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Rimfire & Centrefire comp Sporting Rifle - August 23rd - MNSCI

  • 26-07-2015 4:09pm
    #1
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    6034073

    Sporting Rifle Competition, Sunday August 23rd, 2015 at the Midlands National Shooting Centre of Ireland (MNSCI)

    As per the post on the last competition thread there will be another sporting rifle competiton held at the MNSCI on Sunday, August 23rd 2015. This date is preliminary but expected to be the actual date.

    This thread will evolve as the date approaches as will the details of the shoots. What i do know is there will be another shoot in the same format as the one held on the 26th July. Any caliber, any sights, any action at two ro three distances. Mag fed, bipod or front sand bag only.

    There is talk of a second, concurrent, competition. It's far to early to speculate on details, but it will involve rimfire shooting as well as centrefire in separate or combined competition.

    The prizes will include a rifle for first place in both competitions and awards for second and third place.


    Jump to post 37, 38 & 39 for competition details.



    the competition will start at 11am sharp and registration will begin at 9:30am. All the usual details needed such as license for the firearms used and insurance.

    I'll update this thread as i get information but would also welcome all input as to how you'd like the competitions to run. In what format, shot count, distances, etc. Bearing in mind one comp will be completely prone, the other comp (rimfire/CF combined) may be three position or benchshot, prone, etc. Any other ideas, opinions, or thoughts you may have would be most welcome and if we can reach a consensus in time for the comp it may well be integrated into the competition.


    As always this is an open competition so all are welcome.
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«13

Comments

  • #2
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    ANOTHER bottle of whiskey!!

    Had a great day, thanks to all involved with organising the event. Delighted that they are putting an emphasis on this type of competition! I really enjoyed the shoot and delighted to come 3rd although unhappy with my own performance!

    Can I make a suggestion for future shoots, a small trophy for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. It doesn't have to be spectacular but it's nice to get a little thing to remember your achievement!


  • #3
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Good idea. After you drink the bottle you forget you entered then wonder how you got the hangover, and the empty bottle doesn't have the same appeal as a trophy. :D

    I'll be starting a new thread over the next day or two for the new comp. Details will, obviously, be light until the exact format is sorted, however it's more to do with giving lads more than enough notice to attend. I'll be adding a poll on the thread to ask certain questions but any input is gratefully received and may lead to it be included in the competitions so post your thoughts, opinions, and ideas when it's up and running.

    After all they are for ye lads so if enough people want something there is no reason it cannot be implemented. For example i'd like:
    • Shots at 100, 200 & 300 yards.
    • Cold bore shot at 300 then work back to 100.
    • Keep the round count at the 20 mark. It's a nice round number and it's no more than a box of ammo regardless of the caliber. Too many rounds and the day can turn expensive, fast.
    • All shooting to be kept prone (and keep the free handed part at 100 yards)
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  • #4
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    Sounds good, on all details we had plenty of time, which was good. Maybe cut the time on one of them so that unless your on the ball the target will drop before you get your 3 rounds off.

    I'd also be a fan of the 300 yards! :D


  • #5
    IrishTarget
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭IrishTarget


    Id be very interested in the .22 rifle shoot. It would draw a bigger crowd.


  • #6
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Was only talking to some of the lads. I wasn't shooting and noticed no-one needed all the time and only one or two needed even half the time.

    So something along the lines of:
    • 3 & 3 at 100. One detail rested the second free hand. Max time of 45 seconds per detail. Total of 1.5 minutes.
    • 3 & 3 at 200. Both rested. Max time of 1 minutes per detail. Total of 2 minutes.
    • 4 & 4 at 300 yards. Both rested. Max time of 2 minutes per detail. Total of 4 minutes.

    Of course the round count could rise if lads want to shoot more.


    As for the rimfire/CF comp. We only touched on the topic before i left so it's not even started in terms of planning. However thinking is along the lines of a weight limit on the rifle or even a caliber limit. IOW varmint calibers only. Other thoughts are rimfire & varmint caliber.

    We are also toying of the idea of running all the comps as individuals so lads can pick and choose which ones they want to enter with the allowance of re-entries to the comps that support it.
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  • #7
    Ziggieire
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Ziggieire


    I dont like the idea of a weight limit. i am sure i would be unable to enter as well as a good few of the lads there. if that happened.


  • #8
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Ziggieire wrote: »
    I dont like the idea of a weight limit. i am sure i would be unable to enter as well as a good few of the lads there. if that happened.
    No more than my own or the Father's.


    The weight limit would only be considered (and i use the word considered and not used because all of this is possibilities and not definites) for the rifles used in the rimfire/C/F comp and not the one that would be held on the Creedmoor range like today.

    IOW that one would still work as we had today with no limits on anything.

    As said we have a few weeks to hammer out the details. Another thought was 50mtr for the .22lr's and 100 for the hmr/wmr family. So if you have a .22lr and i have a hmr i'd shoot at 100 and you at 50 but it'd be the same comp.

    Again the idea is to throw out loads of ideas and see which stick.
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  • #9
    badaj0z
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭badaj0z


    Cass wrote: »

    [*]All shooting to be kept prone (and keep the free handed part at 100 yards)
    [/LIST]

    As the idea behind this competition is to keep it associated with shooting under field conditions, then the emphasis on "rested" and "prone" is inconsistent. Quickly improvised positions are more likely, hence sitting, kneeling and standing should be included. I understand that many shooters do not like the "wobble" associated with these positions but they are necessary if you shoot in the field.


  • #10
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    There are S.T.A.G.S shoots that incorporate kneeling, standing and prone in them. We don't want one type of shooting to merge so much into another that the two styles become essentially the same thing. Hence the reason to stick to one position for this particular shooting.
    As the idea behind this competition is to keep it associated with shooting under field conditions, then the emphasis on "rested" and "prone" is inconsistent.
    Associated with, but not exactly like. Some "creative" discrepancy is allowed for.
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  • #11
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    badaj0z wrote: »
    As the idea behind this competition is to keep it associated with shooting under field conditions, then the emphasis on "rested" and "prone" is inconsistent. Quickly improvised positions are more likely, hence sitting, kneeling and standing should be included. I understand that many shooters do not like the "wobble" associated with these positions but they are necessary if you shoot in the field.

    I agree with you to an extent, but I think the Wdai, Deer Society and Stalk Ireland shoot covers that very well.

    I'd like to see the same format but with most emphasis on speed and a bit more distance. The Safari and Fox snap shoot were brilliant, although I loved it maybe people were out off by the 500 yards in the fox shoot so maybe limit things to 300.


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  • #12
    badaj0z
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭badaj0z


    patsat wrote: »
    I agree with you to an extent, but I think the Wdai, Deer Society and Stalk Ireland shoot covers that very well.

    .

    That may be true but my understanding is that these shoots are closed to members only. The weight debate is interesting in that heavy rifles are a disadvantage when shooting without artificial rests. A string shot standing up,
    unrested, becomes an interesting challenge with a 17 lb rifle. Trying to place a competition in the spectrum of styles is also an interesting discussion. At one extreme we have bench rest, close to that we have F class. At the other extreme we have silhouette shooting. You could argue that one end is mainly equipment and the other end is mainly the person so where do you want the balance?


  • #13
    nastros
    Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭nastros


    How about no 200 maybe so you go straight from 100 to 300 that way it puts that little extra difficulty into it as you dont have the 200 to verify your drops are right. Id even love to see it further out to 500 or even 600 but as patsat said it may end up with people not having the legs for it. The beauty of the current setup is the entire thing can run without the need for swapping and having pit changes. That means the match could accommodate a lot of shooters without much waiting around.


  • #14
    Ziggieire
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Ziggieire


    I second the idea of a 100 to 300 jump.


  • #15
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    Ziggieire wrote: »
    I second the idea of a 100 to 300 jump.

    I'd like to see that too.


  • #16
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    badaj0z wrote: »
    That may be true but my understanding is that these shoots are closed to members only. The weight debate is interesting in that heavy rifles are a disadvantage when shooting without artificial rests. A string shot standing up,
    unrested, becomes an interesting challenge with a 17 lb rifle. Trying to place a competition in the spectrum of styles is also an interesting discussion. At one extreme we have bench rest, close to that we have F class. At the other extreme we have silhouette shooting. You could argue that one end is mainly equipment and the other end is mainly the person so where do you want the balance?

    The Stalk Ireland Shoot is open to everyone with a license and insurance. You have to join to Wdai to shoot their shoot but that's not the end of the world.


  • #17
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The point about this specific discipline/shoot is it's not meant to cover all aspects of sporting/stalking/field shooting. As i said above and in the other thread there are other shoots in the MNSCI that cater to most of the different styles and to avoid too much cross over between them which results in one shoot becoming the exact same as the other we set certain aspects and alter others.

    The F-Class shooting in the Midlands has taken up a lot of time, energy and money over the years. That is well and truly up and running and able to tick along at it's own pace. The clay pigeon range, while not completely finished, is now also well up and running, so the focus is now going back to sporting rifle shoots to include rimfire, centrefire, STAGS, running targets, McQueens, etc.

    The shoot on the weekend presented the first of these comps and due to it's popularity will be continued. There will be another comp run on the same day and the idea is to attract people back into the shooting. It must be such a format so as to facilitate the majority of people.

    I for one am not comfortable with my kneeling or standing/free hand shooting (that is no one's fault but my own and something i need to work on). I know many others that are the same. There are those that like/prefer this kind of shooting but so as not to deter new shooters, and those like myself we try to keep it simple, but challenging at the same time.

    Down the road the STAGS shoots, running targets, etc will be ran and as i said some time ago depending on which comps draw the most interest there is a possibility of a league being formed.
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  • #18
    nastros
    Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭nastros


    Dont the bulls eye competitions cover a lot of the kneeling and standing shooting anyway.


  • #19
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    They do.

    That is point i'm making about all this. There are loads of different comps to choose from. Until we get all of them up and running, fully, we work on the ones people have shown the most interest in and go from there. Rest assured they will all get going eventually.

    I'll be adding a poll shortly with plenty of options. Pick the one that best suits your likes. I'll limit it to one choice per vote, but i'll add as many as i can without making it confusing.

    One thing first, is everyone happy enough with the 20 round limit? I know a few would like more, but i think 20 is just right.
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  • #20
    nastros
    Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭nastros


    20 round makes sense to me especially if there is talk of having a few competitions in the one day. If I wanted to shoot more than one competition im already into probably 40 rounds.


  • #21
    1jay1
    Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭1jay1


    I'd like to be able to shoot my "factory" single shot "sporting rifle" - RPA Interceptor 6.5x55 - it's my only CF hunting rifle. I missed out on the shoot yesterday as I don't have a mag fed rifle and I'd love to enter a shoot like this.
    Any plans to allow single shot sporting rifles in the future?


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  • #22
    German pointer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭German pointer


    As I use a muzzel break when hunting I find my accuracy affected when I have to take it off for competitions and I'm probably not the only one in this boat. Could there be 2 stages of each shoot. Stage 1 lads with mods and unbreaked guns shoot and lads with breaked guns shoot stage 2. Everyone gets to shoot as they do in the field without the muzzel breaks upsetting the unbreaked shooters. And this would only add a little time to the overall shoot.
    Givein the inconsistencies in various AGS divisions in getting mods licenced, that help "tame" larger calibers the shooters that have mods have I think an advantage over the lads who can't use mods.
    This I think would help even the playing field so to speak and let lads shoot the hunting competitions the same way they shoot their quarry in the field.


  • #23
    badaj0z
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭badaj0z


    Democracy in action Cass. You are creating a new class for competitive shooters. We all know the rules for the existing classes. They are laid down in rule books and only changed at the AGM Of the governing bodies. ISSF is the classic example. Bench rest and F Class are similar. You are creating a new type of competition with a white slate and I compliment you on this. Most people posting so far(including me), would like a setup which suits them. What you have to find, is the (happy) medium, which suits most people and annoys the least people. Good luck with this and I will participate in whatever you create.


  • #24
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    badaj0z wrote: »
    Democracy in action Cass. You are creating a new class for competitive shooters.
    I'm not creating anything lad.

    There are dozens of shooting disciplines including F-Class, Benchrest, Gallery rifle, Pistol, Clays, etc, etc. All with their own set of rules (either national or international).

    What the guys in the Midlands are trying to do is set up a comp that people not only want to attend, but can do so regardless of the rifle/rig they have. All i'm doing is acting as go between for what ye lads would like to see and what the Midlands can accommodate.
    What you have to find, is the (happy) medium, which suits most people and annoys the least people.
    Exactly. hence the reason for this thread and why i'm asking for as many opinions, ideas and thoughts as people have.

    As i said i don't have any direct control, over the comps. The lads on Sunday will tell you i was a spectator like the rest. So i cannot guarantee that all ideas will be used, but i can guarantee that all ideas will be passed on.
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  • #25
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    German pointer wrote: »
    As I use a muzzel break when hunting I find my accuracy affected when I have to take it off for competitions and I'm probably not the only one in this boat. Could there be 2 stages of each shoot. Stage 1 lads with mods and unbreaked guns shoot and lads with breaked guns shoot stage 2. Everyone gets to shoot as they do in the field without the muzzel breaks upsetting the unbreaked shooters. And this would only add a little time to the overall shoot.
    Givein the inconsistencies in various AGS divisions in getting mods licenced, that help "tame" larger calibers the shooters that have mods have I think an advantage over the lads who can't use mods.
    This I think would help even the playing field so to speak and let lads shoot the hunting competitions the same way they shoot their quarry in the field.


    Would you believe the shooter to my left and the right 2 down to my right had brakes on there rifles!! I would have no problem letting them be used.


  • #26
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    German pointer wrote: »
    As I use a muzzel break when hunting I find my accuracy affected when I have to take it off for competitions .
    I don't see any reason why not considering where we are shooting from, and if they are used in lieu of a suppressor then there is good reason to allow them.
    1jay1 wrote: »
    I'd like to be able to shoot my "factory" single shot "sporting rifle" - RPA Interceptor 6.5x55 - it's my only CF hunting rifle. I missed out on the shoot yesterday as I don't have a mag fed rifle and I'd love to enter a shoot like this.
    Any plans to allow single shot sporting rifles in the future?
    I spoke to you about this a couple of weeks ago on the phone and i explained the reasoning behind this decision.

    However, and as i said then, i'll ask for such factory rifles to be allowed.
    patsat wrote: »
    Would you believe the shooter to my left and the right 2 down to my right had brakes on there rifles!! I would have no problem letting them be used.
    Never seen that, but as said above i only advertise the events and take comments. As i said on the original thread each shoot is subject to change on the day so they must have been allowed.

    If so then it should make having them allowed for the next shoot that much easier.
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  • #27
    German pointer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭German pointer


    I thought I saw in a previous post that breaks could not be used in a competition but glad they can be. People would need to know in advance of the competition as to weather they can be used or not.
    Because TBH not much point in a lad turning up with a break on and having to take if for the competition and screwing up his POI


  • #28
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    Been thinking about this a good bit, and came up with the following idea.

    The F-class stuff seems to be decided on who can read the wind the best. They have sighters to get on target and go from there. (Obviously kit and ammo is important)

    Bench rest has a much bigger emphasis on how accurate your kit is.

    The Stalking type shoots and bullseye. are really all down to how well you shoot in those positions, a good shooter with a bad rifle will out shoot a bad shooter with a good rifle.

    How about having a bigger emphasis on the cold bore shooting. It would mean the skill is knowing where your bullet is going to land at different distances.

    If it was still 20 rounds shot at 100, 200 and 300 it would keep the round count relatively low at each distance meaning a good 1st shot is rewarded.That would help lads with sporter barrels get more competitive and as long as they know their drops and have good wind reading they would have no problem out shootings a lad with a target rifle with less knowledge of his rifle.

    It would kind of replicate long range varminting I suppose and of course it would be great to push it out to 500 but that might not appealing to a lot!


  • #29
    nastros
    Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭nastros


    Did the cold bore shot last day not count for a fair few points? Issue with 500 is that anything past 300 will likely require lads to go zero their rifles on the day making the coldbore pointless. That being said id like to see the competition shot at 400, 500 and 600 but may not attract as many.


  • #30
    hiddenmongoose
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭hiddenmongoose


    patsat wrote: »



    How about having a bigger emphasis on the cold bore shooting. It would mean the skill is knowing where your bullet is going to land at different distances.



    It would kind of replicate long range varminting I suppose and of course it would be great to push it out to 500 but that might not appealing to a lot!

    I didnt get to make the comp as things came up last minute.However this as patsat mentions above is something I would really be interested in,Some coldbore/first round/2nd followup hit shooting out to 4-500, coupled with some positional shooting for the closer shots.It would be very realistic,round count could still be maintained low(20 rounds).
    This kind of comp would make everything count for your first shots at each target, wind/drop,solid shooting position and it would also stretch the legs like a touch of lr varminting.


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  • #31
    patsat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭patsat


    nastros wrote: »
    Did the cold bore shot last day not count for a fair few points? Issue with 500 is that anything past 300 will likely require lads to go zero their rifles on the day making the coldbore pointless. That being said id like to see the competition shot at 400, 500 and 600 but may not attract as many.

    Not the 100 yards shot, it was for its own competition.

    At 200 yards the 1st shot counted, but there was 9 shots after it meaning a lad could have a terrible 1st shot... Correct and then score well.

    If it was spread over 100, 200 and 300 it would mean less shots at each distance which would give good 1st shots a much higher reward.


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