Trying to decide between 2 boilers

JohnnieK · 12-10-2012 1:10pm

They are supposed to clean the system but i have come across ones that don't.

Copper cylinders start turning green in places and this is usually a sign of corrosion. If you are considering changing the cylinder then think about stainless steel. They are great cylinders and the insulation is normally of a higher standard.

Merch · 12-10-2012 1:33pm

JohnnieK wrote: »

They are supposed to clean the system but i have come across ones that don't.

Copper cylinders start turning green in places and this is usually a sign of corrosion. If you are considering changing the cylinder then think about stainless steel. They are great cylinders and the insulation is normally of a higher standard.

Green, on the outside, I presume you mean? or do you mean on the inside and then its noticed when it works its way through a joint.
Would the clean be a requirement of the manufacturer for a warranty ?
Would the stainless steel ones be for pressurised? is that advantage for heating efficiency? (the pressure I mean).
and importantly is there a qualification to look for if getting a pressurised cylinder/system? dont want to be sleeping beside a time bomb.
Cost much more?
Is there any issues with corrosion with steel combined with the copper pipes compared to all copper? if so i assume it can be mitigated against?

I think that covers it

cikearney · 12-10-2012 1:47pm

To be honest i haven't nor do i not anybody who has used anodes, so i cannot comment.

If you have had to replace rads due to leaks it is most likely cause by an undiscoverd leak somewhere in the heating system either under the ground, on the coil its self or somewhere you just may have not noticed.

i also read about this cylinder, it was because the installer installed a copper cylinder with the solar panels and they cannot cope with the heat produced by the panels/tube this is why stainless cylinders are recommended.

In the installation manual of ALL boilers is states that the system must have been thoroughly cleaned and flushed. Wheter the instaler has included this in his price i do not know as most people want things done as cheap as possible nowdays, this should be requested by you the customer. This is also why you have the bare minimum controls on your system.

When replacing your boiler i would recommend that you replace you cylinder especially if it not insulated correctly. If you are thinking of solar in the future make sure you accomadate for it now instead of having to repace it again when you install the solar.

Also you do not have to go for the expensive unvented stainless steel cylinder anymore, rather a stainless steel, pre insulated, vented, dual coil cylinder. it would also be wise to size this correctly for the solar you require.

this all sound like expensive unnecessary time but only takes 1 or 2 phone calls and can be easily sorted.

cikearney · 12-10-2012 1:49pm

10 years sorry, and a poxy day out. first flight out, last flight home hours to kill in birmingham

cikearney · 12-10-2012 1:55pm

If the actual bare copper cylinder, as you have in your own home, appeara to be turning green, this is an indication of corrosion within the cylinder

Merch · 12-10-2012 2:05pm

cikearney wrote: »

To be honest i haven't nor do i not anybody who has used anodes, so i cannot comment.

If you have had to replace rads due to leaks it is most likely cause by an undiscoverd leak somewhere in the heating system either under the ground, on the coil its self or somewhere you just may have not noticed.

i also read about this cylinder, it was because the installer installed a copper cylinder with the solar panels and they cannot cope with the heat produced by the panels/tube this is why stainless cylinders are recommended.

In the installation manual of ALL boilers is states that the system must have been thoroughly cleaned and flushed. Wheter the instaler has included this in his price i do not know as most people want things done as cheap as possible nowdays, this should be requested by you the customer. This is also why you have the bare minimum controls on your system.

When replacing your boiler i would recommend that you replace you cylinder especially if it not insulated correctly. If you are thinking of solar in the future make sure you accomadate for it now instead of having to repace it again when you install the solar.

Also you do not have to go for the expensive unvented stainless steel cylinder anymore, rather a stainless steel, pre insulated, vented, dual coil cylinder. it would also be wise to size this correctly for the solar you require.

this all sound like expensive unnecessary time but only takes 1 or 2 phone calls and can be easily sorted.

Ok, thanks for the info, I follow these threads out of interest, a lot of what I am aware i need is by observing what my current system doesnt have or provide, ie control, zones, upgrade ability. The system is as it was when I arrived,mostly looking to be informed for when i need to change, so i have the right questions to ask and be as informed as possible about what Im getting. Def agree, get the option of solar capable in case that comes later rather than paying twice for a tank, but depending on the time frame, I will need the best sized system for use, so if its <5 years away might not be as essential. If its sooner, then yes i'd go for it, but Id have to weight that against hot water requirements needed now and cost.

I was wondering about pressurised hot water tank over vented, it seems you are saying they are more expensive?, I presume to buy and install, was wondering if there are any advantages of pressurised? I was thinking efficiency, vented seem to be par here.

Merch · 12-10-2012 2:08pm

cikearney wrote: »

If the actual bare copper cylinder, as you have in your own home, appeara to be turning green, this is an indication of corrosion within the cylinder

No, I havent noticed any patches or appearances of tank turning green, I thought it would occur around the joints first, I'll have a thorough look.
Some slight patch of green (couple of mm sq on some pipes near soldered joints, but they were always there since the start, no sign of getting bigger, think it was surface corrosion that occured after joint was made)

cikearney · 12-10-2012 2:30pm

When you need to change is the question. From a HE point of view, you need to change now. But it's freezing out at the minute and i could take up to 3-4 day depening on what you want.

Idealy what you need is to be able to control you upstairs heat, downstairs heat and hot water individually with a stat up and down and on the cylinder. and then you have to think about where you want the stats to be positioned i.e. put it in the hall and you will never reach the required temp and the rest of the house will be a sweat box, put it in the kitchen and the rest of the house will be colder, make sure the installer goes through all of this with you.

Unvented are definatley more efficient in terms of heat loss. But do you really need it as it tends to be cool most evenings in Ireland the heating will be on and if your heat is on you may aswell have your water on. Also if you are installing solar you should have more than enough free hot water to be worrying about heat loss, my opinion.
Also beware or water charges as most installers will recommend to pump the unvented cylinder, 3 bed semi, pumping everything, not ideal, again my opinion.

Also green spots around solder fittings tend to be flux not cleaned away properly. Deterioation on cylinders is like a running green stain as if water had been running down it

Merch · 12-10-2012 7:30pm

cikearney wrote: »

When you need to change is the question. From a HE point of view, you need to change now. But it's freezing out at the minute and i could take up to 3-4 day depening on what you want.

Idealy what you need is to be able to control you upstairs heat, downstairs heat and hot water individually with a stat up and down and on the cylinder. and then you have to think about where you want the stats to be positioned i.e. put it in the hall and you will never reach the required temp and the rest of the house will be a sweat box, put it in the kitchen and the rest of the house will be colder, make sure the installer goes through all of this with you.

Unvented are definatley more efficient in terms of heat loss. But do you really need it as it tends to be cool most evenings in Ireland the heating will be on and if your heat is on you may aswell have your water on. Also if you are installing solar you should have more than enough free hot water to be worrying about heat loss, my opinion.
Also beware or water charges as most installers will recommend to pump the unvented cylinder, 3 bed semi, pumping everything, not ideal, again my opinion.

Also green spots around solder fittings tend to be flux not cleaned away properly. Deterioation on cylinders is like a running green stain as if water had been running down it

HE? the e is beside the w so I am assuming you mean HW? if its HE, I dont know what that is, I'm not urgent to change, certainly not at the start of winter (fingers crossed).

I am not sure what you mean beware of water charges?? or pump the unvented cylinder? I really am not sure what that is, are you saying I'd be charged extra specifically for pressurising the unvented system?

[Deleted User] · 14-10-2012 6:47pm

Merch wrote: »

.

I have read recently on another thread on boards about someone getting repairs on tanks due to corrosion and it made me consider how to prolong the life of an existing or even new tank. There was talk of a sacrificial anode being placed in the tank?

Sacrificial anodes can be found in some cylinders, electric water heaters and boilers, they are mostly ignored

people rather wait till something bursts unfortunately.

All you have to do is read the MI which will explain the service needs or yearly checks(which nobody does) and/or if a anode is fitted.

Merch · 14-10-2012 7:11pm

Id hazard a guess most people dont know of them though (sacrificial anodes)

[Deleted User] · 14-10-2012 7:24pm

Merch wrote: »

Id hazard a guess most people dont know of them though (sacrificial anodes)

In all fairness it's not rocket science, it's in the manufactures instructions with pictures:eek: with what a cylinder costs someone should have a peek at the manual and take responsibility.

I'v gone out to lots of cylinders that have gone pop to explain that there's no warranty cover because nobody read the manual.

Merch · 14-10-2012 9:20pm

gary71 wrote: »

In all fairness it's not rocket science, it's in the manufactures instructions with pictures:eek: with what a cylinder costs someone should have a peek at the manual and take responsibility.

I'v gone out to lots of cylinders that have gone pop to explain that there's no warranty cover because nobody read the manual.

Do you mean the manufacturers instructions for the boiler?
Certainly not something I was ever given, a manual for my own boiler? it was already installed when i arrived, but it was new so, what do you do? this was pre internet, for me anyway.
I think its not on peoples priority list, as long as it works I'm sure that'd be most peoples view on it, not my own but most people just want to switch them on and off.
In fairness I've come across sacrificial anodes in other applications, (probably should have guessed they'd be used in CH) I wasn't aware it was something used in Hot water systems.
People rely on someone servicing their heating to mention it, cant fault them for not asking about something they are unaware of what it even is.

Re boiler manual, on one occasion (when the mother had hers done) I asked for the manuals, was told, "you wont need that, what would you want that for"
My view then was for any relevant general information/parts numbers, didnt have anything specific in mind, mostly precautionary.
I'll definitely be bringing it up at the time of boiler/tank replacement.

[Deleted User] · 14-10-2012 10:06pm

Merch wrote: »

Do you mean the manufacturers instructions for the boiler?
Certainly not something I was ever given, a manual for my own boiler? it was already installed when i arrived, but it was new so, what do you do? this was pre internet, for me anyway.
I think its not on peoples priority list, as long as it works I'm sure that'd be most peoples view on it, not my own but most people just want to switch them on and off.
In fairness I've come across sacrificial anodes in other applications, (probably should have guessed they'd be used in CH) I wasn't aware it was something used in Hot water systems.
People rely on someone servicing their heating to mention it, cant fault them for not asking about something they are unaware of what it even is.

Re boiler manual, on one occasion (when the mother had hers done) I asked for the manuals, was told, "you wont need that, what would you want that for"
My view then was for any relevant general information/parts numbers, didnt have anything specific in mind, mostly precautionary.
I'll definitely be bringing it up at the time of boiler/tank replacement.

I have different training, it has always been a requirement working in London to fully explain heating controls on new installs or any servicing done then sign to say i'v done it, I find working in Ireland that 99% of customers don't wish to know how their heating system works and are not interested in the basics like how to fill the boiler or turn the heat up/down

people just don't care.

I wouldn't get too concerned about a anode, their normally only found in boilers with a internal hot water storage cylinder and some cylinders, if you change your cylinder read the manual for servicing requirements or ring the manufactures who will give you the heads up.

cikearney · 15-10-2012 6:01pm

Merch wrote: »

HE? the e is beside the w so I am assuming you mean HW? if its HE, I dont know what that is, I'm not urgent to change, certainly not at the start of winter (fingers crossed).

I am not sure what you mean beware of water charges?? or pump the unvented cylinder? I really am not sure what that is, are you saying I'd be charged extra specifically for pressurising the unvented system?

HE simply means high efficiency.

When water charges are implemented the difference between gravity fed systems and pumped systems are follows

If you wash your hands from your whb(wash hand basin) from your gravity system and you run your tap for 60secs, at lets say a flow rate of 3l/m(litres per minute), you will use 3l of water,

And if you wash your hands from your whb on a pumped system for 60secs with a flow rate of 4.5l/m, you will use 4.5l.

How many times will you wash your hands etc a day/ month year?

This can be sorted simply just making sure that you are aware of this.

Merch · 15-10-2012 7:48pm

cikearney wrote: »

HE simply means high efficiency.

When water charges are implemented the difference between gravity fed systems and pumped systems are follows

If you wash your hands from your whb(wash hand basin) from your gravity system and you run your tap for 60secs, at lets say a flow rate of 3l/m(litres per minute), you will use 3l of water,

And if you wash your hands from your whb on a pumped system for 60secs with a flow rate of 4.5l/m, you will use 4.5l.

How many times will you wash your hands etc a day/ month year?

This can be sorted simply just making sure that you are aware of this.

Ok, I see.
It all depends on how charges are implemented, if its a flat rate, (something I think would be pointless and create no incentive to save water).
Are spring loaded taps available domestically, as found in most commercial whb? ie shops etc

I'd be more concerned about the amount of water being flushed, thats what I read was the biggest consumer of water and a reason I would like to tap whats coming off my roof.

cikearney · 16-10-2012 12:19pm

Yes they can be used in your home and they can be set to a certain amount of water, i find a lot of people with young kids opt for these in their downstairs wc as kids tend to leave them on or trinkling.

Rain water harvesting will be/ is the next big thing. Tank stored under ground or somewhere possible to collect the water. Tank also supplied with an emergency mains supply to keep it full and at this moment in time is being used to fill the toilets with peoples homes, great conservation of water.

Trying to decide between 2 boilers

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