Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

iwanttovote · 22-10-2014 2:00pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I see no reason to prevent them from voting in some situations. There is a huge difference between a graduate in the US for a year gaining experience and a person who's been there 20 years and has started a family. Non Irish citizens can vote in some things as it is.

People sure like to make themselves feel special that they are martyrs who stayed behind to help rebuild the country as if it was completely by choice.

Yep, exactly. It's called pragmatism. The people interested in the country's politics and future are the young folks who had few opportunities and left in the last 10 years. A little common sense would show it's this demographic who are at stake, but users like The Corinthian can't see the can't see the forest for the trees. If there's a single outlier, the whole idea must be scrapped.

iwanttovote · 22-10-2014 2:10pm

Are you serious? First you question that such people exist, then when your bluff is called you change your tack and demand that someone prove that these people who cannot presently meddle in Irish politics without the vote (although groups like NORAID did their best) have done so? Straw man?

I'm missing the part in which these people are actively meddling in Irish politics. Please, just highlight that part for us.

I've really not got the time to do this, but a quick check on Wiki throws up the following, unless someone has a better source:
"The Government of Ireland, define the Irish diaspora as all persons of Irish nationality who habitually reside outside of the island of Ireland. This includes Irish citizens who have emigrated abroad and their children, who are Irish citizens by descent under Irish law. It also includes their grandchildren in cases where they were registered as Irish citizens in the Foreign Births Register held in every Irish diplomatic mission. (Great-grandchildren and even more distant descendants of Irish immigrants may also register as Irish citizens, but only if the parent through whom they claim descent was registered as a citizen before the descendant in question was born.) Under this legal definition, the Irish diaspora is considerably smaller—some 3 million persons, of whom 1.2 million are Irish-born emigrants. This is still a large ratio for any country."
Oddly enough, I suspect most of these may never have been in Ireland. We might have noticed an extra 1.8 million.

Show us a significant statistic then (and not a strawman argument please)

There are plenty of Irish in America that have the passport but have never set foot here. Those tend to be vocal on things happening here.

You are trying to back up a claim saying a significant number of Irish citizens who have never been to Ireland are actively interested in Irish politics and are actively trying to change its policies despite not having the vote. Show me that and don't try to misdirect. Until you provide something to back that claim, we will only assume you have given the number of foreign citizens with Irish passports and invented the rest. So please, show us some reliable numbers and sources. Thanks.

The Corinthian · 22-10-2014 2:30pm

iwanttovote wrote: »

You are trying to back up a claim saying a significant number of Irish citizens who have never been to Ireland are actively interested in Irish politics and are actively trying to change its policies despite not having the vote.

When did I make this claim?

I've pointed out that, at least from the vague definition of who would be entitled to vote that has been offered to date, many (seemingly a majority) would have at best a jus sanguinis connection to Ireland. Until we give them that right, there is no way to know how many would be actively interested in Irish politics would be interested in exercising that right.

But some certainly would, as we have seen with various religious and nationalist groups over the years, of which I cited NORAID (which you've ignored). So I'm not really interested in going down a wild goose chase of impossible stats just so you can avoid points made against you.

Show me that and don't try to misdirect. Until you provide something to back that claim, we will only assume you have given the number of foreign citizens with Irish passports and invented the rest. So please, show us some reliable numbers and sources. Thanks.

While we're on the subject of redirection, why is the vote necessary for these undefined benefits you and eire4 keep on going on about?

Given this is the very premise of what you're arguing in this thread, until you can demonstrate this, you have no case at all. Nothing, except for some vague, magical benefits that you can't even explain when challenged.

Draco · 22-10-2014 3:48pm

Just as a matter of interest iwanttovote, can you name any of the other issues that are coming up for referendum next year?

eire4 · 22-10-2014 8:17pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And ironically it is rather sad and disrespectful of you to ignore the opinions of others, which is what you have done here.

And what was "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" supposed to mean other than I am anti-emigrants, so with due respects, you're not being very honest.

Except you've not really argued that we would have much to contribute beyond claiming that we have much to contribute in the vaguest of terms. Simultaneously you've ignored arguments against, or seemingly perhaps not even understood them.

You failed to address the problems with your system of deciding who gets the vote in the first place. You've ignored the point made on how once you leave Ireland you begin to lose touch with what it going on in Ireland, compared to someone actually living in Ireland. And you've completely blanked the point on how those of us abroad would be voting for policies that will not affect us - if we vote in a government that will cut spending to the bone, it won't make a difference to us. Raise taxes? Not our problem. Vote against abortion? No problem, we probably have it anyway where we live.

We would be able to happily sit in our foreign host happy in the knowledge that our decisions will not affect us if they're wrong or mistaken. Instead those poor suckers 'back home' get to pay if they are. How do you stand on having a right to vote without any responsibility for the consiquences?

Or would you like to pay Irish tax as well as the tax of your host country, like Americans do, when abroad? Not a 'red herring' I'm afraid, because it's something that's already practiced and could be implemented on Irish citizens abroad - the ultimate insult from a society with a tradition of exporting it's employment problems.

You've ignored all these, and other, points and all you're doing is repeating your 'opinions'. Fine, but don't expect those opinions to be taken seriously by anyone paying attention to what you're saying.

So disagreeing with someone else is being disrespectful? Hmmm not sure I understand that reasoning. I have not sought to bash you or belittle your opinions. I have in fact clearly stared I respect your opinion even though it differs from mine.

As for suggesting your anti emigrant the quote you gave of mine clearly does not use the word anti emigrant. You obviously read your own meaning into a statement which was purely about your dislike of the idea that Irish emigrants should be allowed to vote in Ireland. I do apologize however for not making my point more clear to you. So for absolute clarity my point was and is that you have a strong aversion to the idea of Irish emigrants voting in Ireland.

I have consistently said that I would give the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad and their direct siblings which according to government estimates is about 800,000 currently. I have also said that this is a complex issue that would need to be looked at carefully and there may well be other groups of Irish emigrants who would need to be looked at for inclusion. I would say this is a good place to start from though.

In terms of what do emigrants have to contribue. To be specifc. The experience gained and contacts made in various different fields can be a valuable asset for Ireland. For long now the Irish government has gone abroad particuarly to the US with the begging bowl out looking for investments and jobs while turning their back on the Irish dispora once they get what they want. How much more investment and other economic help could the government gain from our diaspora if they actually encouraged them and showed them we want you to be part of our country and work with us to help improve things in Ireland.

You talk about Irish emigrants losing touch with Ireland once they leave. I disagree. As well as having more then likely family and friends in Ireland that they still stay in conatct with the modern world of the internet, Skype etc makes keeping right up to date very easy. Also as I said before the implication behind a statement such as that is that there is a certain knowledge level required before someone can vote. If that is the case then there are many Irish people living at home who will need to be kicked off the voting rolls as well.

You have an interesting point about how those voting from abroad would be voting on policies that don't affect them. I have stated I would favour the setting up of a constituency say a 3 seater that would be for Irish emigrants to vote into. Thus once an election is over the Irish emigrants would have a voice and a say. But to suggest that 3 TD's is suddenly going to dominate the direction of policy is unrealistic. They will have a voice yes but they will not be in a position to run the show so to speak. To answer your question as above the Irish emigrant vote under that scenario is not able to dictate the direction of Irish government policy. It is only capable of being a voice within the Dail making the arguments that it will. I am very happy to have my fellow Irish men and women able to make that contribution. As for responsibility and consequences your a bit glass half empty there with the negative tone. Maybe a few Irish emigrant TD's could help improve debate and make positive contributions and introduce novel ideas.

In terms of US citizens living abroad paying tax. As of 2012 the first $95,100 of income is exempt. Beyond that there are exemptions for housing which can be applied. So yes some US citizens living abroad are required by their government to pay small amounts of tax but that only applies to those earning incomes in 6 figures. So technically yes there is some tax liabilities for Americans but they only apply to 6 figure earners and most countries who allow emigrants voting rights do not demand taxes to be allowed to vote just as paying income taxes of citizens at home is not required for someone to be allowed to vote.

The Corinthian · 22-10-2014 10:25pm

eire4 wrote: »

So disagreeing with someone else is being disrespectful? Hmmm not sure I understand that reasoning.

Of course you understand, I doubt you're that stupid.

Disagreeing is not disrespectful, but ignoring or willfully misrepresenting every point made in relation to a discussion so you can just repeat you own dogma repeatedly is. And that is what you have been doing.

So drop the feigned innocence, it's not fooling anyone.

As for suggesting your anti emigrant the quote you gave of mine clearly does not use the word anti emigrant.

No, you said "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" - wonder what 'against Irish emigrants' might mean? Can't be 'anti', seeing as it doesn't mean against...

Again; drop the feigned innocence, it's not fooling anyone.

I have consistently said that I would give the vote to Irish born citizens living abroad and their direct siblings which according to government estimates is about 800,000 currently. I have also said that this is a complex issue that would need to be looked at carefully and there may well be other groups of Irish emigrants who would need to be looked at for inclusion. I would say this is a good place to start from though.

And I pointed out that this would exclude all citizens who just happened not to be born in Ireland. Or those who were naturalized. And include those who happened to be in Ireland the weekend they were born but otherwise never lived there.

So a daft place to start, rather than good.

In terms of what do emigrants have to contribue. To be specifc. The experience gained and contacts made in various different fields can be a valuable asset for Ireland. For long now the Irish government has gone abroad particuarly to the US with the begging bowl out looking for investments and jobs while turning their back on the Irish dispora once they get what they want. How much more investment and other economic help could the government gain from our diaspora if they actually encouraged them and showed them we want you to be part of our country and work with us to help improve things in Ireland.

More vagaries. But lets pretend that you've suggested something real - why do we all need the vote to contribute this? You've still not answered this.

You talk about Irish emigrants losing touch with Ireland once they leave. I disagree.

When are the water charges being brought in, in your 'community' and what is going to be generally charged? What was the weather like this weekend?

In terms of US citizens living abroad paying tax. As of 2012 the first $95,100 of income is exempt. Beyond that there are exemptions for housing which can be applied. So yes some US citizens living abroad are required by their government to pay small amounts of tax but that only applies to those earning incomes in 6 figures. So technically yes there is some tax liabilities for Americans but they only apply to 6 figure earners and most countries who allow emigrants voting rights do not demand taxes to be allowed to vote just as paying income taxes of citizens at home is not required for someone to be allowed to vote.

What, first it was a red herring, now it's OK because how the Yanks do it only the better paid get hit and that's all right? You have to be joking me.

Draco · 23-10-2014 10:07am

eire4 wrote: »

You have an interesting point about how those voting from abroad would be voting on policies that don't affect them. I have stated I would favour the setting up of a constituency say a 3 seater that would be for Irish emigrants to vote into. Thus once an election is over the Irish emigrants would have a voice and a say. But to suggest that 3 TD's is suddenly going to dominate the direction of policy is unrealistic.

This alone shows how out of touch you are with the sentiment in Ireland - there's a lot of noise at the moment about reducing the number of sitting TDs never mind adding to them.

Also a bloc 3 TDs could wield an awful lot of power - the last FF government relied on 1 PD and some independents and the next election could come down to the same. That would give disportionate power to TDs that do not have any constituents actually effected by any laws they change.

I'll ask you the same question I've asked iwanttovote above:
Can you name any of the other issues that are coming up for referendum next year (without googling them)?

eire4 · 24-10-2014 7:18am

Draco wrote: »

This alone shows how out of touch you are with the sentiment in Ireland - there's a lot of noise at the moment about reducing the number of sitting TDs never mind adding to them.

Also a bloc 3 TDs could wield an awful lot of power - the last FF government relied on 1 PD and some independents and the next election could come down to the same. That would give disportionate power to TDs that do not have any constituents actually effected by any laws they change.

I'll ask you the same question I've asked iwanttovote above:
Can you name any of the other issues that are coming up for referendum next year (without googling them)?

I am well aware of current sentiment in Ireland and the ideas around reducing the number of TD's from the current level of 166. I believe Fine Gael's plan was to reduce the number by 7 which seems in my opinon to probably not be enough. I would also suggest reducing the number of TD's does little to imrpove the structural issue of too much centralised power in the current system. But that is a whole other topic really.

My suggestion for an emigrant consituency with say 3 TD's does not have to mean we cannot still reduce the number of TD's from its current level.

It is possible that a bloc of 3 emigrant TD's could in theory wield power if they held the balance of power. That supposes though that those 3 TD's would not be members of one of the current parties and would be indepandants and would act in concert. Which is a lot to suppose if not impossible. If your scenario did come to pass I would have no problem with it though. However it is highly unlikely to occur even in our current situation politically as it is unlikely all 3 TD's would be independants if any and or that they would all operate as a tight bloc.

To answer your direct question. The government has said it will hold a referendum on marriage equality in the first half of next year. It seems the government may use the day to also hold a few other referendums such as reducing the voting age to 16 and reducing the length of the presidential term from its current 7 years. These and a number of other issues arose from the constitional Convention. A convention which I might add put forward and accepted a proposal to introduce some emigrant voting rights. There is also a thought of a referendum to remove the Woman in the Home sexism from the constitution. While there is also likely to be a refendum on removing the out dated Blasphemy Law. All in all 2015 will be a busy year in Ireland from a referendum standpoint most likely as while some of the votes may be held on the same day I think they may seperate some of the issues so as to not heap too many issues on the electorate on one day.

eire4 · 24-10-2014 8:04am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course you understand, I doubt you're that stupid.

Disagreeing is not disrespectful, but ignoring or willfully misrepresenting every point made in relation to a discussion so you can just repeat you own dogma repeatedly is. And that is what you have been doing.

So drop the feigned innocence, it's not fooling anyone.

No, you said "you have very strong and determined views against Irish emigrants" - wonder what 'against Irish emigrants' might mean? Can't be 'anti', seeing as it doesn't mean against...

Again; drop the feigned innocence, it's not fooling anyone.

And I pointed out that this would exclude all citizens who just happened not to be born in Ireland. Or those who were naturalized. And include those who happened to be in Ireland the weekend they were born but otherwise never lived there.

So a daft place to start, rather than good.

More vagaries. But lets pretend that you've suggested something real - why do we all need the vote to contribute this? You've still not answered this.

When are the water charges being brought in, in your 'community' and what is going to be generally charged? What was the weather like this weekend?

What, first it was a red herring, now it's OK because how the Yanks do it only the better paid get hit and that's all right? You have to be joking me.

Hey we finally agree on a point. Disagreeing is not being disrespectful:) Glad we got to agree about something. Beyond that I have always said I respect your opinion, sadly you have not in regard to my opinion. I simply have a different one on this topic which it seems puts us on opposite sides of the issue. Which is perfectly fine.

Not sure why your bringing up the second point. I made it clear exactly what I meant in my last post that you clearly have a strong stance against emigrants having voting rights. I recognized that you might have read into my original post something that was not my intent and I apologized and clarified. It appears that did not make things clear enough for you.

So again to clarify my intent was to convey that you have very strong views against the idea of voting rights for Irish emigrants which you clearly do. I again apologize if I was not clear on my original post with that meaning.

In terms of who would get to vote I feel Irish born emigrants and their direct siblings would get the vote. So yes it would exclude those with Irish citizenship beyond direct siblings but it would include direct siblings. So it would not exclude all citizens who just happened to be born outside Ireland. Yes it would exclude those who were naturalized citizens but then moved abroad. While yes it would include our weekend visitors as you say given they were born in Ireland. You say insultingly a daft place to start. I say a good place and again I respect that you have a different viewpoint.

The ability to vote is the fundamental core of democracy in my opinion. That is why I believe emigrants should have voting rights. The Irish government (and past ones) continues to and has long put out the begging bowl and used our diaspora. I feel this one sided treatment needs to stop and a deep and positive engagement with our diaspora can be fostered by allowing them a voice in our country where I believe they have much to contribute.

The weather last weekend was pretty decent in the mid teens. Good weather for my nephews soccer game in which he managed to bag himself a goal:). The water charges are supposed to begin in a few months time after the new year. We are getting new post codes later next year as well.

I still say the taxation issue is a red herring as the idea of someone having to pay income tax to be eligible to vote is a backward step in terms of democracy in my opinion and suggests a slippery slope that could lead to other economic restrictions on the right to vote such as property rights. I gave a little detail on the US approach as you brought the US approach up but did not give any details on it. I never said how the Americans do it was OK. No Joke at all.

Draco · 24-10-2014 11:09am

eire4 wrote: »

It is possible that a bloc of 3 emigrant TD's could in theory wield power if they held the balance of power. That supposes though that those 3 TD's would not be members of one of the current parties and would be indepandants and would act in concert. Which is a lot to suppose if not impossible. If your scenario did come to pass I would have no problem with it though. However it is highly unlikely to occur even in our current situation politically as it is unlikely all 3 TD's would be independants if any and or that they would all operate as a tight bloc.

I completely disagree with your assessment. If you look at the only equivalent we have currently (the three NUI senators) they are all independents and I have no reason to believe that a 'diaspora constituency' would be any different. Independents have wielded a disproportionate amount of power over that last number of governments (Jackie Healy Rae being a perfect example) much to the detriment of the country in general. This looks set to continue as none of the main parties will be able to form a government on their own for the foreseeable future - at best it'll be 1 party with a handful of independents (all of whom will have their own little concessions).

I personally would have massive issues with a TD representing people that will not (and possibly never by virtue of the fact they don't live here) be affected by a law having a casting vote. If, however, the diaspora TDs were non-voting I wouldn't have a problem with them contributing to debates (although then they probably should be non-voting senators rather than TDs).

Fred Swanson · 24-10-2014 12:57pm

This post has been deleted.

eire4 · 24-10-2014 8:32pm

Draco wrote: »

I completely disagree with your assessment. If you look at the only equivalent we have currently (the three NUI senators) they are all independents and I have no reason to believe that a 'diaspora constituency' would be any different. Independents have wielded a disproportionate amount of power over that last number of governments (Jackie Healy Rae being a perfect example) much to the detriment of the country in general. This looks set to continue as none of the main parties will be able to form a government on their own for the foreseeable future - at best it'll be 1 party with a handful of independents (all of whom will have their own little concessions).

I personally would have massive issues with a TD representing people that will not (and possibly never by virtue of the fact they don't live here) be affected by a law having a casting vote. If, however, the diaspora TDs were non-voting I wouldn't have a problem with them contributing to debates (although then they probably should be non-voting senators rather than TDs).

Draco I hear where your coming from in terms of your feeling that in say a 3 seat emigrant constituency all 3 could be Independants. In the current political climate in Ireland certainly I would be surprised if 1 of them was not an Independant. But I would be equally surprised if all 3 were Independants. The current state of play in Irish politics is very spread out. But thats Democracy and it is reflective of the many local issues and specific issues as well as probably a fair amount of anger at the traditional main parties. I certainly agree with you that in the next general election there is very little chance that any party will even be able to come out as a clear winner in terms of number of seats.

Godge · 31-10-2014 1:18pm

You know I think those people living abroad who want to help Ireland should come home set up businesses and employ people with a living wage.

If only one out of every hundred thousand who would get the vote under this proposal did that, it would be of far more benefit to Ireland than extending the vote to those abroad.

eire4 · 31-10-2014 9:11pm

Godge wrote: »

You know I think those people living abroad who want to help Ireland should come home set up businesses and employ people with a living wage.

If only one out of every hundred thousand who would get the vote under this proposal did that, it would be of far more benefit to Ireland than extending the vote to those abroad.

That is pretty much the government position. They have been holding out the begging bowl and offering nothing tangible in return for many years now with mixed results.

It is one of the reasons I support extending the vote and really looking to encourage and develop the massive potential, talent, resources and connections of our diaspora not just in business but in other areas as well such as sports, arts and entertainment.

oscarBravo · 01-11-2014 8:28pm

eire4 wrote: »

It is one of the reasons I support extending the vote and really looking to encourage and develop the massive potential, talent, resources and connections of our diaspora not just in business but in other areas as well such as sports, arts and entertainment.

I may have missed a step, but how exactly does extending the vote encourage and develop talent, resources and connections in business, sports, arts and entertainment?

Godge · 04-11-2014 1:25am

eire4 wrote: »

That is pretty much the government position. They have been holding out the begging bowl and offering nothing tangible in return for many years now with mixed results.

It is one of the reasons I support extending the vote and really looking to encourage and develop the massive potential, talent, resources and connections of our diaspora not just in business but in other areas as well such as sports, arts and entertainment.

Some people abroad might enjoy having a vote, but what good for the country is shown by extending it to those abroad. Are you saying that those of left behind can't be trusted to rule ourselves?

eire4 · 04-11-2014 9:22pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I may have missed a step, but how exactly does extending the vote encourage and develop talent, resources and connections in business, sports, arts and entertainment?

When people are given a voice you are encouraging them to take an active role. Thats a much more positive way to engage with our diaspora and encourage them to participate rather then the current position where the government puts out the begging bowl but has no interest in our diaspora other then what financial benefit they can extract from them.

oscarBravo · 04-11-2014 9:56pm

eire4 wrote: »

When people are given a voice you are encouraging them to take an active role. Thats a much more positive way to engage with our diaspora and encourage them to participate rather then the current position where the government puts out the begging bowl but has no interest in our diaspora other then what financial benefit they can extract from them.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but I still find it hard to distinguish from underpants gnome logic.

The Corinthian · 05-11-2014 10:16am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I understand what you're trying to get at, but I still find it hard to distinguish from underpants gnome logic.

If you build it they will come.

That's essentially his logic.

He's failed to explain, outside of aspiration, why it would be a benefit. He's been unable to address the question of whom would be eligible or not in satisfactory manner. He's dismissed the danger of expatriate taxation on the basis that it would be against democratic principles, which does not mean it won't happen - so it's a worthless dismissal. And he's been unable address other criticisms of his plan either.

As an expat myself, I can understand the wish to still be enfranchised in the land you've left. But frankly it pointless and unfair on those you will end up imposing your views on without having to deal with the consequences.

To me such a vote is just more of that sense of entitlement, without the responsibility or consequences, that is all to common today.

eire4 · 05-11-2014 7:14pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you build it they will come.

That's essentially his logic.

He's failed to explain, outside of aspiration, why it would be a benefit. He's been unable to address the question of whom would be eligible or not in satisfactory manner. He's dismissed the danger of expatriate taxation on the basis that it would be against democratic principles, which does not mean it won't happen - so it's a worthless dismissal. And he's been unable address other criticisms of his plan either.

As an expat myself, I can understand the wish to still be enfranchised in the land you've left. But frankly it pointless and unfair on those you will end up imposing your views on without having to deal with the consequences.

To me such a vote is just more of that sense of entitlement, without the responsibility or consequences, that is all to common today.

As I always have in this thread I respect you have a different opinion and simply agree to disagree with you on this topic.

However I have answered the issues you have brought up again just not to your satisfaction but addressed them I have.

The Corinthian · 06-11-2014 10:02am

eire4 wrote: »

However I have answered the issues you have brought up again just not to your satisfaction but addressed them I have.

You've not answered the issues I raised by any reasonable measure of satisfaction. For example, your response to the expat taxation issue is some sort of bizarre personal opinion that it's not valid because you don't consider it democratic.

Who cares if you don't consider it democratic? When has that stopped a government from implementing such a law? How democratic was the cohabitation bill, for example?

So just because you personally disagree with it does not make it a red herring. Your opinion won't actually stop it coming to pass. And as such your response becomes irrelevant.

Even the basic premise of your argument is just wishful thinking. Give expats the vote and magically they'll contribute so much expertise to Ireland - for reasons that are fuzzy and undefined and... your opinion. Not even a rational argument as to why they would, let alone a stab a backing it up with evidence.

I pretty much gave up arguing with you because that's all you've been doing in this discussion. Repeating yourself, without addressing points made, as if your personal opinion could bend reality. It can't and you cannot convince anyone that it can with any reasonable measure of satisfaction.

eire4 · 07-11-2014 8:36pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You've not answered the issues I raised by any reasonable measure of satisfaction. For example, your response to the expat taxation issue is some sort of bizarre personal opinion that it's not valid because you don't consider it democratic.

Who cares if you don't consider it democratic? When has that stopped a government from implementing such a law? How democratic was the cohabitation bill, for example?

So just because you personally disagree with it does not make it a red herring. Your opinion won't actually stop it coming to pass. And as such your response becomes irrelevant.

Even the basic premise of your argument is just wishful thinking. Give expats the vote and magically they'll contribute so much expertise to Ireland - for reasons that are fuzzy and undefined and... your opinion. Not even a rational argument as to why they would, let alone a stab a backing it up with evidence.

I pretty much gave up arguing with you because that's all you've been doing in this discussion. Repeating yourself, without addressing points made, as if your personal opinion could bend reality. It can't and you cannot convince anyone that it can with any reasonable measure of satisfaction.

I may not have answered questions you have raised to your liking fair enough but I have answered your questions. We just have very divergent opinions on this issue. To answer your taxation point again. I find the idea that anybody not just citizens living abroad would have to pay income tax to be eligible to vote as very undemocratic and dangerous. It would thus exclude the poor, the homeless, many elderly and could be a slippery slope to other restrictions being imposed on the right to vote. Would pepple who receive more in government benefits then they pay in income tax be next to be denied a right to vote? Not a road I support going down. It seems you have a differing opinion fair enough.

I certainly feel that power is structured way to much in a very centralised way in Ireland we need to look at changing that and building our democracy. I care very much about speaking out for changes that I believe can improve our democracy. I also understand that others will disagree with my opinions. That is democracy at work.

My point and belief is that we have many very talented and connected people in a wide range of fields whos experience, connections etc could be very valuable for Ireland. To give Irish born citizens living abroad a vote is to encourage and connect with them in a positive way. Putting together a 3 seat say constituency for them to vote into gives them a voice and yet does not disrupt the Dail. I think taking this kind of innovative and forward thinging positive approach can be of benefit for our country. You disagree fair enough. I have addressed your questions you just don't agree with my opinions which is fine.

Godge · 10-11-2014 4:11pm

eire4 wrote: »

I may not have answered questions you have raised to your liking fair enough but I have answered your questions. We just have very divergent opinions on this issue. To answer your taxation point again. I find the idea that anybody not just citizens living abroad would have to pay income tax to be eligible to vote as very undemocratic and dangerous. It would thus exclude the poor, the homeless, many elderly and could be a slippery slope to other restrictions being imposed on the right to vote. Would pepple who receive more in government benefits then they pay in income tax be next to be denied a right to vote? Not a road I support going down. It seems you have a differing opinion fair enough.

There is nobody except you suggesting that the income tax thing would have to be extended to residents. Residents are committed to Ireland by being resident in Ireland whether they are paying tax, receiving social welfare or neither of the above.

Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving. In order to demonstrate that they retain commitment to Ireland, paying their income tax to Ireland is a reasonable test.

If you don't get the distinction I can't help you any further.

eire4 wrote: »

I certainly feel that power is structured way to much in a very centralised way in Ireland we need to look at changing that and building our democracy. I care very much about speaking out for changes that I believe can improve our democracy. I also understand that others will disagree with my opinions. That is democracy at work.

Let's localise our democracy so that the people of Leitrim can be ruled by the Leitrim exiles living in London.

eire4 wrote: »

My point and belief is that we have many very talented and connected people in a wide range of fields whos experience, connections etc could be very valuable for Ireland. To give Irish born citizens living abroad a vote is to encourage and connect with them in a positive way. Putting together a 3 seat say constituency for them to vote into gives them a voice and yet does not disrupt the Dail. I think taking this kind of innovative and forward thinging positive approach can be of benefit for our country. You disagree fair enough. I have addressed your questions you just don't agree with my opinions which is fine.

Well, get those people to help. Giving them a vote does nothing to help the country. Can you name five tangible benefits from having a 3-seater constituency for those who deserted Ireland?

eire4 · 10-11-2014 9:35pm

Godge wrote: »

There is nobody except you suggesting that the income tax thing would have to be extended to residents. Residents are committed to Ireland by being resident in Ireland whether they are paying tax, receiving social welfare or neither of the above.

Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving. In order to demonstrate that they retain commitment to Ireland, paying their income tax to Ireland is a reasonable test.

If you don't get the distinction I can't help you any further.

Let's localise our democracy so that the people of Leitrim can be ruled by the Leitrim exiles living in London.

Well, get those people to help. Giving them a vote does nothing to help the country. Can you name five tangible benefits from having a 3-seater constituency for those who deserted Ireland?

If you want to discuss a topic fine. But showering with invectives the many thousands who have been left Ireland since the economic collapse never mind how big a part of the last couple of hundered years of our history emigration has been a factor in Irish life is unacceptable and they do not deserve such insults.

Godge · 11-11-2014 5:14pm

eire4 wrote: »

If you want to discuss a topic fine. But showering with invectives the many thousands who have been left Ireland since the economic collapse never mind how big a part of the last couple of hundered years of our history emigration has been a factor in Irish life is unacceptable and they do not deserve such insults.

If you answered some of the questions asked such as where are the five tangible benefits from extending the vote? Or do you understand the distinction on the tax issue?

eire4 · 11-11-2014 7:50pm

Godge wrote: »

If you answered some of the questions asked such as where are the five tangible benefits from extending the vote? Or do you understand the distinction on the tax issue?

I have answered questions throughout this thread. You it would seem disagree with my answers and opinions. Fair enough no problem there at least on my end. But when you make a post with such invective and abusive comments towards Irish emigrants then I do not feel such an abusive post is worth responding to other then to point out its insulting nature.

Godge · 12-11-2014 2:21pm

eire4 wrote: »

I have answered questions throughout this thread. You it would seem disagree with my answers and opinions. Fair enough no problem there at least on my end. But when you make a post with such invective and abusive comments towards Irish emigrants then I do not feel such an abusive post is worth responding to other then to point out its insulting nature.

My post, repeated below, does not contain invective nor abusive comments towards Irish emigrants. Nor, taken in a whole is it of an insulting nature.

Godge wrote: »

There is nobody except you suggesting that the income tax thing would have to be extended to residents. Residents are committed to Ireland by being resident in Ireland whether they are paying tax, receiving social welfare or neither of the above.

Non-residents have shown their lack of commitment by leaving. In order to demonstrate that they retain commitment to Ireland, paying their income tax to Ireland is a reasonable test.

If you don't get the distinction I can't help you any further.

Let's localise our democracy so that the people of Leitrim can be ruled by the Leitrim exiles living in London.

Well, get those people to help. Giving them a vote does nothing to help the country. Can you name five tangible benefits from having a 3-seater constituency for those who deserted Ireland?

You may not like that some of us left behind to pick up the pieces and pay for the damage done by others feel that those who left to avoid paying for the damage demonstrated a lack of commitment to Ireland but we are entitled to hold that opinion and question the commitment of most of those emigrants. Expecting them to pay some taxes here like the rest of us do, would be a start.

The Corinthian · 12-11-2014 2:49pm

eire4 wrote: »

I may not have answered questions you have raised to your liking fair enough but I have answered your questions.

You've not. I'll demonstrate below.

To answer your taxation point again. I find the idea that anybody not just citizens living abroad would have to pay income tax to be eligible to vote as very undemocratic and dangerous.

And because you believe this no government will ever apply such a tax? Do you have some magical power of veto we're not aware of, because what I raised is that such a vote may be used as a pretext for introducing such a form of taxation, and if you do not have such a veto then your opinion is worthless and fails to address the point.

My point and belief is that we have many very talented and connected people in a wide range of fields whos experience, connections etc could be very valuable for Ireland.

Which is just a repetition of your vague fuzzy 'benefits' that you've been repeating. Of course you've not actually suggested what any of those benefits would actually be. "Irish expats are very talented so we're bound to benefit somehow" is the sum total of your logic.

So even there you've failed to give a response.

I have addressed your questions you just don't agree with my opinions which is fine.

No, you've just waffled in response. Indeed, on benefits, the only tangible potential one would be tax revenue, but that won't happen, apparently, because you don't believe in it... Waffle.

eire4 · 12-11-2014 9:29pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You've not. I'll demonstrate below.

And because you believe this no government will ever apply such a tax? Do you have some magical power of veto we're not aware of, because what I raised is that such a vote may be used as a pretext for introducing such a form of taxation, and if you do not have such a veto then your opinion is worthless and fails to address the point.

Which is just a repetition of your vague fuzzy 'benefits' that you've been repeating. Of course you've not actually suggested what any of those benefits would actually be. "Irish expats are very talented so we're bound to benefit somehow" is the sum total of your logic.

So even there you've failed to give a response.

No, you've just waffled in response. Indeed, on benefits, the only tangible potential one would be tax revenue, but that won't happen, apparently, because you don't believe in it... Waffle.

No I certainly do not have a magical veto on Irish government policy. I simply stated the point that to suggest that a persons ability to vote in elections in Ireland should be tied to whether they paid income tax or not is a very dangerous and highly undemocratic road to start upon as it would kick many current Irish residents off the electoral rolls never mind trying to extend such an undemocratic idea to emigrants. Now is it possible an Irish government could introduce such a proposal sure it could happen. Good luck to them trying to stay in government and push that through though.

As for benefits I would point to the business connections that can lead to jobs being created in Ireland. There is much talent and experience and knowledge in many areas be it business, arts, sports, entertainment which Irish emigrants could share and use to help to develop and grow various different fields. Currently the Irish government travels with the begging bowl out looking mostly for economic help from Irish emigrants but I believe this approach could be much more successful if we included our emigrants in Ireland and gave them a voice and I also believe there are benefits that could expand into other areas in Ireland not just economic as important as that obviously is.

The Corinthian · 13-11-2014 9:55am

eire4 wrote: »

No I certainly do not have a magical veto on Irish government policy. I simply stated the point that to suggest that a persons ability to vote in elections in Ireland should be tied to whether they paid income tax or not is a very dangerous and highly undemocratic road to start upon as it would kick many current Irish residents off the electoral rolls never mind trying to extend such an undemocratic idea to emigrants.

Pity no one other than you has suggested this would be how such a system would be implemented.

Were the government to introduce such a proposal, then all expats would be liable to declare their earnings abroad. That does not mean that they would have to pay if they don't earn enough, or anything - let alone that in not doing so they would be excluded from voting. That's your own invention; even the Americans don't do that - what they do is demand that you declare your income and if you qualify to pay, you pay and if not you don't. But if you don't declare it, you're in trouble and if you doc qualify to pay and don't pay, you're in trouble. And that trouble ends up meaning that you won't get your passport renewed, won't be able to vote from abroad and will end up being targeted for tax evasion if you repatriate. Nothing about having to pay tax to get the vote.

What you've introduced instead is a straw man that suits your argument. Some implementation that makes no sense and does not exist anywhere, so you can claim it could never be implemented.

As for benefits I would point to the business connections that can lead to jobs being created in Ireland.

Well this is nonsense to begin with. Of all expats, perhaps 1% may be in a position to help create jobs. Perhaps less. Most are not in any position to do so - how does a guy working in an Irish Pub in Kathmandu use his 'business connections' to create jobs in Ireland? Or another on a factory floor in BMW Bavaria leverage his vast network of high powered captains of industry to invest in Ireland? It's laughable.

And why would they? After all, you've not explained why having a vote would motivate us to do this? Why is such a vote so important to us doing any of this? Gratitude? Magically we'd feel included and show our patriotism? Wake up and smell the coffee, please.

You're using magical thinking in essence:

Some expats have business connections that can lead to jobs being created in Ireland.
They have the vote.
Magical stuff.
Jobs are created in Ireland.

All your arguments appear to be based on little else that straw men and magical thinking. You have failed to establish any tangible benefits. You have failed to explain why the vote would bring tangible benefits about. You have failed to address the flaws in such a plan, such as the possible introduction of expat taxation or even who would get a vote or not. You've repeatedly avoided the moral question of whether it makes sense to give the vote to those who will not suffer the consequences of such a vote.

You have nothing but a fantasy, because you personally want a right that you don't have because you emigrated. I emigrated too, but I don't share your sense of self entitlement.

Living abroad: right to vote in next referendum

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