and be there to give some mentoring and advice. Get them involved in the u14 and u15 development squads and then have them working with that particular group up until minor or even u21 team. These lads have years of knowledge and experience playing at the top level


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭noiniho


    What is your personal grievance with Timmy O'Keeffe?

    To be honest, I would have Chuck O Connor behind the two options you mentioned. The minor team he had were trounced by Dublin, and I've heard enough to suggest he let personal opinions of players cloud his judgement of their ability.

    I dunno that the other two have been involved in an inter county setup before though, so Meaney has that advantage over them. You could certainly make a good case for him getting the job for at least 1 year to see how he fares.

    Correct me if I am wrong here but isnt the selector position that has yet to be filled designated for a candidate from the west (whomever that may be)?

    doesnt that then rule out Jimmy Meaney altogether? him being from Mt Sion


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