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Why does everyone have a 'disease' nowadays?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    Paradoxically, we live in an age where your individual endeavour is more valuable than your contribution in group situations. Creativity, individuality, an ability to think outside the box is how people are making money these days. We're continuing to educate children as if they're all going to get jobs in factories or offices. Such an old fashioned idea, and the most succesful companies are jettisoning these anachronistic practises with the rise of working from home etc.

    To be honest, the idea of group education is an anachronism as well. The only things that school can really do for you is to teach you how to read and write, the rest comes from the social experience. If it were up to me, 50% of the school day would be devoted to leisure/cultural time.

    But thats probably another issue, for another thread...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Paradoxically, we live in an age where your individual endeavour is more valuable than your contribution in group situations. Creativity, individuality, an ability to think outside the box is how people are making money these days. We're continuing to educate children as if they're all going to get jobs in factories or offices. Such an old fashioned idea, and the most succesful companies are jettisoning these anachronistic practises with the rise of working from home etc.

    To be honest, the idea of group education is an anachronism as well. The only things that school can really do for you is to teach you how to read and write, the rest comes from the social experience. If it were up to me, 50% of the school day would be devoted to leisure/cultural time.

    But thats probably another issue, for another thread...

    The research already is there that shows schools are not preparing kids for what businesses want or need.

    School is still based on a 19th century industrial model....and life has changed.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The research already is there that shows schools are not preparing kids for what businesses want or need.

    School is still based on a 19th century industrial model....and life has changed.....

    If and when I have a child, I'll either teach them from home or try to find a 'hippy' school for them to go to. The modern education system is profoundly unable to prepare children for the 21st century. The only benefit I can see from school nowadays is the social interaction.

    I'm going to try and bring us back to the point though! Somebody mentioned that our expectations of kids nowadays are insane, and I absolutely agree. If the child demonstrates something a little 'autisticky', as in, they like to spend time by themselves, they're interested in collecting stuff, or they don't hold great eye contact... all of a sudden they are 'mentally ill'. To be honest the same goes for ADHD. I remember a particularly great episode of the Sopranos when Tony tells the psychologist to **** off when he says his son has it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    If and when I have a child, I'll either teach them from home or try to find a 'hippy' school for them to go to. The modern education system is profoundly unable to prepare children for the 21st century. The only benefit I can see from school nowadays is the social interaction.

    I'm going to try and bring us back to the point though! Somebody mentioned that our expectations of kids nowadays are insane, and I absolutely agree. If the child demonstrates something a little 'autisticky', as in, they like to spend time by themselves, they're interested in collecting stuff, or they don't hold great eye contact... all of a sudden they are 'mentally ill'. To be honest the same goes for ADHD. I remember a particularly great episode of the Sopranos when Tony tells the psychologist to **** off when he says his son has it!

    The hippy schools are just as bad. The 21st century has not stopped valuing achievement and discipline, or stopped having tough cookie managers one has to deal with.

    Hippie schools do not help kids adjust to a world in which no one gives a **** about your feelings. They come out an get a cold hard incompetent shock.

    ADHD is going to continue to get over diagnosed as boys are not digital and school remains analogue. School has to play catch up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭TwoGallants


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The hippy schools are just as bad. The 21st century has not stopped valuing achievement and discipline, or stopped having tough cookie managers one has to deal with.

    Hippie schools do not help kids adjust to a world in which no one gives a **** about your feelings. They come out an get a cold hard incompetent shock.

    ADHD is going to continue to get over diagnosed as boys are not digital and school remains analogue. School has to play catch up.

    I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

    Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

    Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.

    They encourage a specific kind of creativity and individuality within the limited parametres of their ability to recognise an acknowledge what creativity and individuality is. If you fit within their limited scope mores that is...

    Creativity and individuality are not separate from technology whatsover....they are very much in cahoots.

    Creativity and individualty- yes we need them.... but we do also need other elements to support them or they wont be fostered...and some of those elements are perseverence, riding it out when it gets tough and yes working for assholes who are tough cookies. You think at certain levels masters of their arts are not exacting and competitive? Think again.

    And don't be fooled into thinking they dont diagnose and medicate kids, a lot of parents who diagnose and medicate kids are attracted to these schools.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    ADHD = Bauld Bastard Syndrome



    Of course their parents are never going to think their little angel might be bold, must be something wrong with him. He needs meds. When all he needs is a good, educating parent!

    Yeah its like dyslexia. Everyone knows dyslexia is code for 'thick'. All they need is a nun to beat them into reading properly.

    Same with left handedness. Funny enough the solution to that was also nuns beating the left hand them any time they tried to use it.

    ADD and ADHD are not made up (they aren't the same either). There are problems in the way they are diagnosed and can often share symptoms with other neurological
    Disorders and behavioural disorders. Sometimes the child might well grow out of it anyway and sometimes the child simply needs regular exercise to burn off their extra energy. Either way it's better to find problems and fix them than pretend they don't exist

    OP, pretending psychology doesn't exist is a bit mad. Do you not believe psychological processes exist or just psychological processes you haven't personally experienced?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    ADD and ADHD are not made up (they aren't the same either). There are problems in the way they are diagnosed and can often share symptoms with other neurological Disorders and behavioural disorders. Sometimes the child might well grow out of it anyway and sometimes the child simply needs regular exercise to burn off their extra energy. Either way it's better to find problems and fix them than pretend they don't exist


    Did you not read any of my posts at all? I said all they need is a good parent and a change of lifestyle, not to be medicated and told that there's something wrong with them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Did you not read any of my posts at all? I said all they need is a good parent and a change of lifestyle, not to be medicated and told that there's something wrong with them.

    Same could be said of cancer prevention and treatment.
    First you need to diagnose the problem then solve it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    Same could be said of cancer prevention and treatment. First you need to diagnose the problem then solve it.


    So you're comparing being hyper and having a short attention span to cancer? The same couldn't be said. Ones horrible disease ones a behavioural problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    So you're comparing being hyper and having a short attention span to cancer? The same couldn't be said. Ones horrible disease ones a behavioural problem.

    Nope. I said your answer about behavioural and lifestyle changes, apply to both. Neither are guaranteed to fix the problem without medication and the best course for both is to diagnose the problem and look for a solution.

    Apart from that ADHD in particular, can be diagnosed through abnormalities in the brain which result in behavioural problems like trouble concentrating and over activity. So it's not a purely behavioural problem as you're making it out to be.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    Now this could be miles off the mark, and sorry if I offend anyone. But I wonder if theres any link between ADHD/ADD and their upbringing? Any of these kids that I know (just the ones that I know) come from a single mother or lower class familys? Is there any stats available I wonder. Do many kids from well off families with 2 parents get this 'illness' or whatever it is? Again, not trying to offend anyone, just asking the question. Then again most people I know or associate with are from 'lower class' so im just curious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Now this could be miles off the mark, and sorry if I offend anyone. But I wonder if theres any link between ADHD/ADD and their upbringing? Any of these kids that I know (just the ones that I know) come from a single mother or lower class familys? Is there any stats available I wonder. Do many kids from well off families with 2 parents get this 'illness' or whatever it is? Again, not trying to offend anyone, just asking the question. Then again most people I know or associate with are from 'lower class' so im just curious.

    Yes definitely. The symptoms often overlap hence misdiagnosis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Why do people have so many "opinions" on other people nowadays?
    Why do people feel the need to stick their nose in so much nowadays?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    PucaMama wrote:
    Why do people have so many "opinions" on other people nowadays? Why do people feel the need to stick their nose in so much nowadays?


    What kind of a statement is that to make? People have opinions on everything since forever, otherwise we would still be living as neanderthals. We just have ways of sharing our opinions now.
    I certainly didn't say no one has depression, just that doctors are VERY quick to diagnose it with doing any tests. I have first hand experience of this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    What kind of a statement is that to make? People have opinions on everything since forever, otherwise we would still be living as neanderthals. We just have ways of sharing our opinions now.
    I certainly didn't say no one has depression, just that doctors are VERY quick to diagnose it with doing any tests. I have first hand experience of this.

    A doctor is a professional who knows exactly what they are doing and knows a lot more than some internet psychology "skeptic"


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    PucaMama wrote:
    A doctor is a professional who knows exactly what they are doing and knows a lot more than some internet psychology "skeptic"


    Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.

    Your experience is relevant to you and no others


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    PucaMama wrote:
    Your experience is relevant to you and no others


    Yes that's true. I'm not the only one with this experience though, and I know lots of young people make up the symptoms to get access to free drugs. Up john 90s are fast becoming Irelands most popular drug and these are got on prescriptions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    iguana wrote: »
    They could start by doing a basic medical check up on anyone who reports depression like symptoms before handing out mood altering medication.

    Firstly apologies for truncating your posts. I'm replying to to all of just don't want people having people to scroll like mad.:)

    That's exactly what they SHOULD do. Doctors, like car mechanics, come in all different sorts. I could write horror stories on some of my experiences! Unfortunately in the case of doctors it's peoples' bodies that are on the line. Any symptom or illness, can themselves be a symptom of another illness. A patient could have been depressed because they were anaemic and anaemic because of another underlying condition e.g cancer, lupus, IBD. etc. Treat the underlying cause and the symptoms might go away. It's important to point out though that while the underlying condition is being treated - or ye to be diagnosed - the other symptoms may still persist. In this scenario it's probably still best for the symptoms to be treated (even if it's in essence only a cosmetic fix). The reason being that depression, anaemia, whatever, left untreated usually leads to further complications again. My GP has explained to me that in medicine his first port of call is to treat symptoms that present while ruling out possible underlying causes. Obviously something like cancer being rare isn't something that's going to be on their radar initially (not without some physical indications of concern anyway) but as you rightly stated a series of common blood checks is bloody obvious! That is of course assuming that they don't have a high degree of confidence in what their diagnosis is.

    Mental health is a stickler. The idea is to move towards brain scans, blood tests, adrenal testing, and cognitive therapies. When they'll actually get there is anyone's guess. Any illness, be it mental or physical, has both physical and mental manifestations. Far too often medical practitioners ignore those outside their discipline. :(
    I disagree. The hippie schools encourage creativity and individuality, two traits that will be more or less immune to the technological changes that will transform the workplace over the coming decades - but as I say, this probably merits a different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

    Also, any education system that embraces normal human variation rather than treating it as a pathology has a lot going for it, I think.

    Society isn't built that way. Nor is any modern economy. School and education in general gears us towards the 'safer' career paths. Not an occupation where you'll make a bomb. Just an occupation where'll you be able to survive with a decent enough quality of life. The reason that we can't all be novellists or individuals or artists or whatever profession you ascribe here is because creativity's payoff is based on population inversion. One singer needs a few thousand listeners. Regardless of whether there is only 10 singers, or 1 million, they still need a desired number of listeners to make their living. The problem is that the more singers you have the more dilution of listeners that will generally take place. To put it simply, if everyone was a career dependent singer, no one would ever make money from singing. Regardless of the number of singers, only a very small percentage will ever be in a position to make a career out of the discipline. That's the way the discipline works. Same for comedians, novelists, actors etc. These are niche areas where most people who try simply will not make it. Success stories may serve to motivate others, people should always chase their dreams but they should be realistic about their expectations. Most artists of any kind make sweet fck all money - and technology, or lack thereof, won't change that.
    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Are you actually for real? It's a well known fact that doctors are over prescribing xanx and valum up and down the country, and alot of the time these people don't need em. As I said, I have first hand experience of miss diagnosed depression.

    Got a source for this 'fact'? The consensus of the information I've read indicate otherwise. All I'm aware of that exists is a journalist "investigation" where a journalist gave almost carbon copy explanations of the symptoms of depression. A bit like me walking into a GP and giving carbon copy explanations of a heart attack and wondering if their initial diagnosis will be anything other than an urgent ECG and possible referral to A&E.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Yes that's true. I'm not the only one with this experience though, and I know lots of young people make up the symptoms to get access to free drugs. Up john 90s are fast becoming Irelands most popular drug and these are got on prescriptions.

    Up what's??! I can assure you no one would make up symptoms to take the medication I have to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Now this could be miles off the mark, and sorry if I offend anyone. But I wonder if theres any link between ADHD/ADD and their upbringing? Any of these kids that I know (just the ones that I know) come from a single mother or lower class familys? Is there any stats available I wonder. Do many kids from well off families with 2 parents get this 'illness' or whatever it is? Again, not trying to offend anyone, just asking the question. Then again most people I know or associate with are from 'lower class' so im just curious.

    Where there is more money, there is more diagnosis. Diagnosis is expensive so wealthier districts will have more assessment. That does not necessarily mean one class of people has more organic sources of the disorder or disability than the other.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    PucaMama wrote:
    Up what's??! I can assure you no one would make up symptoms to take the medication I have to.


    Up john 90s is the name written on a 90mg xanx tablet. I can assure you people will do anything to get high.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    Turtwig wrote:
    Got a source for this 'fact'? The consensus of the information I've read indicate otherwise. All I'm aware of that exists is a journalist "investigation" where a journalist gave almost carbon copy explanations of the symptoms of depression. A bit like me walking into a GP and giving carbon copy explanations of a heart attack and wondering if their initial diagnosis will be anything other than an urgent ECG and possible referral to A&E.


    How can I possibly prove it? Go around all the rough estates and round up all these people and bring them on here to testify? I grew up with these people, still talk to some of them and i have taking xanx with them before I got some sense. know whats going on and it's happening all over the country. Obviously not every doctor is the same and they're is good ones. My own partner was diagnosed with depression at 16 years of age, put on Dolmain sleeping tablets and some other kind of anti depressant. Made her worse if anything. Moved towns and changed doctors about a year after that. The new doctor decided to run some tests, figured it was an overactive thyroid, gave her medication for that and she has been fine since. Doctors are giving out these tablets too easily, and people are abusing them, it's sad to see the state they are in now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    The plural of anecdote isn't evidence.

    Case(s) in point:
    I know at least ten people over 80 in great, absolutely fantastic, health. Ergo, old people don't have serious health concerns.

    Everyone I know has had a contact with nuts. None of them went into anaphylactic shock! Nuts are safe for everyone.

    Everybody I know owns blue cars. Therefore most people in Ireland own blue cars.

    You cannot state something as a fact, unless you can substantiate it to a reasonable degree. Anecdotes are no where near a reasonable level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    ComfortKid wrote:
    Up john 90s is the name written on a 90mg xanx tablet. I can assure you people will do anything to get high.

    Then call it Xanax, yes there are people conning their way into getting these medicines but it's an insult to people who genuinely need them. Guess I'm lucky to have a decent GP. When I turn up totally overwhelmed with the world he won't just give me anything. But he does listen to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    ComfortKid wrote: »
    Alcoholics saying they have a disease is one of the worst, It's just a bad habit. Addiction.

    I disagree, wholeheartedly. Picking your nose is a bad habit, eating with your mouth open is a bad habit.

    Destroying yourself, your family and damaging everyone and everything around you is addiction, be it condition or disease it is certainly not a bad habit.

    Nobody set out in life with the ambition to become an addict.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    Turtwig wrote:
    Case(s) in point: I know at least ten people over 80 in great, absolutely fantastic, health. Ergo, old people don't have serious health concerns.

    Turtwig wrote:
    The plural of anecdote isn't evidence.

    Turtwig wrote:
    Everyone I know has had a contact with nuts. None of them went into anaphylactic shock! Nuts are safe for everyone.

    Turtwig wrote:
    Everybody I know owns blue cars. Therefore most people in Ireland own blue cars.

    Turtwig wrote:
    The plural of anecdote isn't evidence.

    Turtwig wrote:
    Case(s) in point: I know at least ten people over 80 in great, absolutely fantastic, health. Ergo, old people don't have serious health concerns.

    Turtwig wrote:
    Everyone I know has had a contact with nuts. None of them went into anaphylactic shock! Nuts are safe for everyone.

    Turtwig wrote:
    Everybody I know owns blue cars. Therefore most people in Ireland own blue cars.

    Turtwig wrote:
    You cannot state something as a fact, unless you can substantiate it to a reasonable degree. Anecdotes are no where near a reasonable level.


    It is a fact. I don't know how I can prove it to you. There's gangs of these people in every town in Ireland. You just stick your head in the sand there until a few doctors come out and admit that they are over prescribing people. (Not going to happen)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    FortySeven wrote:
    I disagree, wholeheartedly. Picking your nose is a bad habit, eating with your mouth open is a bad habit.


    I'm addicted to cigarettes but thats not a disease, I'd call it a habit I can't get rid of. Why is alcohol addiction any different? I feel sorry for alcoholics, it must be horrible to not be able to go a day without booze, its horrible for they're families too. I just dont think alcoholism is a dissease.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭ComfortKid


    PucaMama wrote:
    Then call it Xanax, yes there are people conning their way into getting these medicines but it's an insult to people who genuinely need them. Guess I'm lucky to have a decent GP. When I turn up totally overwhelmed with the world he won't just give me anything. But he does listen to me.


    Up john 90s is the street name, it's printed on the tablets. Same thing.

    Listen I'm not saying you dont need your tablets or that you dont have depression,or that every doctor is at it. I'm saying that theres people, alot of people getting prescribed these tablets, and sleeping tablets when they dont need them. And they're is people that do need them that are getting way to many of them.


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