Competition

mariaalice · 13-10-2014 1:27pm #1

Having been to the Wetherspoons got my thinking of this.

Are some section of the Irish economy wildly profitable and out of proportion to the profit made in other economies the said groups operate in.

For example is Diageo more profitable in the Irish economy than in other economies they operate in. I know there is the belief that the UK multiplies are more profitable in Ireland that the UK, but has that ever been proven definitely, pharmacies and pubs use to be very profitable in Ireland competition might have changed that a bit, but its still much cheaper for me to get my medication in northern Ireland that here.

What exactly is going on.

Cookie_Monster · 16-10-2014 4:48am

Having worked for Tesco Ireland in head office I can tell you TI is far more profitable than the UK. It's considered the golden child of the group, followed by Korea. This is 7 years ago mind you.

What exactly is going on.

little competition, small markets and high cost burden

Sheldons Brain · 16-10-2014 10:12pm

Lidl, Aldi and the An Post delivery deal with Amazon have done more to moderate the Irish cost of living than anything the government could manage to think up.

mariaalice · 17-10-2014 9:32am

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Lidl, Aldi and the An Post delivery deal with Amazon have done more to moderate the Irish cost of living than anything the government could manage to think up.

That would mean that ultimately government policy's have little effect on business...business will do what best for themselves and new technologies can always subvert regulation.

Rightwing · 20-10-2014 10:36am

mariaalice wrote: »

That would mean that ultimately government policy's have little effect on business...business will do what best for themselves and new technologies can always subvert regulation.

Government policy has a massive affect on business. Mainly negative with punitive rates etc.

Geuze · 20-10-2014 4:24pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Having been to the Wetherspoons got my thinking of this.

Are some section of the Irish economy wildly profitable and out of proportion to the profit made in other economies the said groups operate in.

For example is Diageo more profitable in the Irish economy than in other economies they operate in.

Yes, well known and reported on.

Diageo sell beer at higher prices ex-duty in the RoI than they do in the UK.

Of course they do, as they are dominant here.

So Guinness cans are much dearer here than in NI, even after accounting for VAT and duty.

C&C, when they launched into NI, said their profits there would be lower, due to less pricing power.

realitykeeper · 21-10-2014 12:44am

I think foreign retailers should be discouraged from setting up in Ireland even if the only way to do this legally is to increase the 12.5% corporate tax for the entire retail sector. Beverage manufacturers ought to be encouraged to export everything they produce in this country by ratcheting up tax on their products for the domestic market or on businesses that sell alcohol. The culture around alcohol consumption must be killed off and consigned to history and to do this effectively may require brutal methods. The government missed an opportunity to do this in the budget.

Cookie_Monster · 22-10-2014 1:35am

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think foreign retailers should be discouraged from setting up in Ireland even if the only way to do this legally is to increase the 12.5% corporate tax for the entire retail sector.

what does that achieve apart from removing competition and leading to price rises and limited availability of product?

realitykeeper wrote: »

Beverage manufacturers ought to be encouraged to export everything they produce in this country by ratcheting up tax on their products for the domestic market or on businesses that sell alcohol. The culture around alcohol consumption must be killed off and consigned to history and to do this effectively may require brutal methods. The government missed an opportunity to do this in the budget.

why so anti alcohol? why should it specifically be killed off in Ireland but at the same time still encourage product for export?

realitykeeper · 22-10-2014 1:00pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what does that achieve apart from removing competition and leading to price rises and limited availability of product?

why so anti alcohol? why should it specifically be killed off in Ireland but at the same time still encourage product for export?

Foreign retailers don`t produce anything so the jobs they provide are minimal and their profits get repatriated to their country of origin. Basically they just buy and sell to the Irish at a profit. Without foreign retailers, Irish retailers will fill the void, there may be less choice but price competition will not be affected.

If alcohol is exported then it is somebody else`s problem. Admittedly Ireland should export things that are beneficial as opposed to alcohol. Take Israel for example, they export processed fruit and veg, - these things are good for people. Our colder climate may not be conducive to such exports but other than playing to our strengths, I am not suggesting that Ireland should ape everything Israel does. Brewing/distilling alcohol products is not something to be proud of, it is something to be ashamed of. Crushing the alcohol industry will force the brewers/distillers/alcohol retailers to either change to another more beneficial line of business or go bust. Either way is fine.

Nody · 22-10-2014 2:45pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Foreign retailers don`t produce anything so the jobs they provide are minimal and their profits get repatriated to their country of origin. Basically they just buy and sell to the Irish at a profit. Without foreign retailers, Irish retailers will fill the void, there may be less choice but price competition will not be affected.

Really? So you think Ireland would be the first case in the world when nationalistic pricing by high tariffs would somehow produce lower prices? Because that's a nobel prize in the making if you can show how...

If alcohol is exported then it is somebody else`s problem. Admittedly Ireland should export things that are beneficial as opposed to alcohol. Take Israel for example, they export processed fruit and veg, - these things are good for people. Our colder climate may not be conducive to such exports but other than playing to our strengths, I am not suggesting that Ireland should ape everything Israel does. Brewing/distilling alcohol products is not something to be proud of, it is something to be ashamed of. Crushing the alcohol industry will force the brewers/distillers/alcohol retailers to either change to another more beneficial line of business or go bust. Either way is fine.

Yes because there would not be any moonshining going on instead (as shown in every region that banned it/raised the tax sky high); no sir we are buying all this sugar and yeast for making buns and cakes...

realitykeeper · 22-10-2014 7:55pm

Nody wrote: »

Really? So you think Ireland would be the first case in the world when nationalistic pricing by high tariffs would somehow produce lower prices? Because that's a nobel prize in the making if you can show how...

Yes because there would not be any moonshining going on instead (as shown in every region that banned it/raised the tax sky high); no sir we are buying all this sugar and yeast for making buns and cakes...

Why are you talking about "nationalistic pricing by high tariffs" ... ? Oh I know what happened, you must have thought you were responding to someone else.

As for illegal activity, the solution is penal servitude and lots of it. Backbreaking work with whip wielding guards and razor wire ought to do nicely. To make it profitable, the prisoners could sleep under the stars and live on a bowl of gruel per day.

Greyian · 22-10-2014 8:03pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Why are you talking about "nationalistic pricing by high tariffs" ... ? Oh I know what happened, you must have thought you were responding to someone else.

As for illegal activity, the solution is penal servitude and lots of it. Backbreaking work with whip wielding guards and razor wire ought to do nicely. To make it profitable, the prisoners could sleep under the stars and live on a bowl of gruel per day.

So we should encourage brewers here to export all of their alcoholic products, thereby becoming a dry country...and then punish people who brew their own alcohol?

Utterly ridiculous.

realitykeeper · 22-10-2014 9:58pm

Greyian wrote: »

So we should encourage brewers here to export all of their alcoholic products, thereby becoming a dry country...and then punish people who brew their own alcohol?

Utterly ridiculous.

No it is common sense.

Greyian · 22-10-2014 9:59pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is common sense.

So you believe we should try to eradicate alcohol consumption completely?

Cookie_Monster · 23-10-2014 2:52am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Foreign retailers don`t produce anything so the jobs they provide are minimal and their profits get repatriated to their country of origin. Basically they just buy and sell to the Irish at a profit. Without foreign retailers, Irish retailers will fill the void, there may be less choice but price competition will not be affected.

What about Tesco for instance, largest buyer of Irish produced goods, employ about 13,000 people, pay a big whack of taxes, sponsor lots of Irish charitable groups and by their presence in the market along force price competition. Do you honestly believe if Tesco, Lidl, Aldi etc all disappeared in the morning Dunnes Stores wouldn't control the vast majority of their former sites and market share and increase prices to pay for that. With a near monopoly on the market who's going to stop them from doing it, no local Irish store is going to be able to grow to fill the gap without being purposely targeted out of business.

Price competition in Ireland in certain sectors is pretty poor anyway because of limited suppliers, if you try to limit them even further how is it not going to be impacted upon?

realitykeeper wrote: »

If alcohol is exported then it is somebody else`s problem. Admittedly Ireland should export things that are beneficial as opposed to alcohol. Take Israel for example, they export processed fruit and veg, - these things are good for people. Our colder climate may not be conducive to such exports but other than playing to our strengths, I am not suggesting that Ireland should ape everything Israel does. Brewing/distilling alcohol products is not something to be proud of, it is something to be ashamed of. Crushing the alcohol industry will force the brewers/distillers/alcohol retailers to either change to another more beneficial line of business or go bust. Either way is fine.

we export more bananas than most countries and meat and dairy and all sorts of beneficial drugs. All good for you, happy and smiley. You've clearly got some massive anti-alcohol chip on your shoulder though, nothing wrong with it in moderation, like most other things.

oh and aping Israel is not something any civilised country should aim for.

realitykeeper wrote: »

No it is common sense.

how so, it's draconian and dicatorial and achieves nothing but widespread resentment and illegality.

realitykeeper · 23-10-2014 11:07am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What about Tesco for instance, largest buyer of Irish produced goods, employ about 13,000 people, pay a big whack of taxes, sponsor lots of Irish charitable groups and by their presence in the market along force price competition. Do you honestly believe if Tesco, Lidl, Aldi etc all disappeared in the morning Dunnes Stores wouldn't control the vast majority of their former sites and market share and increase prices to pay for that. With a near monopoly on the market who's going to stop them from doing it, no local Irish store is going to be able to grow to fill the gap without being purposely targeted out of business.

Price competition in Ireland in certain sectors is pretty poor anyway because of limited suppliers, if you try to limit them even further how is it not going to be impacted upon?

we export more bananas than most countries and meat and dairy and all sorts of beneficial drugs. All good for you, happy and smiley. You've clearly got some massive anti-alcohol chip on your shoulder though, nothing wrong with it in moderation, like most other things.

oh and aping Israel is not something any civilised country should aim for.

how so, it's draconian and dicatorial and achieves nothing but widespread resentment and illegality.

I am not disputing the good things Tesco does. The point I am making is that if it were not foreign then the profits which are not re-invested would remain in Irish ownership. Foreign retailers make their money from the Irish domestic market. By contrast, foreign owned manufacturers generally make something which is exported so they make most of their money from abroad and they use this money to pay their Irish based workforce. This is why foreign owned manufacturers make a positive contribution to the Irish economy while foreign owned retailers ultimately cause money to be lost from the Irish economy.

(On a personal note, I recently got rid of my car and started using a bicycle. Since then I found a new appreciation for the small and local over the out of town shopping center. I understand people love their cars and the big shopping centers are very convenient but that is off topic)

Ireland does export a lot of good things but the country would export even more good things and less bad things if brewers/distillers manufactured and sold something good instead of the poison of your choice.

realitykeeper · 23-10-2014 11:08am

Greyian wrote: »

So you believe we should try to eradicate alcohol consumption completely?

Of course, along with all other social ills.

chopper6 · 23-10-2014 11:10am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Of course, along with all other social ills.

How?

By having a quasi-religious militia like the Taliban?

Greyian · 23-10-2014 11:13am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Of course, along with all other social ills.

In moderation, alcohol is healthy.
In excess, water is deadly.

Should we seek to discourage water consumption?

realitykeeper · 23-10-2014 11:50am

Greyian wrote: »

In moderation, alcohol is healthy.
In excess, water is deadly.

Should we seek to discourage water consumption?

Anything is bad in excess. (More common sense for you).

There is nothing moderate about the level of alcohol consumption in this country. You would not give alcohol to a child so why give it to the irresponsible Irish?

chopper6 · 23-10-2014 12:14pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Anything is bad in excess. (More common sense for you).

There is nothing moderate about the level of alcohol consumption in this country. You would not give alcohol to a child so why give it to the irresponsible Irish?

Get a grip.

realitykeeper · 23-10-2014 9:40pm

chopper6 wrote: »

Get a grip.

Temper, temper.

Cookie_Monster · 24-10-2014 1:04am

realitykeeper wrote: »

There is nothing moderate about the level of alcohol consumption in this country.

that's a big brush you have

realitykeeper wrote: »

You would not give alcohol to a child so why give it to the irresponsible Irish?

what about the responsible Irish? Or are they only the ones that don't drink in your eyes?

what about those companies that produce club and tayto, sugary, fatty foods. Want to ban them as well?

mariaalice · 24-10-2014 8:35am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Of course, along with all other social ills.

Your general view on this forum is to advocate personal responsibility, however when it come to alcohol it is the governments responsibility to save people from alcohol? l i.e its the governments/society responsibility to keep alcohol form the alcoholic as opposed to it being the responsibility of the alcoholic to not indulge in alcohol knowing they have an addictive personality.

Is there not a contradiction in some of your arguments.

realitykeeper · 24-10-2014 11:34am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about those companies that produce club and tayto, sugary, fatty foods. Want to ban them as well?

It is not fair to target specific brands but the government ought to move against all social ills. This includes an unhealthy diet because the taxpayer cannot afford to pay for the consequences.

realitykeeper · 24-10-2014 11:37am

mariaalice wrote: »

Your general view on this forum is to advocate personal responsibility, however when it come to alcohol it is the governments responsibility to save people from alcohol? l i.e its the governments/society responsibility to keep alcohol form the alcoholic as opposed to it being the responsibility of the alcoholic to not indulge in alcohol knowing they have an addictive personality.

Is there not a contradiction in some of your arguments.

Where you have an immature population the government should take charge. In the long term, it would help if the Irish became more philosophic and less drunk.

chopper6 · 24-10-2014 11:38am

realitykeeper wrote: »

It is not fair to target specific brands but the government ought to move against all social ills. This includes an unhealthy diet because the taxpayer cannot afford to pay for the consequences.

People will eat what they want to eat...the Govt has no remit to force people to eat healthily.

realitykeeper · 25-10-2014 3:04am

chopper6 wrote: »

People will eat what they want to eat...the Govt has no remit to force people to eat healthily.

People ought to be accessed on their diet (among other things) and their social insurance charges adjusted accordingly for the cover of their health care. Bon appitit.

Permabear · 25-10-2014 6:28am

This post has been deleted.

Into The Blue · 25-10-2014 6:34am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Why are you talking about "nationalistic pricing by high tariffs" ... ? Oh I know what happened, you must have thought you were responding to someone else.

As for illegal activity, the solution is penal servitude and lots of it. Backbreaking work with whip wielding guards and razor wire ought to do nicely. To make it profitable, the prisoners could sleep under the stars and live on a bowl of gruel per day.

Seems you got lost on the way to after hours.
Nowt wrong with brewing and distilling.

realitykeeper · 25-10-2014 9:26am

Into The Blue wrote: »

Nowt wrong with brewing and distilling.

I disagree. The inebriated state of youngsters falling out of nightclubs in the early hours and the antics of the whole lot of them would make the final days of Sodom and Gomorrah look like Wonderly Wagon.

Competition

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