Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

totallegend · 25-04-2012 12:22pm

emmet02 wrote: »

Being a soldier doesn't guarantee you as a capable general.

Or more correctly, being an amateur solider then going off and doing something else as a full-time job for 30 years while reading about war in the paper, doesn't make you a capable general.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 12:38pm

leftleg wrote: »

I didn't attack you Justin, just made a statement and began the post by asking that you not take it out of context. Sorry if you deem it an attack on you, it wasn't what i was trying to get at. Either way apologies, alot of your posts are fortright and absolutely on the money so please don't take the post to heart because its not an attack on you as a poster. Cheers and again sorry again.

No worries whatsoever. All good. I wasn't actually getting riled up either. Lets start again

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 12:58pm

totallegend wrote: »

Or more correctly, being an amateur solider then going off and doing something else as a full-time job for 30 years while reading about war in the paper, doesn't make you a capable general.

A tad generalistic in your pigeon-holing and rather pointless, I would say. Compare to other unions. Compared to the branches. Compare to other Association Football governing bodies even.
To keep the 'war' theme going then (where did that one come from?? lol), sitting at home playing 'Risk', watching 'Band of Brothers' or reading 'Commando' doesn't make anyone else outside the sport an expert either.

There. Done.
Thanks

totallegend · 25-04-2012 1:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

A tad generalistic in your pigeon-holing and rather pointless, I would say. Compare to other unions. Compared to the branches. Compare to other Association Football governing bodies even.
To keep the 'war' theme going then (where did that one come from?? lol), sitting at home playing 'Risk', watching 'Band of Brothers' or reading 'Commando' doesn't make anyone else outside the sport an expert either.

There. Done.
Thanks

Ah yes, but I don't watch 'Band of Brothers' and then get put in charge of a parachute regiment. (@emmet02, thanks for the soldier/general analogy...)

The point is, you said that these guys on the various committees had played rugby to a high standard as though this was justification for their decisions in relation to management of the pro game being correct.

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

leftleg · 25-04-2012 1:49pm

We can all be keyboard generals or keyboard doctors/solicitors/barristers so

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 2:26pm

totallegend wrote: »

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

totallegend · 25-04-2012 2:50pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

Yep, I agree. That's why I'm arguing against the changes that are proposed. Ain't broken, don't fix it and so forth.

emmet02 · 25-04-2012 2:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say the setup of the professional game has been pretty successful here in making the game sustainable and manageable. That is why this format has been adopted by other unions.

Having experience in the game itself does help also.

And being changed by the IRFU to achieve ..... ?

profitius · 25-04-2012 2:57pm

totallegend wrote: »

Ah yes, but I don't watch 'Band of Brothers' and then get put in charge of a parachute regiment. (@emmet02, thanks for the soldier/general analogy...)

The point is, you said that these guys on the various committees had played rugby to a high standard as though this was justification for their decisions in relation to management of the pro game being correct.

As far as I know, there aren't too many former pros involved in the IRFU committees, and if you've played amateur rugby in the 70s or 80s, it doesn't qualify you to decide how a professional sports team should be run. Or do you think it does?

The difference is that brawn is no longer required once a player retires. Joe Schmidt forexample is a much better coach than rugby player. He might not have been a great athlete but he understands systems, patterns and how to motivate players.

The IRFU have done a very good job. Its not perfect and there are still areas no doubt where they need to improve but look at Irish rugby now compared to where it was around the time it was dragged into professionalism.

You could argue that things fell into place like the ancient provincial borders etc but plnty of people could have fecked it all up too.

Th one area where they've failed is international rugby. Firing Gatland and hiring EOS for too long and Kidney for too long as well as the silly match win percentage that coaches have to match instead of squad development. Thats the one area where they need to giv the coaches more power and stop interfering.

[Jackass] · 25-04-2012 3:09pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Ulster don't have 9 Non Union Irish qualified players. Are you counting Irish qual. players from abroad? - Court, Black, D'Arcy, Diack. Next year - barring another signing - they will have Afoa, Muller, Pienaar and Payne as NIEs, one of whom will become IQ'd.

Kyriacou, Danielli, Wannenberg and Terblanche are leaving....hopefully with Heineken Winners Medals. They have all been fantastic servants in their own ways, have added tremendously to the team and the steady rise of the team. It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.

Sorry, yeah was counting D'Arcy & Diack (forgot they were IQ) along with Afoa, Wannenburg, Muller, Pienaar, Danielli, Payne & Terblanche.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 3:39pm

emmet02 wrote: »

And being changed by the IRFU to achieve ..... ?

To ensure a depth in pool of home-based players in all positions remains prevalent. Medium to long term planning regarding national panel playerbase and in my view, a welcome review on how it is going.

thomond2006 · 25-04-2012 3:54pm

JustinDee wrote: »

To ensure a depth in pool of home-based players in all positions remains prevalent. Medium to long term planning regarding national panel playerbase and in my view, a welcome review on how it is going.

How will it be decided when two provinces both wish to sign a player for the same position i.e. scrumhalf?

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 4:01pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

How will it be decided when two provinces both wish to sign a player for the same position i.e. scrumhalf?

When the procedure is in place in time for the policy to be fully implemented and announcements regarding it, I'll join in the comments on that, but not before.
Sorry Alan.

thomond2006 · 25-04-2012 4:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

When the procedure is in place in time for the policy to be fully implemented and announcements regarding it, I'll join in the comments on that, but not before.
Sorry Alan.

No problem, I understand.

CatFromHue · 25-04-2012 4:23pm

totallegend wrote: »

Yep, I agree. That's why I'm arguing against the changes that are proposed. Ain't broken, don't fix it and so forth.

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

emmet02 · 25-04-2012 4:29pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

and clearly still haven't. It still doesn't make sense.

There is no carrot, only a stick.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 4:41pm

emmet02 wrote: »

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

and clearly still haven't. It still doesn't make sense.

There is no carrot, only a stick.

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

emmet02 · 25-04-2012 4:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

well considering how massively, massively important the bit that hasn't been figured out is...

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 4:58pm

emmet02 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Apart from deciding which provinces get which players, what doesn't make sense to you?

well considering how massively, massively important the bit that hasn't been figured out is...

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

emmet02 · 25-04-2012 5:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

Read Justin's answer to thomond...

Leinster and Munster and Ulster are competitors.

They've just been handed a "combined" constraint. There is literally no "fair" way to organise the placements bar random chance.

If we've got random chance decided who can sign whom, then it's not an organisation, it's bingo.

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

totallegend · 25-04-2012 5:07pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

The problem here is that for the HEC QF's we had only 3 Irish qualified props staring out of a possible 6. The only replacement props who made it onto the pitch for these games where White and Van der Mervw. White may eventually become Irish qualified but it won't be for what another two years.

So in total the Irish props made up 37.5% of the total players who played prop in the HEC QFs out of the Irish teams.

That's a pretty bad statistic if you ask me.

While I don't agree with the new IRFU rules in full I think in theory they're a good idea. The IRFU hadn't fully worked out the fine details of it before they released it and they should be admonished (is this the correct word? I don't think I've ever used it before!) for that.

Props props props props props props. Does anyone dispute that the problem of NIQ players is only affecting props?

Can anybody can give me a logical argument as to why the IRFU can't use its existing powers to limit the number of foreign props?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 25-04-2012 5:17pm

emmet02 wrote: »

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

When Afoa's contract runs out Leinster gets first chance to sign a NIQ TH since they will have had the longest time without a NIQ TH.

The province with the international starter gets a NIQ TH as backup to start games where the international isn't available and to come off the bench when he is.

The team with the least NIQs contracted gets first choice to pick a NIQ position for next season.

The Irish management will select the first and second choice TH Irish prop and no one will be able to sign a NIQ prop to compete with their positions in their provinces.

Four different ways and none of them would be really fair and someone of them would worry me. If I had my way each team would have 3+1 NIQs and wouldn't be able to sign more than one player per unit (FR, 2ndRow, BR, halfs, centers, back three) and the contract review board could veto individual signings.

emmet02 · 25-04-2012 5:27pm

the problem with loads of these rules, is that for a team to be really competitive, they need more than one option in each spot. By that virtue, so will the Irish squad.

If Leinster supply Ireland with two out-halfs for the next 6N and subsequent international calendar, that's more than 1/4 of the season where we are without those two options. What happens when it's two tight heads from Ulster? And they've no cover available bar a very green academy player? The system will actually reward teams that have IQ players "just below" international consideration.

In specialist positions, cover is needed. Fact. I understand the ideas behind it, but the "bottom line" type of ruling that we've seen isn't going to work without causing resentment and serious difficulties. The system as it is currently "supposed" to be enforced would be far more suitable than the axe wielding effort we're going to see. The board's ability to veto any and all IQ signings should be more than sufficient.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 5:33pm

emmet02 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it? I don't really think so. There are a number of ways to handle it.

You're only guessing that they havent figured it out as well.

Read Justin's answer to thomond...

Leinster and Munster and Ulster are competitors.

They've just been handed a "combined" constraint. There is literally no "fair" way to organise the placements bar random chance.

If we've got random chance decided who can sign whom, then it's not an organisation, it's bingo.

What methods would we use to decide who gets to have a TH NIQ when the rule comes into force that could be unbiased / deemed fair?

A joint committee could easilly decide which signing to allow based on needs. And in a situation where teams are desperate they could also easilly be allowed to push the restrictions as they have done in the past.

It's no disaster. The fact we are that dependant on foreign players to an extent where some people are so terrified by the prospect of relying on Irish players in only 2/3 provinces is a complete joke. That has to change if we ever want to be taken seriously as a tier 1 rugby nation. The safety net of NIQ players is strangling our international prospects and when the IRFU loosen its hold we will all see the benefits.

totallegend · 25-04-2012 5:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That has to change if we ever want to be taken seriously as a tier 1 rugby nation. The safety net of NIQ players is strangling our international prospects and when the IRFU loosen its hold we will all see the benefits.

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:

totallegend wrote:

Props props props props props props. Does anyone dispute that the problem of NIQ players is only affecting props?

Can anybody can give me a logical argument as to why the IRFU can't use its existing powers to limit the number of foreign props?

jacothelad · 25-04-2012 5:46pm

Province A in 2014 signs a very good NIE tight head.
Province B in 2014 loses one and isn't allowed another. They have 2 reasonable Irish guys but after that the cupboard is bare. They are doing well in the Heineken Cup but sadly lose both guys to long term injury. No NIE props can be signed as injury replacements. Step forward the Academy props. Whoop de do. Party time all round then. Now that's what I call contingency planning....not.
Pprovince C did have an NIE tight head but his contract is also up and can't be renewed. Neither can they sign another. Their reliable Irish tight head moves to France for the dosh. They have 4 Irish tight heads who between them couldn't prop up a clothes line. They get beaten out the gate in every scrum and penalised off the park. What do they do? From whence do they materialise the props of the required standard? Do they go to the Irish Prop Bank and borrow one or two?...Oh! hang on, there isn't a big room with a load of props hanging on a wall for the teams to pick. The IRFU have got many things right over the years but this stuff is just crazy. They need to allow the provinces to be professional sides who can compete within the player restrictions already in place.

It doesn't matter which specialist position it is although prop and hooker are obviously more crucial and more 'dangerous' for incompetent / unable / young players.

As for this weekends games, there will be 8 props in the two Irish sides, 6 of which will be Irish including 3 genuine tight heads. One of course is very young and another one may as well be a saggar makers bottom knocker as far as Kidney is concerned.

JustinDee · 25-04-2012 5:51pm

totallegend wrote: »

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work

It isn't bollocks. Not in the slightest nor is it to do with these alleged "lies" of yours. It is your opinion that the coaches are rubbish and that the selectors are equally rubbish.

Why oppose a move with solid guidelines and parameters aimed to improve the player depth in every position amongst three Irish provinces? If the current method is allowing the current situation to prevail, it is an obvious fact that something needs to change to curtail the situation.
You'd object to a ruling preventing spots being taken up by non-Irish qualified players yet wouldn't object to a prevention by the PAG?
Nobody is blocking non-Irish players completely. Just making sure that there is an avenue for players that are Irish qualified to develop.

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 6:10pm

totallegend wrote: »

That is bollocks, frankly. It was Declan Kidney's scapegoat after the failures of the World Cup and Six Nations but it's disingenuous bordering on outright lies. Poor coaching and team selection prevents us from being a tier 1 nation, but that's another day's work.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:

I'm not going to deny that coaching hasn't been great. I say that all the time on here. Has nothing to do with this discussion though. Either way there is absolutely nothing Kidney can do when there is only one Irish tight head playing with any regularity in the world at the moment.

As for why they can't use the existing setup, are you saying you'd prefer they just make this massive change in approach without announcing it? Is it not obvious why they have to announce it?

irishbucsfan · 25-04-2012 6:13pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Province A in 2014 signs a very good NIE tight head.
Province B in 2014 loses one and isn't allowed another. They have 2 reasonable Irish guys but after that the cupboard is bare. They are doing well in the Heineken Cup but sadly lose both guys to long term injury. No NIE props can be signed as injury replacements. Step forward the Academy props. Whoop de do. Party time all round then. Now that's what I call contingency planning....not.
Pprovince C did have an NIE tight head but his contract is also up and can't be renewed. Neither can they sign another. Their reliable Irish tight head moves to France for the dosh. They have 4 Irish tight heads who between them couldn't prop up a clothes line. They get beaten out the gate in every scrum and penalised off the park. What do they do? From whence do they materialise the props of the required standard? Do they go to the Irish Prop Bank and borrow one or two?...Oh! hang on, there isn't a big room with a load of props hanging on a wall for the teams to pick. The IRFU have got many things right over the years but this stuff is just crazy. They need to allow the provinces to be professional sides who can compete within the player restrictions already in place.

It doesn't matter which specialist position it is although prop and hooker are obviously more crucial and more 'dangerous' for incompetent / unable / young players.

As for this weekends games, there will be 8 props in the two Irish sides, 6 of which will be Irish including 3 genuine tight heads. One of course is very young and another one may as well be a saggar makers bottom knocker as far as Kidney is concerned.

If there were two long term injuries to props, I'm sure an exception can be made. It'd be extremely exceptional circumstances.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2012 6:15pm

JustinDee wrote: »

You'd object to a ruling preventing spots being taken up by non-Irish qualified players yet wouldn't object to a prevention by the PAG?.

Because the new regulations strike most people as draconian and frankly stupid. There are systems already in place to limit the number of foreigners and the PAG or whoever can already stop teams signing players - witness Hines not being offered a new contract. Bringing in such a rigid framework could potentially be counter-productive and if it causes the likes of Nacewa to have to leave then its ridiculous. If Leinster get around the system be re-signing him in a different position or some such tactic then it also makes the rules pointless if they can be worked around that way.

There is also the issue that merely limiting NIQs isn't going to solve anything in and of itself. Witness the enormous amount of time and effort that was put into developing Buckley, yet for all that he remained a sub-standard prop.

Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

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