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Can You Change The Constitution

  • 08-05-2013 10:30pm
    #1
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭


    If the people of Ireland all agreed (by majority) to change an article of the constitution. Could it be done?

    Could we for example... add a clause that requires the government to give every Irish citizen a brand new shiny 1 euro coin on the 1st of August. < This is not the change I want to make haha, just an example.

    If we all got together and made them change the constitution...

    what YOU think and actual legal opinions please :D
    Tagged:


Comments

  • #2
    HurtLocker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Like a referendum?


  • #3
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    No, a referendum is initiated by the government.

    I mean if We The People initiate what we want. Not voting on weather we agree or disagree on what the government wants to change.


  • #4
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    I know in certain states and cities in the us local law can be changed if enough signatures are collected. This is both agood and very bad thing. Like religious nut jobs can scare people into voting in things like prop 8 banning gay marriage in california. But also has positives like people legalising medical marijuana in states like Colorado even through its illegal federally.


  • #5
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    househero wrote: »
    If the people of Ireland all agreed (by majority) to change an article of the constitution. Could it be done?

    Could we for example... add a clause that requires the government to give every Irish citizen a brand new shiny 1 euro coin on the 1st of August.

    If we all got together and made them change the constitution...

    what YOU think and actual legal opinions please :D

    Read the constitution and see if it allows it. If it does then yes if it does not then no. Hint its never happened. But in any case its an interesting document to read.


  • #6
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭micosoft


    househero wrote: »
    No, a referendum is initiated by the government.

    I mean if We The People initiate what we want. Not voting on weather we agree or disagree on what the government wants to change.

    If "we the people" want a referendum on a specific item we elect politicians that that will form a Government that will raise a referendum on that topic. "'We the people" elect the Government so I don't get what you mean by "what we want" although you sound like someone that would like to vote on the "weather" :pac:

    Unless you mean by "we the people" as being your personal want. I can assure you that I don't want what you want without even knowing what it is you want so will sleep soundly tonight knowing you won't get it.


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  • #7
    Jimminy Mc Fukhead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 305 ✭✭Jimminy Mc Fukhead


    You can change anything you want in this world househero. With a little bit of can do attitude and elbow grease. And a pot of money. And a firm legal basis.

    Keep the faith.


  • #8
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    Thanks Jim

    I want to change one thing, that (almost) everybody would like to see changed. I got the legwork. Need some help on the legal wording of the simple change.


    @Micosoft if you could change 1 thing, that the government had to do. What would it be?


    Its an interesting idea to drive policy change FROM the people, instead of the government asking us YES or NO on lots of things we couldn't care less about.


  • #9
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,454 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    The only method to change the Constitution is by referendum, and they can only be called by the government.

    If it's so universally wanted, you'll have no problem getting the government to adopt such an amendment. They tend to be, virtually by definition, rather populist

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  • #10
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    28064212 wrote: »
    The only method to change the Constitution is by referendum, and they can only be called by the government.

    If it's so universally wanted, you'll have no problem getting the government to adopt such an amendment. They tend to be, virtually by definition, rather populist

    I think it would be universally accepted. I need help on the legal wording though.

    So to change the constitution...
    We (as a majority) ask the government, to ask us, if we want to change the constitution (as a majority)?


  • #11
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,454 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    househero wrote: »
    I think it would be universally accepted.
    I find that unlikely
    househero wrote: »
    So to change the constitution...
    We (as a majority) ask the government, to ask us, if we want to change the constitution (as a majority)?
    Yes. We live in a representative democracy

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  • #12
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    28064212 wrote: »
    I find that unlikely


    Yes. We live in a representative democracy

    What would you like to change if you could possibly change one thing, or make the government do by popular vote.


    Which article of the constitution refers to the required stipulations for change to the constitution?


  • #13
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    In order to amend the Constitution, a bill to that effect must first be initiated in Dail Eireann, it must contain no other provision and it must be then passed by the Dail and Seanad following which a referendum must be held. If the referendum is passed (by simple majority of valid votes cast), the President signs the bill into law and the Constitution is thus amended.

    There is no provision by which a petition or similar vehicle can be used to force the Govt to hold a referendum to amend the constitution.

    Bunreacht na hEireann....

    Article 46

    1. Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.
    2. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.
    3. Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".
    4. A Bill containing a proposal or proposals for the amendment of this Constitution shall not contain any other proposal.
    5. A Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution shall be signed by the President forthwith upon his being satisfied that the provisions of this Article have been complied with in respect thereof and that such proposal has been duly approved by the people in accordance with the provisions of section 1 of Article 47 of this Constitution and shall be duly promulgated by the President as a law.


  • #14
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    coylemj wrote: »
    In order to amend the Constitution, a bill to that effect must first be initiated in Dail Eireann, it must contain no other provision and it must be then passed by the Dail and Seanad following which a referendum must be held. If the referendum is passed (by simple majority of valid votes cast), the President signs the bill into law and the Constitution is thus amended.

    There is no provision by which a petition or similar vehicle can be used to force the Govt to hold a referendum to amend the constitution.

    Bunreacht na hEireann....

    Article 46

    1. Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.
    2. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.
    3. Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".
    4. A Bill containing a proposal or proposals for the amendment of this Constitution shall not contain any other proposal.
    5. A Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution shall be signed by the President forthwith upon his being satisfied that the provisions of this Article have been complied with in respect thereof and that such proposal has been duly approved by the people in accordance with the provisions of section 1 of Article 47 of this Constitution and shall be duly promulgated by the President as a law.

    Thanks found it http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

    So we DO have to ask the government to ask us if we want to change the constitution.

    Is there any formal channel to bring a universally wanted change (lets say it is a fictional universally wanted change) to the governments attention, so then they bring a referendum on the matter?


  • #15
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    Sorry - this is discussion is devoid of comprehension of our system of politics, democratic process and governance.

    Can we change it. Yes, talk to your local TD, they are your 'we'.


  • #16
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,308 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    househero wrote: »
    Is there any formal channel to bring a universally wanted change (lets say it is a fictional universally wanted change) to the governments attention, so then they bring a referendum on the matter?

    Yes there is, it was used effectively in 1983 to pressurize weak (Garret Fitzgerald) and opportunistic (Charlie Haughey) politicians to introduce a referendum to amend the constitution to give a fertilised egg the same status as an adult woman.

    Beware what you wish for, you may get it and unleash unforeseen consequences. That's why we have the mess over abortion that we have today.


  • #17
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    Tom Young wrote: »
    Sorry - this is discussion is devoid of comprehension of our system of politics, democratic process and governance.

    Can we change it. Yes, talk to your local TD, they are your 'we'.

    What's wrong, are you a freemason?

    If we the people want to make a change as a majority, we should, according to the constitution be able to.

    "We, the people of Éire,
    Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

    Doesn't say we let the government do it.


  • #18
    househero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭househero


    coylemj wrote: »
    Yes there is, it was used effectively in 1983 to pressurize weak (Garret Fitzgerald) and opportunistic (Charlie Haughey) politicians to introduce a referendum to amend the constitution to give a fertilised egg the same status as an adult woman.

    Beware what you wish for, you may get it and unleash unforeseen consequences. That's why we have the mess over abortion that we have today.

    Not overly keen on outside pressures using power to change a peoples constitution. We still have a hangover from who and what used to rule us. Legally and otherwise.

    I'm not afraid of allowing the majority of people to decide the best decision for a country. Maybe if everybody voted it would be a better system, but im not here to change the system. Just to protect the people.


  • #19
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    You can consider yourself warned. This thread is closed.


This discussion has been closed.
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