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Archaeoastronomy at megalithic sites

  • 16-09-2013 9:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    One of my earliest memories of being really fascinated about something was hearing about the alignment at Newgrange as a young lad.

    I've always been interested in megalithic astronomical alignments - I'm no expert in the field and I know there is much debate about them. However you can't really argue about the beautiful yet technically amazing alignment at Newgrange.

    I've been working on a log for the last couple of weeks and with the Autumn Equinox coming up I thought people might be interested in it here.

    http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

    I've been using a facebook page to add updates etc.

    https://www.facebook.com/MegalithicArcheoAstronomy

    I'm hoping to log all suspected alignments in Ireland and for it to be resource for people if they want to check out their local alignment. With enough people interested it may be able to come up with photographic evidence to turn suspected alignments in confirmed and to see if any pattern emerges.

    Also if any has any to add that aren't on it to date please post here to let me know.

    Thanks


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 47 Witchburner


    Thanks man


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I think Frank T. Prendergast's (at DIT) work might be worth a look if you haven't already seen his papers.
    I have the feeling that he's visited and gathered data for most sites in Ireland but a quick google doesn't bring up any links.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    thanks for that - some of his papers are here

    http://arrow.dit.ie/do/search/?q=author_lname%3A%22Prendergast%22%20author_fname%3A%22Frank%22&start=0&context=490738

    Frank seems to think that the sites he has surveyed are more related to the moon than the sun.
    He could be correct but there is no doubt that some are aligned to the sun as well as the moon.

    Ronan Hicks posted a very interest papering on my facebook page, he wrote about observations at Drombeg regarding the type and profile of stones also being important rather than what can only be calculated by looking at a plan of a site. For example at Drombeg there are only two of the stones below the horizon where the land meets the sea, this also happens to be where the winter solstice sunrise occurs.
    http://www.academia.edu/3409427/The_Year_at_Drombeg
    http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~tlaloc/archastro/ae9.html

    I'm not claiming any particular mathematical knowledge - I just want to try and record as many of the possible alignments together in one place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    'Prehistoric Astronomy and Ritual' by Aubrey Burl might be worth a read. The book deals largely with Britain but still very relevant. I'll post up some bits and pieces from it later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    'Prehistoric Astronomy and Ritual' by Aubrey Burl might be worth a read. The book deals largely with Britain but still very relevant. I'll post up some bits and pieces from it later.

    Thanks Coles - I have "A guide to the stone circles of Great Britain, Ireland & Brittany" - surprisingly few references to astronomical alignments at the Irish stone circles in it.

    By the way the database doesn't have to be only for Ireland - I would hope to expand it out to all the British Isles at some stage.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    It might be no harm to have a wander through Megalithomania.
    There isn't very much on solar/stellar/lunar alignments but as a gazetteer, it could be useful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    The difficulty is that each cultural grouping had a different interest or emphasis when they laid out their megalithic structures. I think it would be necessary to focus on a specific time period, monument type and geographic region to find coherent information that would cast light on the belief systems of the people themselves.

    With reference to the older megalithic structures...

    While undoubtedly there are alignments that can be seen from the monuments themselves (or from within the monuments), I have been working on an idea that the monuments might have a further significance within the wider landscape, particularly the more prominent cairns or passage graves.

    Imagine looking towards a cairn on a hilltop from the landscape below. Somewhere on the landscape are the locations from which significant astronomical observations can be made in conjunction with that hilltop cairn. It might be the Winter or Summer Solstice, or the extremes of the rising moon over it's 19 year cycle, but it would be significant as a symbol of rebirth or resurrection, or simply as a way to mark the passage of time. What more powerful symbol of rebirth that to have the sun or moon rising from the burial place of your ancestors!

    Perhaps there are secondary monuments within the landscape for making the astronomical observations from?

    Just a thought...


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    The difficulty is that each cultural grouping had a different interest or emphasis when they laid out their megalithic structures. I think it would be necessary to focus on a specific time period, monument type and geographic region to find coherent information that would cast light on the belief systems of the people themselves.

    With reference to the older megalithic structures...

    While undoubtedly there are alignments that can be seen from the monuments themselves (or from within the monuments), I have been working on an idea that the monuments might have a further significance within the wider landscape, particularly the more prominent cairns or passage graves.

    Imagine looking towards a cairn on a hilltop from the landscape below. Somewhere on the landscape are the locations from which significant astronomical observations can be made in conjunction with that hilltop cairn. It might be the Winter or Summer Solstice, or the extremes of the rising moon over it's 19 year cycle, but it would be significant as a symbol of rebirth or resurrection, or simply as a way to mark the passage of time. What more powerful symbol of rebirth that to have the sun or moon rising from the burial place of your ancestors!

    Perhaps there are secondary monuments within the landscape for making the astronomical observations from?

    Just a thought...

    I think that is well accepted (central cairn theory) Coles - for instance there are approximately 8 wedge tombs in the Slieve Felim area all with their "aspect" towards the Mahurslieve or Mothers Mountain. The Mahurslieve has a cairn on top of it and their is folklore attached to this cairn that their is a cave within. One theory is that some sites are aligned towards a central "omphalos" or naval. For example the Hill of Uisneach could be described as the naval of Ireland. I don't know if you have read the books "The Modern Antiquarian" or "The Modern European" by Julian Cope. Both deal with this idea. I'm sure there are more academic books on the subject as well.


    As you say above the various monuments are from different eras and as such could have widely different reasons for their construction.
    For me there is no central point on the net with information on where their are potential alignments. So that is the first thing I want to achieve. For instance myself I'm debating whether to head to Shrough Passage Tomb to observe the equinox rising sun this weekend. Unfortunately it probably means getting up at 3am to do so!
    I've been lucky enough to see the sun rise over the Grange Lios in Limerick on the Summer Solstice and to almost see the sun set at Knockroe in Kilkenny. I attended the equinox in Loughcrew once but unfortunately it was a cloudy morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I think that is well accepted (central cairn theory) Coles - for instance there are approximately 8 wedge tombs in the Slieve Felim area all with their "aspect" towards the Mahurslieve or Mothers Mountain. The Mahurslieve has a cairn on top of it and their is folklore attached to this cairn that their is a cave within. One theory is that some sites are aligned towards a central "omphalos" or naval. For example the Hill of Uisneach could be described as the naval of Ireland.
    Sure, but my point was that there would be a point in the landscape from which there would be astronomical conjunctions involving the prominent cairn, not just that the structures would be aligned to other structures, or to a significant mountain such as is the case with the cairns in Carrowmore which are aligned to Knocknarae)

    Imagine a point on the landscape from which you would need to be to observe the setting of the Midsummer sun over the Hill of Uisneach. There are numerous such points that trace a line across the landscape but there would also be points of intersection where different 'observation lines' meet that could have special significance. (As an example the point where you could observe the rising of Winter Solstice sun over Slieve na Calliagh in the morning and it setting over the Hill of Mael in the evening of the same day. This could only be done from a specific point in the landscape).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Here's a great program for looking at the location of the sun and moon rises throughout the year.

    http://photoephemeris.com/tpe-for-desktop


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    Sure, but my point was that there would be a point in the landscape from which there would be astronomical conjunctions involving the prominent cairn, not just that the structures would be aligned to other structures, or to a significant mountain such as is the case with the cairns in Carrowmore which are aligned to Knocknarae)

    Imagine a point on the landscape from which you would need to be to observe the setting of the Midsummer sun over the Hill of Uisneach. There are numerous such points that trace a line across the landscape but there would also be points of intersection where different 'observation lines' meet that could have special significance. (As an example the point where you could observe the rising of Winter Solstice sun over Slieve na Calliagh in the morning and it setting over the Hill of Mael in the evening of the same day. This could only be done from a specific point in the landscape).

    I get you now - however unless mesolithic /neolithic / bronze / iron age man left something there like a stone or post holes it is always going to conjuncture I'm afraid.

    There was a thread on www.themodernantiquarian.com about a very prominent standing stone in the mountains in waterford. An irish poster proposed that the equinox sun rose over it from the top of a prominent hill to the west and that this was an alignment. However personally I think that is outside what would be considered an alignment. I do however think that the sun setting / rising in a notch or over a prominent hill while viewed from a monument is (eg Drombeg stone circle)

    A recent alignment I read in one of Frank Prendergasts paper that I thought was very interesting was from a passage tomb in Thomastown (part of the Carrowkeel complex) the sun sets over Cairn T on the summer solstice which sounds pretty impressive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I get you now - however unless mesolithic /neolithic / bronze / iron age man left something there like a stone or post holes it is always going to conjecture I'm afraid.
    I fully agree. I have found a couple of interesting alignments over the years but it's an extremely difficult thing to be sure about with the changes in altitude between the horizon and the place of observation. As GIS mapping programs improve it will become much quicker and easier.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Intriguing thread and that link to Ephemeris is wonderful - thanks Coles.

    I'm looking at a site at the moment where two monuments appear to align with moonrise at the winter solstice. The angle is perfect but the projected line misses the upper monument by a few hundred metres. This makes it difficult to confirm the hypothesis.
    However, it is very possible that the alignment was more accurate when the monuments were constructed many thousands of years ago.
    Does anyone know of any sources (preferably online) which might help in calculating how much variance would have occurred with shifts in the Earth's orbit etc.?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    slowburner wrote: »
    Intriguing thread and that link to Ephemeris is wonderful - thanks Coles.

    I'm looking at a site at the moment where two monuments appear to align with moonrise at the winter solstice. The angle is perfect but the projected line misses the upper monument by a few hundred metres. This makes it difficult to confirm the hypothesis.
    However, it is very possible that the alignment was more accurate when the monuments were constructed many thousands of years ago.
    Does anyone know of any sources (preferably online) which might help in calculating how much variance would have occurred with shifts in the Earth's orbit etc.?
    The position of the moonrise undergoes a 19 year cycle (the Metonic Cycle), where it 'wanders' across the horizon and then returns to start the cycle again. An alignment of a Moonrise on one particular Winter Solstice would be unlikely to be significant unless it marked the extremities of the cycle.

    The difference in elevation between the point of observation and the horizon could easily introduce errors in figuring out these alignments, although this can be sorted out with some complex sums. The Ephemeris has a function to tell you the elevation at the points of interest, and the elevation angle between them, but it's probably not necessary to go quite so deep in finding interesting alignments.

    Knowth would appear to be a Lunar calender and it's amazing just how complex the calculations were. 'Irish Symbols of 3500BC' by NL Thomas gives a fascinating interpretation of the carvings of the 'calender' kerbstone K15, and the other stones in the monument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Here's an interesting one. If you were standing at Newgrange at the end of July you would see the sun rise directly over Dowth and set over Knowth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    Here's an interesting one. If you were standing at Newgrange at the end of July you would see the sun rise directly over Dowth and set over Knowth.

    Did you figure that out on the ephemeris Coles or heard of it elsewhere? I'm currently re-reading Martin Brennans book "The Stones of Times" which is a fantastic account of Martin and his group of amateur researchers discovering alignments at Loughcrew and various others. I've most of them on the database currently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    bawn79 wrote: »
    Did you figure that out on the ephemeris Coles or heard of it elsewhere? I'm currently re-reading Martin Brennans book "The Stones of Times" which is a fantastic account of Martin and his group amateur researcher discovering alignments at Loughcrew and various others. I've most of them on the database currently.
    I figured it out using the empemeris while trying to get my head around the 'Minor Lunar alignments' that are supposed to exist between Knowth/Newgrange and Dowth/Newgrange.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    I figured it out using the empemeris while trying to get my head around the 'Minor Lunar alignments' that are supposed to exist between Knowth/Newgrange and Dowth/Newgrange.

    I know that Minor Lunar alignments exist but to be honest I couldn't tell you how to calculate where they will appear. I visited Callanish for the lunar standstill in 2006. It was an amazing spectacle, the moon skirts along the top of the range of mountains know as "sleeping beauty" disappears behind a mountain and then reappears again aligned to the main axis of Callanish stone circle. To see a simulated version check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as. I haven't watched this in years so I don't know how well it will stand the test of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    There are also apps now available for a smart-phone to tell you where the sun rises & sets from a particular position. Might be of interest.

    http://appadvice.com/appguides/show/sun-seeker-apps


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    The difficulty is that these apps and other programs assume that the viewer and the horizon are at the same elevation. Unfortunately this makes them almost unusable particularly in mountainous areas. It won't be long before some clever person brings out an app that takes into account these issues and this should make life a little easier.

    Here are the equations to calculate the position of sunrise while also taking into account the differences in elevation between the viewer and the horizon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    The difficulty is that these apps and other programs assume that the viewer and the horizon are at the same elevation. Unfortunately this makes them almost unusable particularly in mountainous areas. It won't be long before some clever person brings out an app that takes into account these issues and this should make life a little easier.

    Here are the equations to calculate the position of sunrise while also taking into account the differences in elevation between the viewer and the horizon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation

    Coles

    The Sun-Seeker one I have shows a 3D view on the screen of the phone. It shows where the sun transits through the day on any given day. Therefore it will show where the sun sets or rises behind a mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkPv-edUQ4


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    bawn79 wrote: »
    Coles

    The Sun-Seeker one I have shows a 3D view on the screen of the phone. It shows where the sun transits through the day on any given day. Therefore it will show where the sun sets or rises behind a mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkPv-edUQ4
    Wow! I didn't realise that. That is brilliant. I'm getting that.

    You have to be on location for it to work obviously? It doesn't help with desk studies?

    Many thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    And any chance of 'MoonSeeker'?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    Wow! I didn't realise that. That is brilliant. I'm getting that.

    You have to be on location for it to work obviously? It doesn't help with desk studies?

    Many thanks.

    Doesn't help with desk studies but your photographers ephemeris does that (although it would be handy if bing maps was an option also as bing has better resolution for some areas that google doesn't).

    I'm not sure if their is a moon seeker - just googled their is one! I'm getting that so as well! No need for calculations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I'm up to 72 alignments on the database currently. I think I will be struggling after this to find many. Although I'm hoping to get Clive Ruggles book from the library and add in his lunar alignments for the stone rows of Cork / Kerry. I've read a few of his papers on them and he seems to confirm them as being the original intent of the builders.

    http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I'm up to 72 alignments on the database currently. I think I will be struggling after this to find many. Although I'm hoping to get Clive Ruggles book from the library and add in his lunar alignments for the stone rows of Cork / Kerry. I've read a few of his papers on them and he seems to confirm them as being the original intent of the builders.

    http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

    I've managed to update the database to 85 alignments. http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

    You can see the potential sun-rise alignments for the upcoming cross quarter day on the 7th Nov - here.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=711448025551380&set=pb.607479465948237.-2207520000.1383154470.&type=3&theater

    The sunset alignments are here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=711451408884375&set=pb.607479465948237.-2207520000.1383154470.&type=3&theater

    If anyone has any further info on alignments in Ireland please do contact me - does anyone know if Frank Prendergast is finished his PHD on the passage tomb alignments in Ireland?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Its a little bit off topic, but Loughcrew has been a fascination of mine since I was brought there by my dad as a kid.

    From what Martin Brennan's Stones of Time, indicates, is that Loughcrew is effectively a calender, with Cairns T and L being the only ones fully intact and functional (from memory this is correct also)
    I also came across another book by Paul Deveroux, called stone age soundtracks, which examined the acoustics of megalithic structures, and it turns out, most of them resonate at a very similar frequency.

    It then occurred to me that perhaps the stone basins that seem to have been present at many of these locations may have a different purpose.

    Fill them with water, light a fire outside, put some stones in it, heat them up, and when the sun's rays shine through the light box, chuck said hot stones in the basin = Steam.

    Add a chorus of chanting at the resonant frequency of the structure and you may get a pattern of 397px-Two-point-interference-ripple-tank.JPG interference, that may or may not look something like this image.

    I really want to attempt a recreation of this, especially due to the similarity of such a pattern to many of the rock art (intersecting spirals etc).
    Could it be another aspect of these mysterious ancient people, that they could both move megaliths, master the rhythm of our solar system, and have an understanding of the wave nature of sound and light ?

    Would this deepen their mystery, or explain some of it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Very interesting idea, AngryHippie. I'm not sure how you would research the possibility but I suppose a good starting point would be to figure out if resonance waves can be seen in steam (or smoke?).


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Coles wrote: »
    Very interesting idea, AngryHippie. I'm not sure how you would research the possibility but I suppose a good starting point would be to figure out if resonance waves can be seen in steam (or smoke?).

    There is a guy James Swagger (I don't know him or have never corresponded with him) http://www.jamesswagger.com/ who seemingly is writing a book on the "Megalith Acoustic Mystery". He is an Irish guy and seems to have gotten himself onto the whole Graham Hancock lecture tours thing.

    I've not read his first book but seemingly he thinks that the knowledge to build Newgrange was passed on to the early irish by foreign black people and it has something to do with the Dogon tribe in Mali in West Africa and Sirius.

    However he does claim to have measured all the passage tombs in Ireland and his next book is going to show their acoustic properties.

    Its funny was just reading back and perhaps he is the next Martin Brennan!


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Some work on the acoustics of megalithic tombs was undertaken by Aaron Watson at Maeshowe in 2007 (?) - with mixed results.
    In the chamber, the behaviour of sound was seen to be considerably different from that of the outside world, with the ancient stone walls amplifying noise to create a variety of audio effects.
    http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/tombs/tombacoustics.htm
    It seems unlikely that Maeshowe was intentionally constructed to create infrasound. Helmholtz Resonance is most likely an accidental by-product of the passage grave format, and enhanced by the precision of the stone walling.
    http://www.monumental.uk.com/site/research/proj/acoustics/maeshowe.html


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