Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Law Firm Big 5 Salaries 2012

  • 10-03-2012 7:10pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 48


    Well guys

    In the 3rd yr of a law degree. In the middle of all the summer internship for the Big 5 etc stuff.

    Posting to find out what the starting salary is in the Big 5 if you're lucky enough win the legal lotto and get in!

    I know there's a thread on this from 2009 but I'm guessing salary is much lower now.

    So if anyone knows it would be great to know :)


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    About 35k as far as I know but they vary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 hopefullegal


    Thanks NoQuarter. Do you know by how much they vary? Heard that Maples the best.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    maples is 42k as far as i know. The are all around 35k otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Not bad considering a friend of mine started with a Solicitors in the UK on £19K - I assume it was a reasonble sized company as she has a good degree from Cambridge.

    That may have been a training salary as I know she got a bump to £35K after a while. Maybe its not all doom and gloom here! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    Don't got by salary alone.

    Some of the highly paying positions will make you work (extremely hard) for that, others are more realistic.

    If you can, do an internship. You'll get a proper sense about the place before you have to choose.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 48 hopefullegal


    Thanks GCDLawstudent and Jev/N.

    I know what you mean 35k+ doesn't mean a lot if you're working a 70hr week.

    I'd be interested in hearing opinions on each of the firms as places to work as well as the salaries.

    I've heard from people who did the A&L internship that they a seemed good to work for. Think their pay is at the lower end. But I'd prefer a place with a better culture and training.

    This is assuming I even get my foot in the door of any of them! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    hopefull legal, come back and ask if you manage to secure an internship, at least that way you will be in with a good chance of getting a traineeship! If you cant get the internships, you will need more than luck to get into the firms!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭impr0v


    The above salaries are all trainee salaries, rather than starting salaries for newly-qualified lawyers. The big five paid in or about 50k to new qualifiers, last I heard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 hopefullegal


    NoQuarter just want to have all the info so I'm fully informed :). Seeing if the pay differential between London (which is completely transparent in salary info for trainees and NQs on rollonfriday.co.uk) and Dublin (which has zero transparency on a firm by firm basis) means I should focus all my efforts on London.

    Impr0v I've actually heard from fairly reliable sources that NQs are 60-65k. I could be wrong though!

    It would be great to put together a comprehensive list of starting and NQ salaries here. Information is power and all that! No idea why the Dublin firms are so secretive...


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 josephotoole91


    A&L was €35,000 in 2010 according to a friend who got a TC. Could be more or less now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Should have become a solicitor :eek:

    :D


    On a serious note: do the "boutique firms" pay more or less than the big 5? I've always wondered what the draw is from the big 5 (other than it looking good on your CV and likely very good basic training).


  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭mitzicat


    If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't :)

    being from a private college GCD, have you tried/been successful for internships?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    On a serious note: do the "boutique firms" pay more or less than the big 5? I've always wondered what the draw is from the big 5 (other than it looking good on your CV and likely very good basic training).

    So, let's recap: other than the higher salaries, the prestiege on your cv and the top class training, there really is no other reason to choose the big firms over small firms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    So, let's recap: other than the higher salaries, the prestiege on your cv and the top class training, there really is no other reason to choose the big firms over small firms.
    Excellent recap of my question, I must say. What is the pay comparison? Presumably you can get excellent training in smaller firms and it's not exclusive to the big 5?

    EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    mitzicat wrote: »
    being from a private college GCD, have you tried/been successful for internships?

    I'm planning on going down the Barrister route - so my contact making is slightly different. I did have an intership sorted in Ghana of all places but I managed to do my back and had to defer a couple of exams so I'm stuck in Ireland for the summer. (Heading off next year though!) Have to admit this was more for the experiance of Ghana than of working for a lawyers firm. It's rather an odd setup there; you wear your suit to work and you are a solicitor - you then stick your wig on and head into court as a barrister.

    Digression aside I dont think I'd stand much chance I just don't have the interest in the solicitor route - although some of the posts ref NQ salaries are tempting :P I'm also 32 so I think I might be a bit past in regards to someone they can mold the way they want!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭impr0v


    EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?

    On-site canteens.

    More seriously, there are one or two mid-size firms that buck the trend but pay is generally better in the big five. There is generally more prestige work for bigger clients, and facilities are usually better. More opportunity to specialise. Training is, I would imagine but don't know for sure, significantly better - the smaller firms can't afford to dedicate the same resources to trainee programs.

    There are obviously downsides to big-firm life too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 hopefullegal


    Is A&L still 35k?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,148 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't :)

    Not if you move to a decent City firm. Any young solicitor/NQ I know who has moved to has done so for a salary far in excess of that.

    Impr0v I've actually heard from fairly reliable sources that NQs are 60-65k. I could be wrong though!

    About 10k lower for the top 5. Somewhere like Maples might pay that though.


    Edit: I wouldn't focus on trainee salary too much. Make sure you look at NQ salary as well. Don't be afraid to ask this if you've any offers. Its hard to difference the big firms but a couple of grand over the course of your training contract isn't something to worry about too much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 DaleWinton


    I know who the Big 5 are but always wondered how do they rank within that 5.

    I'm guessing number one is Arthur Cox and number 5 is William Fry but out of A&L, McCanns and Mops who would be seen as 3rd, 4th and 5th?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Blackrockcomet


    It's very difficult to rank the big 5 as who's no.1 depends on which area you choose. A&L Goodbody have a superior funds team to the other 4 but MOP's tax department would be regarded as better. I believe that McCann Fitz might be the biggest firm based on personnel but I could be wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    It's very difficult to rank the big 5 as who's no.1 depends on which area you choose. A&L Goodbody have a superior funds team to the other 4 but MOP's tax department would be regarded as better. I believe that McCann Fitz might be the biggest firm based on personnel but I could be wrong.

    I assume he meant arrange by salary, what with the thread thats in it! :D


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Excellent recap of my question, I must say. What is the pay comparison? Presumably you can get excellent training in smaller firms and it's not exclusive to the big 5?

    I don't think there is much dispute that the top five firms and a few medium sized boutique operations pay far better than smaller firms. If 35k is the going rate for the big firms, nothing or the law society minimum seems de regiour for small firms.

    As to the quality of training, of course you can get excellent, perhaps better training in a small firm than in a large firm, but that in a sense is missing the point - the perception is that the big firms provide better training and that is a big draw. The perception, albeit not the reality, is that having worked on a €100m, 500 page contract for a complex lease that a residential conveyance should be easy, or that working on a massive commercial litigation file makes a circuit court dispute seem easy. They are differet skills and both require different training - indeed the training provided by a top 5 firm could be useless in a general practice. But the perception is that the training is better, and I suppose there is less liklihood of being a glorified legal secretary in a larger firm.
    EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?

    Possibly, but that's a bit like speculating that if a barristers chambers had an equal admissions policy and paid a liveable wage to new entrants, wouldn't it be a good thing for new entrants. Of course it would, but that assumption is not a partiularly good reason to be in favour of a chambers system. So too it is unwise to assume pay and training are the same in big firms and small firms, leadig to the conclusion that there is little attraction for the big firms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I suppose my logic (personally) would be, get into a medium boutique firm where you can get more personal training and good money rather than be another faceless newbie.

    Point taken about being a glorified legal secretary though.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I suppose my logic (personally) would be, get into a medium boutique firm where you can get more personal training and good money rather than be another faceless newbie.

    Well yes, I mean the ideal would be to work in a firm that is not so big that you are a faceless work drone but not so small that you are pigeon holed into one area, where there is sufficient responsibility given to you to be able to learn fully with the security of an overseeing partner to make sure nothing goes wrong, top dollar without massive hours and nice friendly co-workers and a subsidised canteen.

    However, from what can be pieced together from these threads in boards alone, that is very far from most people's experience of entering the legal profession. Moreover, this is very far removed from the historical reality too. It isn't all that long since securing a fee-paying apprenticeship (that is, you pay the solicitor-master and you work for them for free) was quite a hard thing to do, and securing a non-fee-paying or even a paid apprenticeship was the preserve of a select few firms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭blueythebear


    Having spoken to people who have apprenticed in big firms and small firms, I would say that although there are pros and cons to each.

    In the big firms, you have the high wages and good likelihood of having a well paid job if you're kept on (which is MUCH more likely in a big firm, e.g. top 5 firms kept about 50% of their trainees this year). THe level of training is apparently hit and miss though depending on the particular partner in each rotation and as well as that, you do not get much in the way of responsibility. Also, there is very often a culture of staying late in the Office even if there is nothing to do. I know people who have stayed in the Office till 11 and 12 just because they didn't want to be the first to leave the Office. An extreme example, but indicative of the culture that is present in some firms.

    In the smaller firms, you'll generally get alot more responsibility in terms of running your own files and meeting clients, etc. and you'll be expected to be able to do alot more on your own initiative. Downside is the pay and the fact that your Blackhall fees probably won't be paid. Also, when you qualify, it'll be very difficult to get a job in anything other than a small firm, who generally don't hire that often and certainly not newly qualifieds.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    I know people who have stayed in the Office till 11 and 12 just because they didn't want to be the first to leave the Office. An extreme example, but indicative of the culture that is present in some firms.

    It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.

    10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.

    These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.

    And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.

    Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.

    All that glitters, is not gold.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    krd wrote: »
    It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.

    10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.

    These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.

    And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.

    Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.

    All that glitters, is not gold.

    Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Strawberry Fields


    Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!

    For most of that I thought he was talking about financial services, same game.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!

    The private sector varies greatly. Some places if your well in, you can turn up at 11 and leave by 4 - and if you're well out in the same places they'll expect you to work the sh1ttiest hours, on the sh1ttiest days.

    There are some "face time" tricks to make it look like you're there when you're not.

    1. Switch off the screen saver on your computer.
    2. Put a jacket over your seat.
    3. Leave a set of your car keys on the desk - or at least a set of car keys.

    Make it look like you're there when you're not.

    I've heard, that for the big firm law stuff in London. All of the stuff is boiler plate. They just red pen through what is and isn't applicable. And the rest of the time is purely bollox "face time" - ass kissing clients - looking smort in a smort suit. Etc.

    The firms sack people for the sake of sacking them, because it gives a little share price bump to announce and execute "cost cutting" - doesn't matter they hire replacements nearly straight away - blood letting for the sake of blood letting seems to give the "water voles" of the market a hard on.

    And I've heard too, that even the big firms think their own lawyers are sh1te, and hire in the small firms to do the niggly bits.


Advertisement