orange provocation

Varied · 13-07-2012 8:50pm

Where are all the DUP politicians condemning this?

They have the audacity to bleat on about republicans causing trouble yet they stay deafly silent on issues like this.

Thank **** for Sinn fein, otherwise we would have these utter twats marching everywhere and abusing every catholic/nationalist/republican in sight.

philologos · 13-07-2012 8:51pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

It's rather ironic that so many Unionist people choose to come to the Republic to celebrate a holiday that is part of their culture, don't you think?

It's a bank holiday. Some people like to use that as an opportunity to go on a trip, what odds?

alastair · 13-07-2012 8:52pm

Nodin wrote: »

You're taking the piss now.

I'm not - that you choose to get wound up about a bunch of idiots in butlins costumes performing sychronised routines to the Beach Boys in the middle of the road outside a church - in order to wind up people - brings to mind the mind the whole wrestling with a pig quotation. Paying any attention is just enabling them, and ensuring it'll be the same story same, bat channel next year.

southsiderosie · 13-07-2012 8:52pm

forfuxsake wrote: »

Ulster is white, British and Protestant. Everybody else can fúck off.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I wouldnt consider them protestents. Just like I wouldnt define the kkk as being protestent.

To be fair, I am neither white, nor British, nor Protestant, and I quite liked Belfast. Maybe I benefitted somewhat from my third party status; as an older lady once told me "we are nice to outsiders and not so nice to each other".

My feeling was that 95% of people are lovely, but the 5% who are bad are REALLY REALLY bad. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a lot of tacit acceptance of what the 5% does either out of fear, a warped sense of loyalty, an unwillingness to broker outside criticism, or a sense that only the passage of time will really make a difference, so why even bother in the present? That's what can make the North feel so depressing sometimes: when I see videos like this, or the massive UVF bonfire that went up at the entry to the hospital a few years ago, I can't help but think that the inmates are still running the asylum.

gurramok · 13-07-2012 8:54pm

They even put a coffin on one bonfire!
http://www.irishnews.com/news.aspx?storyId=1173472&imageIDlocal=http://www.irishnews.com/PictureArchives/1173472/A05P401-01.jpg

Yeh, lets respect their 'cultural rights' to hate.

philologos · 13-07-2012 8:54pm

Nodin wrote: »

Thats nothing to do with the incident. Do you have a problem condemning this, for some reason?

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

For the record, no, I'm not a loyalist sympathiser, nor am I a republican sympathiser :pac:

Nodin wrote: »

A great deal of it most certainly is about that kind of behaviour. Thats why they want to march through nationalist areas

They as a whole? - I agree that there are a lot of people who are more interested in being provocateurs. At the same time though, I won't say that the 12th of July is inherently rotten, and I do believe a lot of people go out to celebrate with good intentions. I think we need to spend some time understanding this from their perspective instead of sitting back and shouting condemnation.

I don't think it is as simple as many people make it out to be.

Varied · 13-07-2012 8:55pm

philologos wrote: »

It's a bank holiday. Some people like to use that as an opportunity to go on a trip, what odds?

Yep, I love to don my bowler hat and orange sash, go off and abuse some people of Irish/catholic persuasion, better than any holiday. :rolleyes:

philologos · 13-07-2012 8:57pm

Varied wrote: »

Yep, I love to don my bowler hat and orange sash, go off and abuse some people of Irish/catholic persuasion, better than any holiday. :rolleyes:

Read the post I was responding to first, before making such a silly comment.

southsiderosie · 13-07-2012 8:57pm

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

Why does everything regarding the north have to be done 'in equal measure'? This isn't a thread about Republicans, it is about a holiday that is celebrated by loyalists. Can we for once have a conversation about the North that isn't plagued by whataboutery?

Nodin · 13-07-2012 8:58pm

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK? .

Thats good. Its just a shame theres no equal measure on the nationalist side for you to condemn. Unless you're aware of a similar simultaneous rebel session outside a protestant place of worship?

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 8:58pm

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

For the record, no, I'm not a loyalist sympathiser, nor am I a republican sympathiser :pac:

They as a whole? - I agree that there are a lot of people who are more interested in being provocateurs. At the same time though, I won't say that the 12th of July is inherently rotten, and I do believe a lot of people go out to celebrate with good intentions. I think we need to spend some time understanding this from their perspective instead of sitting back and shouting condemnation.

I don't think it is as simple as many people make it out to be.

philologos wrote: »

Location: London, UK

Speaking of nationalism...

pragmatic1 · 13-07-2012 8:58pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

To be fair, I am neither white, nor British, nor Protestant, and I quite liked Belfast. Maybe I benefitted somewhat from my third party status; as an older lady once told me "we are nice to outsiders and not so nice to each other".

My feeling was that 95% of people are lovely, but the 5% who are bad are REALLY REALLY bad. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a lot of tacit acceptance of what the 5% does either out of fear, a warped sense of loyalty, an unwillingness to broker outside criticism, or a sense that only the passage of time will really make a difference, so why even bother in the present? That's what can make the North feel so depressing sometimes: when I see videos like this, or the massive UVF bonfire that went up at the entry to the hospital a few years ago, I can't help but think that the inmates are still running the asylum.

Tbh it isn't just a tiny little minority of unionists that are like that. It's a lot more than many people would be comfortable with. And that's not counting the air of superiority many have towards Irish people. Groups like the IRA don't just materialise out of thin air.

alastair · 13-07-2012 8:59pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

You think only the Nationalists go down South?

Nope - did I say that?

Noreen1 wrote: »

Every year, on the 12th, there are as many Northern reg. cars on the road in Donegal as there are Southern reg. cars.

These people come from both Communities, Protestant and Catholic.
The Protestants tend to gather, and celebrate the day peacefully in areas where there is an existing Protestant Community, though some do venture into traditional "Catholic" areas.

The Catholics tend to disperse more, throughout the County.

Your throwaway comment reveals a lack of understanding of both Communities, tbh.

You reckon? Why's that then?

Noreen1 wrote: »

Not all Protestants/Unionists want to celebrate the day by marching/banging on drums, or commemorating King Billy.

Really!! Any other revelations? You don't think I might have picked up on that from working years with colleagues of various religious persuasions up North?

Noreen1 wrote: »

You might be surprised at just how many want to enjoy a public holiday, without the political/sectarian connotations.

I don't think so - my guess would be a vast majority. Surprised?

Noreen1 wrote: »

It's rather ironic that so many Unionist people choose to come to the Republic to celebrate a holiday that is part of their culture, don't you think?

Not really. No more so that jetting off to Spain would be.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:01pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why does everything regarding the north have to be done 'in equal measure'? This isn't a thread about Republicans, it is about a holiday that is celebrated by loyalists. Can we for once have a conversation about the North that isn't plagued by whataboutery?

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

alastair · 13-07-2012 9:03pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Speaking of nationalism...

That's telling them! The cheek of voicing an opinion from that there London.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:05pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Speaking of nationalism...

I'm an Irishman living in England, what's your point?

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 9:06pm

alastair wrote: »

That's telling them! The cheek of voicing an opinion from that there London.

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 9:06pm

philologos wrote: »

I'm an Irishman living in England, what's your point?

Sure you are.

Chuck Stone · 13-07-2012 9:07pm

philologos wrote: »

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

So you're here to project an image of superior morals, smug virtue and self-righteousness?

southsiderosie · 13-07-2012 9:08pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Tbh it isn't just a tiny little minority of unionists that are like that. It's a lot more than many people would be comfortable with. And that's not counting the air of superiority many have towards Irish people. Groups like the IRA don't just materialise out of thin air.

But I do think that many unionists, regardless of their feelings about Catholics, still look at stuff like flag-burning, etc as something that 'respectable' people don't do. They won't be sending their kids to Catholic school anytime soon, but paramilitary flags and the like are a bit much.

My father grew up in the American South in the 1950s, and he will be the first to tell you that folks in Mississippi are still racist as hell - many high schools still have separate proms for the black kids and the white kids. But despite their leanings, people today aren't going nullify trials for racists who attack blacks the way they did back in the 60s, and Mississippi had some of the fastest growth in American inter-racial marriages over the last ten years.

alastair · 13-07-2012 9:08pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

And what's any of this got to do with where they're posting from? Or should I just peg this down to kneejerk localism?

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:09pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Sure you are.

:rolleyes:

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So you're here to project an image o, superior morals, smug virtue and self-righteousness?

I'm not any better than anyone else. I'm reluctant to jump to conclusions that's all.

Noreen1 · 13-07-2012 9:10pm

philologos wrote: »

It's a bank holiday. Some people like to use that as an opportunity to go on a trip, what odds?

Philologos, it's not the only Bank Holiday in the year - but it certainly is the one that sees a mass exodus of both Communities from Northern Ireland, moreso than any other.

I think it reflects very badly on the Orange Order that the parades have been allowed to become such flashpoints in some areas that moderates from both Communities feel more welcome in the Republic.

I have no issue with Cultural celebrations. Bigotry and Sectarianism, however, are an entirely different matter, and entirely un-Christian, hence the need felt by Protestants, and Catholics to find a neutral place where they are free to celebrate the holiday the way they want to.

I think it's horrendous that they have to leave their homes to be sure of having a peaceful day.
It's an issue that the OO should have addressed years ago.

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.
It's long past time this kind of behaviour was outlawed by the order. Instead, they seem to condone it - thus ensuring that the trouble continues, and peace-loving members of their own Community feel obliged to leave - and come to areas where the Community is Catholic, by majority - yet more tolerant, by far.

I find it ironic - but also very sad.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:11pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I just find it ironic that the normally indefatiguable and strident christian philologos is standing up for racists and sectarianism.

Where there's smoke, there's a burning bush.

Really?

I have no problem condemning provocateurs. I'd rather do so in equal measure if that's OK?

For the record, no, I'm not a loyalist sympathiser, nor am I a republican sympathiser

I'm now standing up for "racists" and "sectarianism"?

alastair · 13-07-2012 9:13pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.

Who do you think has defended, or apologised for their actions, exactly?

southsiderosie · 13-07-2012 9:14pm

philologos wrote: »

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 9:14pm

philologos wrote: »

I'm now standing up for "racists" and "sectarianism"

Good stuff, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

golden lane · 13-07-2012 9:15pm

it is the dying gasp of a people that have lost......how long it will take them to realise that...god knows.....but in their hearts, there is a well desefved pain.....

Benny_Cake · 13-07-2012 9:16pm

philologos wrote: »

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why does everything regarding the north have to be done 'in equal measure'? This isn't a thread about Republicans, it is about a holiday that is celebrated by loyalists. Can we for once have a conversation about the North that isn't plagued by whataboutery?

I guess, a lot of it is down to the perspective I need to bring to this issue.

I've heard people all around me condemn loyalists and unionists as nutters. I'm very skeptical as to whether or not that is the full truth. I prefer to investigate things for myself, and from the looks at it, it looks as if both sides are as bad as eachother to be honest.

So yeah, I want to get a balanced view of the matter rather than spouting what is merely popular.

In terms of my personal identity - I treat a lot of the things I was taught, or inculcated into in Irish society with an open mind. I think in order to get to the truth of things, that's only right and proper.

I haven't heard anyone say that all loyalists and unionists are nutters. Clearly the overwhelming majority are decent people. However, anyone who marches around a church playing provocative songs is either a nutter, or something much worse.

I'm sure if the dissidents in Derry were up to their nutjob activities there would be plenty posted here about that too.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:17pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

Philologos, it's not the only Bank Holiday in the year - but it certainly is the one that sees a mass exodus of both Communities from Northern Ireland, moreso than any other.

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.

Noreen1 wrote: »

I have no issue with Cultural celebrations. Bigotry and Sectarianism, however, are an entirely different matter, and entirely un-Christian, hence the need felt by Protestants, and Catholics to find a neutral place where they are free to celebrate the holiday the way they want to.

I'm not sure if the 12th of July is entirely rotten. Much as I'm not sure that events like Guy Fawke's Night are entirely rotten. It largely depends on what people do with these events that make them count.

Noreen1 wrote: »

Many parades go ahead, peacefully.
However, the same areas, therefore, presumably, the same lodges, cause trouble year after year - and the same apologists show up here defending their actions.
It's long past time this kind of behaviour was outlawed by the order. Instead, they seem to condone it - thus ensuring that the trouble continues, and peace-loving members of their own Community feel obliged to leave - and come to areas where the Community is Catholic, by majority - yet more tolerant, by far.

I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I haven't heard anyone say that all loyalists and unionists are nutters. Clearly the overwhelming majority are decent people. However, anyone who marches around a church playing provocative songs is either a nutter, or something much worse.

I'm sure if the dissidents in Derry were up to their nutjob activities there would be plenty posted here about that too.

For the record, I agree with you.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Good stuff, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

You're coming across as just a little bit silly, and that's in addition to accusing me of lying about my nationality on this thread

I'm simply trying to see what the truth is on this issue.

orange provocation

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