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The Freestate Republic

  • 03-03-2014 6:34pm
    #1
    ormeau 1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 29 ✭


    Why is it that when the Freestate became a Republic it was referred to as the Republic of Ireland and not the Republic of the Irish Freestate?

    I am under the impression that the term 'Ireland' refers to the island of Ireland and the term Freestate refers to 26 counties of Ireland, just as Northern Ireland refers to six counties. To refer to the Government in the south of the country as Ireland is totally misleading since Ireland is under two different administrations.

    The Freestate Republic seems more appropriate considering that the Irish Republic existed from 1919-1921 which incorporated the entire island.

    The Freestate and the Republic that followed it are very different to the Irish Republic that preceded them. I think the distinction is necessary as there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what constitutes independence in Ireland.


Comments

  • #2
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    ormeau 1 wrote: »
    Why is it that when the Freestate became a Republic...
    It didn't.


  • #3
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Because republic of the irish free state is a bit of a silly name. Most divided countries use the country name in the respective states eg:

    Federal republic of Germany / german democratic republic.

    By your logic we should call Northern Ireland the "northern part of Ireland who are not part of the republic but are irish nonetheless".

    Since the first/second dail became the government of the free state, there is republican continuity all the way. Only crazy republicans try to suggest that the pro treaty members of the dail ceased to be the democratically elected representatives of the republic.

    The modern area of Northern Ireland didn't elect many Sinn Fein mps and so the abstention / first dail stuff was never really a representative of them. However, the first dail laid moral claim to the whole island, and that is reflected (with suitable alterations for the GFA) in our constitution.


  • #4
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Because republic of the irish free state is a bit of a silly name. Most divided countries use the country name in the respective states eg:

    Federal republic of Germany / german democratic republic.

    By your logic we should call Northern Ireland the "northern part of Ireland who are not part of the republic but are irish nonetheless"

    North-Western not Freestate Monarchy sounds good. :)


  • #5
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭paul71


    ormeau 1 wrote: »
    Why is it that when the Freestate became a Republic it was referred to as the Republic of Ireland and not the Republic of the Irish Freestate?

    I am under the impression that the term 'Ireland' refers to the island of Ireland and the term Freestate refers to 26 counties of Ireland, just as Northern Ireland refers to six counties. To refer to the Government in the south of the country as Ireland is totally misleading since Ireland is under two different administrations.

    The Freestate Republic seems more appropriate considering that the Irish Republic existed from 1919-1921 which incorporated the entire island.

    The Freestate and the Republic that followed it are very different to the Irish Republic that preceded them. I think the distinction is necessary as there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what constitutes independence in Ireland.


    A couple of points here, your "impression" is geographically correct but legally incorrect.

    There is no country called The Republic of Ireland, it is called Ireland or Eire in the constitution. (The Republic of Ireland is referred to in the constitution as a description of the country but not its name).

    It does seem rather strange to start a debate on the how appropriate the countries name is if you cant even get the current name right.


  • #6
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    paul71 wrote: »
    A couple of points here, your "impression" is geographically correct but legally incorrect.

    There is no country called The Republic of Ireland, it is called Ireland or Eire in the constitution. (The Republic of Ireland is referred to in the constitution as a description of the country but not its name).

    It does seem rather strange to start a debate on the how appropriate the countries name is if you cant even get the current name right.

    It's the Republic of Ireland by reason of the Republic of Ireland act 1948 and because that is how it is known by diplomatic convention.


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  • #7
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭paul71


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    It's the Republic of Ireland by reason of the Republic of Ireland act 1948 and because that is how it is known by diplomatic convention.

    Afraid not,

    Republic of Ireland act 1948, section 2: 2.—It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland


    Description not the name as per the constitution.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1948/en/act/pub/0022/sec0002.html#sec2


  • #8
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    It's the Republic of Ireland by reason of the Republic of Ireland act 1948 and because that is how it is known by diplomatic convention.
    In any treaties that I've read to which we are a signatory, the signatory country is "Ireland".


  • #9
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭paul71


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In any treaties that I've read to which we are a signatory, the signatory country is "Ireland".

    Correct, all EEC treaties, EU treaties, International taxaction treaties, our charter for UN membership use the name Ireland, not the description Republic of Ireland.


  • #10
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    paul71 wrote: »
    Afraid not,

    Republic of Ireland act 1948, section 2: 2.—It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland


    Description not the name as per the constitution.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1948/en/act/pub/0022/sec0002.html#sec2

    So your point is that even though the law says that the state shall be described as the Republic of Ireland, that no such state exists.

    Sure.


  • #11
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In any treaties that I've read to which we are a signatory, the signatory country is "Ireland".

    So? How does that prove that there is no such entity as the Republic of Ireland?


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  • #12
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭paul71


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    So your point is that even though the law says that the state shall be described as the Republic of Ireland, that no such state exists.

    Sure.


    Not in name, it doesn't. Any treaty referring to Republic of Ireland would be invalid. Additionally there were extradition requests from the UK in 1980s refused because they referred to Republic of Ireland not Ireland.

    I can be described as a tall man with big ears, but I cannot sign a legal document with my description if I want give it legal status, I must use my name to do that.

    So yes, SURE!


  • #13
    sarkozy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭sarkozy


    Until 1937, the Free State was a Dominion of the British Commonwealth of Nations. Except for two days (purportedly), the six counties were never part of the Free State under the Anglo-Irish Treaty as they 'opted out'.

    In 1937, a new Constitution of Ireland (our present one) was adopted, taking advantage of a loophole the Statute of Westminster, and replacing the Constitution of the Irish Free State, calling the Free State Ireland/Éire. This ended the gradual process of increasing sovereignty from Britain and the Commonwealth (e.g. replacement of the Governor-General with a President responsible for internal functions of state, but diplomats still accredited to the British monarch for external relations). So you're right about constructive ambiguity being part of Fianna Fáil's peaceful independence strategy. Partition had already occurred, so your point about Northern Ireland/All Island Ireland is moot.

    It was not until 1949 until the title 'Republic of Ireland' was officially used, but the 1937 Constitution clearly established a formal bicameral republican democratic state.

    But 'Republic of Ireland' is only an official description of Ireland, but not the state's constitutional legal title. That's why some comments have been made by, for example, Fintan O'Toole that our constitution does not describe the state as a republic, meaning we could theoretically become a communist or fascist state except for the constitution which effectively sets out a republican system of governance. It's in-between the lines.


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