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Photo ID Card?

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12467

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    #92
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think people also have a right to easily able to establish their identity too. That's not something you can do in Ireland without going through all sorts of hoops with utility bills.

    I know quite a few people who've been put into this situation:

    To open a bank account you need at least one (sometimes two) utility bills and official documents in your name and address.

    To open a utility bill you need a bank account.

    So, they get stuck in a vicious circle for weeks while they try to gather all those documents. If you've just moved here from another country, or you've just moved out of your family home, just broken up / separated and had no bills in your name, it's really, really difficult to get yourself setup properly.

    Irish people are also under no obligation to have a driving license or a passport, if you don't have one of these it's very difficult to identify yourself officially and there are some people (especially older city centre types) who don't have either of those.

    I think we should have an ID card available for convenience and being able to prove identity when we need to.

    That's a very different thing to what's done on the continent in many countries : requiring you to carry it at all times and making it an offence to be outside while 'unidentified'. That to me is a step towards a police state.
    However, having an optional national ID card that you can use to where you need to is a public service.


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    #93
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    That's a very different thing to what's done on the continent in many countries : requiring you to carry it at all times and making it an offence to be outside while 'unidentified'. That to me is a step towards a police state.

    I agree with everything you said in your post, but I just wanted to point out that this is very rare.

    In most EU countries, while you are required to get a national ID card when you turn a particular age, you aren't actually required to carry it. In other words if you forget it at home, you aren't breaking the law.

    Now most people in these countries carry ID out of habit and ease of use and if police stops you, then it is easier to just show that. However if you don't have it and you can't offer satisfactory id or they think it is forged, they can take you to a police station and keep you until they prove who you are. But you haven't actually broken any law by not carrying it.

    However that is exactly the same in Ireland today. If a Garda stops you and isn't satisfied that the name and address you give is correct, then they can detain you in a Garda station until they confirm your details.

    I think only one or two countries like Turkey make it mandatory to actually carry your ID.


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    #94
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    murphaph wrote: »
    Disagree on both points. Of course the mossad can forge a high quality ID card with electronic security features but most people can't so it would certainly help in the fight against identity theft. I imagine if anyone had ever stolen your identity (say given your name and address to a ticket inspector after being caught ticket less on the train etc.) you might have a different point of view on a person's right to be presumed who they say they are.

    Mossad might be able to forge the card, but how would they insert the ID into the national database that the card could be checked against so easily?


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    #95
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    trellheim wrote: »
    A fair few people are missing the main point; a person is entitled to presumption that they are who they say they are. Any form of paper or electronic identification can be easily forged as required

    While I'm sure it would be possible for the CIA, MI6, etc. to forge, it would be far more difficult to forge a national id card with an electronic chip. Probably beyond the ability of the majority of ordinary criminals.

    Firstly your picture on the card is encrypted on the card. So when you go into a government office, they check if the picture on the card matches the one digitally stored in the card.

    This defeats one of the most common forms of forgery, take a real card and paste your own picture over the old picture. The picture on the chip is digitally encrypted, you would need ask to the government computers to change this. Certainly not something your average forger could do.

    Then the government could also store the original picture in a database, so it could double check it against the card and you.

    A forger would thus have to also hack the government servers to change your picture. Way, way beyond most forgers abilities.

    Some countries also store your fingerprint on the card encrypted and again on a government database. This gets around the issue of people changing looks over time or say two brothers who look very similar using each others cards.

    Certainly no one sort of a government agency would be capable of forging this.


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    #96
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Mossad might be able to forge the card, but how would they insert the ID into the national database that the card could be checked against so easily?

    They would need to hack the national database or more realistically bride or black mail someone who has access to it to do it.

    Not impossible, but obviously vastly more difficult. Way more difficult then it would be to forge an Irish passport today.

    There is no such thing as perfect security, but you can certainly make it way harder. So hard that the majority of forgers could never do it.


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    #97
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There's already been implications of dodgy staff in the Passport Office - http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0724/464296-passport-office-investigation - so getting a 'genuine' faked card is going to be equally as easy or hard as it was with a paper passport.


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    #98
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    There's already been implications of dodgy staff in the Passport Office - http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0724/464296-passport-office-investigation - so getting a 'genuine' faked card is going to be equally as easy or hard as it was with a paper passport.

    True for the passport card, it really isn't any different then a cut down passport.

    But if we were to do a national id card, along with support database, etc. It would be possible to build in safeguards to the database/system to log and audit access and changes, thus making it harder for unscrupulous staff to abuse.

    Still of course it would still be possible to abuse, just harder.


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    #99
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Anyone doing an inside job in a passport office should be facing a very serious prison sentence, summary dismissal and loss of pension.

    You have to be able to trust these services.


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    #100
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think it would require a lot more than a loan crook to get a valid passport or valid ID card these days. There are too many elements in the security, like entries on a database and encryption onto the embedded chip. Not impossible but getting harder and harder to do.


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    #101
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭trellheim


    They would need to hack the national database or more realistically bride or black mail someone who has access to it to do it.

    Not impossible, but obviously vastly more difficult. Way more difficult then it would be to forge an Irish passport today.

    There is no such thing as perfect security, but you can certainly make it way harder. So hard that the majority of forgers could never do it.

    What national database are you lot talking about. This is Ireland not CSI Miami.


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    #102
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    trellheim wrote: »
    What national database are you lot talking about.

    The one that doesn't exist yet.


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    #103
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Yes, it is enforced. A colleague of mine from England was pulled over in France for failing to display one.


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    #104
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    trellheim wrote: »
    What national database are you lot talking about. This is Ireland not CSI Miami.

    There has to be a database of passports issued at the very least - they were able to lift my photo off it.


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    #105
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    There has to be a database of passports issued at the very least - they were able to lift my photo off it.

    The problem is that there's no one database, because as the laws stand the data that DSP have can't be shared with other departments e.g. Foreign Affairs (passports) or Environment (driving licenses) and vice versa.
    bk wrote: »
    They would need to hack the national database or more realistically bride or black mail someone who has access to it to do it.

    There are still ways around this, such as the social welfare fraud case that is in court this week. A man used 6 different identities generated using papers bought in England to claim welfare here over an 11 year period. He was only caught as somebody noticed that 4 claimants had the same picture.


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    #106
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    I learned a while ago at the complete frustration of a lot of the diplomats who get posted to Dublin at the lack of any national ID card system. It's particularly problematic when it comes to opening a bank account given the need for utility bills and the like.

    Yes, these are the people who are sent here by foreign governments under international treaties with all the relevant paperwork. They are about as legal and legitimate an immigrant as you can get, yet they cannot open a bank account. Some of them end up living on credit cards for months.


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    #107
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Would they not use their existing bank accounts with a IBAN where the I stands for International?


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    #108
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Would they not use their existing bank accounts with a IBAN where the I stands for International?
    I think you're confusing SEPA and IBAN?

    A bank account in the SEPA would indeed allow bills to be paid from it, but I suppose a diplomat coming from a non-SEPA country is less likely to have a SEPA account. A US account will have an IBAN, but it will be impossible to set up a direct debit on it from Ireland as it is not SEPA and uses a totally different payment system.


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    #109
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,829 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Bray Head wrote: »
    I learned a while ago at the complete frustration of a lot of the diplomats who get posted to Dublin at the lack of any national ID card system. It's particularly problematic when it comes to opening a bank account given the need for utility bills and the like.
    <snip>
    how would an id card system for irish people make any difference in the slightest to someone of a different nationality arriving into Ireland?

    if you mean a system of registering your address, then thats different and completely independent from id cards as foreign people in countries with that system can register as a resident in a certain place but still arent entited to a national id card.


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    #110
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    how would an id card system for irish people make any difference in the slightest to someone of a different nationality arriving into Ireland?

    A national ID typically wouldn't just be for Irish people. It would be for anyone staying here for an extended period of time (e.g. foreign students, studying for a year, etc.).

    That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.

    So lets say a foreign diplomat arrives in Ireland and expects to be living here for the next year or so. First thing they do is go to the national id service and get issued with their national id card. They can then use this card for opening bank accounts, opening gas, electricity, broadband accounts, etc.


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    #111
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,829 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    bk wrote: »
    That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.
    is it though? I actually thought it was the opposite.
    Germany has an id card only for citizens, as does France, Austria , Belgium , and I'd go through them one by one if I had the time


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    #112
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,418 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    From my own experience (NL, D) that's right, only citizens have normal ID cards, and foreigners have some kind of special non-resident's ID card. In Germany it was called an Aufenthaltserlaubnis and in Netherlands a Verblijfskaart although things may have changed since I was there.


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    #113
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bk wrote: »
    That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.
    I don't think it is but it really should be. I know that Spain does issue ID cards to non-citizens.


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    #114
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Alun wrote: »
    From my own experience (NL, D) that's right, only citizens have normal ID cards, and foreigners have some kind of special non-resident's ID card. In Germany it was called an Aufenthaltserlaubnis and in Netherlands a Verblijfskaart although things may have changed since I was there.
    EU foreigners don't get any card in Germany any more.


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    #115
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,829 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Anyhow, its announced and will be available to existing passport holders only from July, and will have a big dirty "PASSPORT" across it to emphisise that its a travel document and not a national "id card" (whatever that indeed my be defined as)

    Passport-Card-front-460x280px.jpg

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0126/675641-passport-card/


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    #116
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0126/675641-passport-card/

    An interesting development for €35 and the ability to apply via an app.


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    #117
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,829 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    on the DFA website theres more info, including stuff not pointed out by RTE.
    The card will have a maximum validity of 5 years (or the remaining validity of an individual’s passport book) and will cost €35.

    Citizens can only apply online or through the free app on phone/tablet.
    https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2015/january/minister-flanagan-announces-new-passport-card/

    my passport is up in a couple of years so I'll have to decide if its worth the cost to just get it for the couple of years remaining.
    On the balance of it I might just do it seeing as its just a weight off the shoulders to have a real valid ID on you rather than relying on blue eyes and irish charm to convince a policeman doing their random id checks that you are who you say you are.


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    #118
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There are a lot of advantages to having it. It will be harder to lose that a standard passport; it will be easier to carry and could be carried in a wallet with all your credit cards. It will be a real loss if someone steals your wallet though.


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    #119
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    There are a lot of advantages to having it. It will be harder to lose that a standard passport; it will be easier to carry and could be carried in a wallet with all your credit cards. It will be a real loss if someone steals your wallet though.

    Now will ryanair accept as valid for flights?


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    #120
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    irishgeo wrote: »
    Now will ryanair accept as valid for flights?

    Of course.


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    #121
    gamblor101
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭gamblor101


    €70 every ten years versus €80 odd for a full passport. Not much of an incentive to be honest.


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