Interested in Messianic Fellowship?

JimiTime · 16-04-2012 1:50pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Just a small post to any new readers looking for a more hebrew roots fellowship
we very recently launched a blog www.spiritualbabies.net

much study has occured over the last few months

If any one is interested please visit us or some great info can be found:

www.rabbiscott.com
www.crownofmessiah.com
www.ffoz.com

Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Although Jesus said Only the Father know when he shall come again, he did expect Sabbath to be help at that time. Indeed, John even mentions Sabbath in Revelations.

I love that passage.. it shows such concern for his people.

Hi Tinyark. You should check out Michael Brown at www.askdrbrown.org He's a messianic Jew, and his insights are fantastic. He has some great books you'd probably be into like 'Answering Jewish objections to Jesus' etc. He also strikes a great balance on the whole Jewish/Christian thing in terms of feast observance etc. I've found him a wealth of knowledge and inspiration.

Tinyark · 16-04-2012 2:19pm

Thanks alot

ill definitely go and see what he has to say

wolfsbane · 22-04-2012 8:08pm

You might like this new (free) on-line journal about Israel in God's purpose:
ONE16 is CWI’s free online theological journal. The subject of Israel and the Jewish people is one of the most contentious and divisive issues within evangelicalism, and has generated a variety of opinions, attitudes and controversies. ONE16 is our attempt to address some of the issues surrounding Israel and to generate some light rather than heat.
http://www.cwi.org.uk/public/library/onlinepublications.html?utm_source=CWI+Supporters&utm_campaign=063e986f15-ONE16_1_main_list4_20_2012&utm_medium=email

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Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

sinsin · 27-04-2012 3:42am

Just some advice to Christians.
Jesus is your Messiah.
If you are waiting for the Jewish Messiah and believe that Jesus was a charlatan the same as Shabbatai Tzvi and Jacob Frank,then this is for you.
I am no expert but I am certain that waiting for the Jewish Messiah means that you believe Jesus was a ? and you want to convert to Judaism.

Be very cautious and get some advice as the OP is moving about rapidly and not addressing the issue clearly in everyday English.

PDN · 27-04-2012 4:14am

sinsin wrote: »

Just some advice to Christians.
Jesus is your Messiah.
If you are waiting for the Jewish Messiah and believe that Jesus was a charlatan the same as Shabbatai Tzvi and Jacob Frank,then this is for you.
I am no expert but I am certain that waiting for the Jewish Messiah means that you believe Jesus was a ? and you want to convert to Judaism.

Be very cautious and get some advice as the OP is moving about rapidly and not addressing the issue clearly in everyday English.

I would strongly suggest you try reading up on Messianic Jews and what they believe. Messianic Jews retain their Jewish roots yet worship Jesus as the Messiah.

(Btw, I do not subscribe to Messianic Judaism myself, I have grave reservations about it, but I felt it was important to correct your mischaracterisation of their position)

Tinyark · 27-04-2012 11:24am

Hi everyone!

Sinsin... just to clarify..

Jesus (as the English translation of the greek name for Yeshua) was, is and was always to be Messiah.

'Messianic Jews' and Torah Observant Gentiles (or.. hebrew roots etc what ever people want to call them) believe in the Cross and in Yeshua..

are we waiting for a Jewish Messiah to come again? Yes!

After all He was Jewish lol. He was circumsised at 8 days and named like all other Jewish babies, attended Synagogue, held passover (in fact all the Jewish feasts) as did Paul, James, Peter and the rest of the disciples for hundreds of years

Like it or not, Christianity is built on the Cross of a Jewish Messiah and the Grace given to us all is from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

These are not things i say to cause a fight. They are simple items that are truth.

Do these mean you cannot worship a blond haired, blue eyed Jesus that played with lambs and children? Of course not.. but remember that Jesus whipped the stall holders of the Temple and preached we are to keep his commandments.

The bible is the awesome word of G-d.. but needs to be read in context and which a knowledge of what was happening at the time.

Shabbat Shalom..

have a wonderful weekend!

For the King

wolfsbane · 28-04-2012 8:15pm

Tinyark wrote: »

Hi everyone!

Sinsin... just to clarify..

Jesus (as the English translation of the greek name for Yeshua) was, is and was always to be Messiah.

'Messianic Jews' and Torah Observant Gentiles (or.. hebrew roots etc what ever people want to call them) believe in the Cross and in Yeshua..

are we waiting for a Jewish Messiah to come again? Yes!

After all He was Jewish lol. He was circumsised at 8 days and named like all other Jewish babies, attended Synagogue, held passover (in fact all the Jewish feasts) as did Paul, James, Peter and the rest of the disciples for hundreds of years

Like it or not, Christianity is built on the Cross of a Jewish Messiah and the Grace given to us all is from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

These are not things i say to cause a fight. They are simple items that are truth.

Do these mean you cannot worship a blond haired, blue eyed Jesus that played with lambs and children? Of course not.. but remember that Jesus whipped the stall holders of the Temple and preached we are to keep his commandments.

The bible is the awesome word of G-d.. but needs to be read in context and which a knowledge of what was happening at the time.

Shabbat Shalom..

have a wonderful weekend!

For the King

I agree with that, my brother - but we need to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and thus abolished it. He brought in the New Covenant, and its laws are not identical to the laws of the Old Covenant.

For example, gone are the requirements for circumcision, abstention from unclean meats, observance of holy days.

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Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Tinyark · 28-04-2012 8:43pm

Thanks for the post Wolfsbane

Have a great week in the Kings love.

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1Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 5:48am

Reading this thread gives me cause for concern. I am always puzzled by the confusion.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH = The One True God = The Creator

Yeshua (Jesus) = Messiah (Christ)

Those two things are our common ground. They are absolute.

Messianics believe in these fundamental truths. We also believe in the Holy Spirit. Where we differ from "mainstream Christianity" is:
1. We do not celebrate man made holidays, but keep the Holy Feast Days as set up by Our Heavenly Father...
* Ex 12:24 " And you shall observe this thing as an ordinance for you and your sons forever." ( referring to the Passover)
2. We believe that the Torah is alive and well in the 21st Century. The Instruction (mistranslated as Law) is still in effect.
* John 14:15 "If you love Me, then keep My commandments." (Yeshua speaking. He and the Father are one, so the commandments are not just the 2 he said the Torah and the Prophets were "hung on". Almost everything Yeshua said was quoting the Scripture- which was only the OT.)
3. We are relearning the Jewish traditions ( not for salvation) for a better understanding of the Scriptures and teachings of Yeshua. Much of His teachings are hidden from us, when we do not understand the culture in which they were given.
4. We choose the Hebrew names, mostly because every Hebrew name is a small sentence and means something. Not so in some other languages.
* YHWH = Yehovah=Yah (as I understand it, per Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson) also pronounced Yahweh by many. We are told to "Call upon the Name of the Lord"...How can we call upon His name, unless we learn it?
* Yeshua / Y'shua = means Yehovah's salvation or Yehovah saves
5. We believe Yeshua saves by grace and we serve out of love for Him. He removes the curse of the "Law" ( better translated Instructions). John 14:16 "And I will petition the Father, and He will give another one which will end the curse+, the He may remain with you forever," This is referring to the Holy Spirit ( Spirit of Truth). The word "curse" in this verse comes from an Aramaic word that is commented on, in my Hebrew translation of the NT. "The Aramaic word here literally translates as the one who ends the curse, which is referring to the curse of Adam at creation for disobeying Elohim, and is lifted through the Holy Spirit." (HalleluYah!!)

I have found many good teachings on the internet. Youtube has many videos, but there is also alot of garbage out there. The most scripturally accurate versions of videos I have found are:
Michael Rood -A Rood Awakening
Kieth Bailey - The House of Israel
Brad Scott - The Wild Vine Ministries
Jim Staley - Passion for Truth Ministry
Nehemia Gordon - Karaite Jew, Scholar, and Professor of Ancient Hebrew
Keith Johnson - Methodist Preacher & Author

Oh, I almost forgot one of the main things we believe and it is just common place for me, so almost forgot it, lol. We believe in the 7th Day Sabbath of the Holy Father, per Genisi 2:3.

We also know that Yeshua was teaching that we are to follow the teachings of Moses ( the Law) but not the teachings of men....the Rabbinical Laws, the Papal Dogma, nor the Western Christian Dogma. We are all instructed to study Scripture and to learn on our own. We are each to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

If you need to get a perspective on the size and awesome power of our Creator...Look up Louie Giglio on Youtube. Check out his "How Great is our God" video...full version.

He is awesome, not Messianic, but awesome and loves The Father!!

There is much to the Messianic belief and the reason for not calling ourselves "Jewish" nor "Christian"( r/t the holidays here).
Yeshua was not a "Christian" He was not Greek. He was an Israelite and kept the feasts and the Sabbaths and expected us to as well. "Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect"....Yeshua's own words.:)

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 6:17am

wolfsbane wrote: »

I agree with that, my brother - but we need to remember that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and thus abolished it. He brought in the New Covenant, and its laws are not identical to the laws of the Old Covenant.

For example, gone are the requirements for circumcision, abstention from unclean meats, observance of holy days.

*********************************************************************
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

1. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant:
Maybe a word study on the words translated as "New Covenant" would help. The word translated as "New" means to renew. The portion of the covenant that was done away with was the lack of forgiveness under the animal blood. Yeshua's blood purchased our forgiveness by the sprinkling of it. This is the renewal. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, a set apart flesh and blood symbol of the covenant. The new covenant is a renewal of the old with the forgiveness via the precious blood of Messiah.
2. The New Covenant: YHWH made a covenant with Moses and the people of Israel. Israel kept "playing the harlot" and going after strange gods. YHWH was angry and divorced Israel. He broke the staff of the covenant. However, His own prophecies said that He would gather Israel to Himself as His bride. How can this be, if by His own law, He cannot remarry her...she has played the harlot. Yeshua HAD to be YHWH. He HAD to die, to satisfy the requirement of the Law. This is the only way YHWH could take His bride, in the end. The husband had to die, to free Israel for remarriage.

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!

The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

philologos · 26-05-2012 7:47am

RandsomedChild wrote: »

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

Your position is becoming less and less clear now. There are passages that clearly suggest that dietary laws have been fulfilled. Mark 7 is one of them.

Mark 7:14-23 wrote:

And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

There are plenty of other references in the New Testament but that is one of them.

As for observing feast days and rituals. Again the New Testament is quite clear on it. One reference that is useful is.

Colossians 2:16-17 wrote:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

The rituals and festivals point to Jesus. There's no obligation for any Christian to observe them, likewise there is no prohibition.

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 9:10am

philologos wrote: »

Your position is becoming less and less clear now. There are passages that clearly suggest that dietary laws have been fulfilled. Mark 7 is one of them.

There are plenty of other references in the New Testament but that is one of them.

As for observing feast days and rituals. Again the New Testament is quite clear on it. One reference that is useful is.

The rituals and festivals point to Jesus. There's no obligation for any Christian to observe them, likewise there is no prohibition.

The phrase about 'declaring all foods clean' is not in the original Greek, check a few different translations into KJV and other (better ones) and it it not in scripture. If Jesus declared all food clean then why did Peter protest years later during his vision saying to G-d 'Me? No! I have never defiled myself with unclean food!' (paraphrase)

Besides, that line of text simply is not there. Also it is important to remember bracketed and italic words are not in the original text.. the translators added them.

As regards the col: quote. There is quite a story in the letters of Paul outlining the fact people where trying to condemn him as a man who did not preach the word of G-d. He declares, as does James and Peter, that he only EVER spoke the 'law' of G-d. It is important to realise the church teaches the letters of Paul but not the context. 'Christians' prefer the easy path, the broad way.. it is easier to imagine Paul, a servant of Jesus writing to a new set of believers,

'hey! look i know G-d has for 4000 years been REALLY clear within His written word what we are and are not to do.. and i know He send Jesus, His son to die for the cost of our Sin, and i know that these sins are the breaking of the laws and i know that Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments... but... you dont have too.. take it from me.. its fine. Dont worry about them.'

Paul taught the Torah 'Teachings'. Jesus only every expanded Torah to people.. after all he WAS the the WORD.

Paul was writing to a group of people whom He already instructed.. a group of people who where a mixed group of gentiles and Jewish believers in Messiah.

Paul was not saying 'in general dont worry about the feast days' he was saying 'dont not let your unbelieving pagan friends and family bother you when you observe the Lords day'.

The 'shadows of things to come' reference is not a dead one.. the feasts and signs of our wonderful creator are messages of when Messiah is comming back.

This weekend is Shavuot, ( a G-d given feast not man made ).. The lord G-d asked His people to count 49 days from Passover and on the next day observe Shavout. The Greeks translating this called the final day 'the 50' that is to say, Pentecost.

Acts 2 outlines the pouring of the holy spirit in the temple room, This is not the first time the Holy Spirit came to earth...
Also on the VERY SAME DAY.. Moses received the revelation and teaching from G-d at Sinai.

Jesus was slain at Passover to the very same HOUR that G-d asked for the lambs to be sacrificed at temple.

The other feasts of the lord point to His return. The lunar and solar eclipses mentioned on Revelation fall on these Feast days in 2014 and 2015.. and after that they never fall on G-d feast days again.. ever.

www.spiritualbabies.net

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 9:23am

I would like to just say..

there is no obligation for 'Christians' to follow the obserances G-d set out for all His children.

Grace saves, always has.. there are not cases of these observances in them self redeeming anyone in the whole bible.

However..

Scripture says is you love and believe in Jesus and G-d you will follow His commandments.

Many will come to Jesus and say, Lord Lord... look at all the things i did for you!

Jesus (whom John called the word and was the word ...) will say i (the law of G-d, word, teachings, Torah) do not recognise you.

I believe some followers of 'Jesus' who by a perfect default walk in there lives will reach salvation..

Yeshua (jesus's real name) said..

He who does not do the least of my commandments (word Mitzvot) and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom.. He who does keeps (notice it is keep... because he is talking to a group who already KNEW and kept G-d teachings) them will be called the greated.

Ask yourself. What is Sin? Does Sin change?

Is Sin different now than in the beginning?

How can i sin?

Sin is always breaking G-ds law.. God is the same yesterday as today as forever.

The OT says, nothing can be added or taken away from the teachings of G-d..

Therefore.. the Sin is breaking the Law that is FOREVER in place set up by G-d.

Jesus does not take the sin.. only the COST of that Sin.. spiritual death. (its all in the New Testement)

philologos · 26-05-2012 9:50am

No, there is no obligation because we've been justified by Jesus' saving death on the cross. What we are called to do is live in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel. Recognising God's abundant grace leads us into a life whereby we follow Him.

The kind of Christianity that you are presenting fails to recognise that Jesus brought in a New Covenant agreement with mankind. As the Old Testament also makes explicitly clear. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8 if you want a fuller understanding.

Someone else said that New Covenant in the Hebrew doesn't say New Covenant, but the following words make up the Jeremiah 31:31-34 passage:
2319. חָדָשׁ chadash (294a); from 2318; new:—new(47), New(2), new thing(1), new things(2), something new(1).
1285. בְּרִית berith (136b); from an unused word; a covenant:—allied(1), allies*(1), covenant(275), covenants(1), El-berith*(1), league(2), treaty(4).

There's no room for a Jewish supremacy in the Christian church. I have no issue with people deciding they might want to observe Jewish festivals, or eat kosher. It is clearly wrong to claim that Gentiles must do these also. Just take a quick read of Galatians.

Mark 7 in the Greek clearly includes the annotation, see my attached image with the passage in the ESV and the interlinear underneath. Your interpretation of Acts 10 is also a little bit suspect. You presume that the disciples actually understood Jesus' aim in Mark's Gospel all the way throughout. This isn't true. Mark's Gospel in chapter 8 for example shows that Peter only recognised Jesus was the Christ then. Mark's Gospel also shows serious misunderstandings amongst the disciples as to why Jesus had to die and be resurrected. It's highly likely that Peter didn't truly understand the significance of the events in Mark 7 until later.

Your position was strongly contended against by the Apostles in the early church right from the beginning. I can't take people arguing for Jewish supremacy in Christianity seriously because the New Testament explicitly lays out that Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female we're all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 12:25pm

philologos wrote: »

No, there is no obligation because we've been justified by Jesus' saving death on the cross. What we are called to do is live in a manner that is worthy of the Gospel. Recognising God's abundant grace leads us into a life whereby we follow Him.

The kind of Christianity that you are presenting fails to recognise that Jesus brought in a New Covenant agreement with mankind. As the Old Testament also makes explicitly clear. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8 if you want a fuller understanding.

Someone else said that New Covenant in the Hebrew doesn't say New Covenant, but the following words make up the Jeremiah 31:31-34 passage:
2319. חָדָשׁ chadash (294a); from 2318; new:—new(47), New(2), new thing(1), new things(2), something new(1).
1285. בְּרִית berith (136b); from an unused word; a covenant:—allied(1), allies*(1), covenant(275), covenants(1), El-berith*(1), league(2), treaty(4).

There's no room for a Jewish supremacy in the Christian church. I have no issue with people deciding they might want to observe Jewish festivals, or eat kosher. It is clearly wrong to claim that Gentiles must do these also. Just take a quick read of Galatians.

Mark 7 in the Greek clearly includes the annotation, see my attached image with the passage in the ESV and the interlinear underneath. Your interpretation of Acts 10 is also a little bit suspect. You presume that the disciples actually understood Jesus' aim in Mark's Gospel all the way throughout. This isn't true. Mark's Gospel in chapter 8 for example shows that Peter only recognised Jesus was the Christ then. Mark's Gospel also shows serious misunderstandings amongst the disciples as to why Jesus had to die and be resurrected. It's highly likely that Peter didn't truly understand the significance of the events in Mark 7 until later.

Your position was strongly contended against by the Apostles in the early church right from the beginning. I can't take people arguing for Jewish supremacy in Christianity seriously because the New Testament explicitly lays out that Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female we're all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

If all foods are clean, maybe we should start eating hamsters, donkeys and rats.

Of course not? Why?

Mark 7 is about washing hands before eating and if having unclean hands before eating effects us. Not about food.

Also, food is defined as what Jesus and the scribes and in fact the whole of the Jewish people defined from Torah. The question here was not about food but handwashing. Everyone knew in this conversation which animals where clean and unclean and ONLY clean animal would have been considered food.

As regards to Jewish supremacy. That sounds odd. You as a Christian follow a Jewish messiah.

I will bow out for now.

It is only G-d who can make a change in your views

2peter says Paul was obedient and righteous to the teachings of G-d. That his letters where sometimes hard to understand for the ignorant and twisted by the lawless.

Shalom shalom.

Have a blessed day and Shavuot.

philologos · 26-05-2012 4:18pm

You mean if you ignore what I've already shown you in Mark 7 and the text in the brackets is contained in the Greek interlinear, and ignore the concept of a New Covenant as in Jeremiah 31, and ignore numerous passages in Paul's writing that suggests that the Mosaic law was fulfilled through Christ, and that people shouldn't feel guilty about eating anything that is in the market in 1 Corinthians 10:23-33.

As for eating hamster, donkeys (Edit: my bad - they don't have split hooves donkeys are actually kosher!), and rats as a Christian, I don't believe the New Covenant precludes people eating any of those things. They don't appeal to me in the slightest though

.

Romans 14:1-12 gives us more groundwork on ritual days, or food consumption.

In terms of Mark 7, you're correct that the context is in terms of washing hands, but the implication of Jesus' answer is further reaching. He says that all that is unclean comes out of the mouth, it is not what goes in. Jesus is the bearer of the New Covenant, and more than just a bearer, a beloved Son.

You seem to have missed my point about Jewish supremacy. I know that Jesus was Jewish, and I know that the Apostles were Jewish. What I mean is simple. It isn't that Jewish people or Judaism is better, rather it is that Jews and Gentiles are one under Christ. We are one under the Gospel.

As I've said before. I have no issue whatsoever with there being Jewish forms of Christianity, infact I would praise such a development. What I do have an issue with is insisting that Gentiles follow Jewish ritual laws (such as dietary laws and observing Jewish feasts) is incompatible with the New Testament and what it has to tell us about who Jesus is, and more importantly why He came.

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 4:38pm

my point is unclean animal would not have been considered 'food'. It would never have crossed peoples minds to eat pork anymore than we would consider eating hamster.

Jesus still considers swine abhorent, keeps the feasts and sabbath and torah in revelation.

G-d is forever, His word is forever.. there are no lies in the word of

g-d only in the way it is taught.

The word of G-d says you cannot add or take away from the law of G-d.

anything that is thought to do this has to be an error on behalf of the reader.. or the reader does not believe in the word of G-d.

The word is always the tool to define the word.

philologos · 26-05-2012 4:44pm

Under the Old Covenant, God told the Jewish people to be distinct from the nations around them until the point by which His grace would be displayed to all men. As Jesus has come, there is no such distinction any longer, we're all under Christ (Ephesians 2:1-10). We were far off, by nature children of wrath, but Jesus came and broke the division.

Again, you've provided no reasoning to suggest why Paul and Jesus both say that the dietary laws have been fulfilled, and you've provided no reasoning as to why Jesus and the Tanakh actually proclaimed a New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-32 wrote:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.

How do you explain Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 10, and Mark 7, and also Jeremiah 31:31-34? I'm interested in discussing this with you, but you seem to be ignoring these passages.

It seems, either God formed a new covenant agreement with mankind, or God has left us in the old covenant entirely. Which is it?

Tinyark · 26-05-2012 5:07pm

Covenants are not 'new' and 'old'

Does G-d now flood the earth because of our sin? He made a covenant with Noah.. ? Doe the 'new' covenant with Abraham wipe out Noahs?

As for Romans 14 .. If we are to choose one day to worship that is not the Shabbat (G-ds day) then as least keep it. People do not even honour the day they choose to be the lords day.. church then home, dinner and football..

People always concentrate on Paul because paul is so easy to twist.

What about the actual words of Messiah?

I can not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.. (better translated 'preach it to its fullest).. for not one jot or tittle (small marks used to adorn hebrew text) shall pass away from the law till heaven and earth passaway.

..

Messiah preached to follow the Torah. We was the Torah.

---

Honestly, im not trying to convert. Im trying to open eyes to the truth, but just like Pharaoh, this is a job for G-d, not me.

A loving heart brought me here to try and shed some context on the words of Paul (a Torah observant, Kosher, Shabbat and feast observing follower of Yeshua .. who said to all.. Follow me as i follow Him)..

I try only to show truth. The Bible is its own standard and absolutely the word of G-d. Psalms says the Torah is light, the way and the truth.

John said Yeshua was the word..

Yeshua said he was the light, the way and the truth.

Did Yeshua abolish himself on the cross?

The truth in this case is this, we are asked in Torah to show that faith brings grace and that true faith brings loving obedience. Obedience denies lawlessness and lawlessness leads to sin.

If we do not have the law (teachings) then we cannot have sin.

If there is not Sin why do we need to be saved? Actually how can we sin?

The Bible says to proclaim the Gospel or Good news.

The bible also says the Gospel was given to Abraham by G-d..so it cant simply be about the cross..

I proclaim this.

We all break G-ds commandments, the cost of this is spiritual death, if we believe in Yeshua, the son of G-d, and that His death on the cross in our place saves us then we can start afresh before G-d. Faith and love for G-d calls for our obedience to Him and His instruction, Just as Jesus walked within the law we are to do.. not for works but for faith and love and not wanting to sin..

Faith without works is dead.

Thanks for the discourse, it is plain to me your heart is hardened to the actual words of G-d in the books of moses.. it seems forever is not forever to some people.

Ill bow out now. Enjoy a blessed shabbat and i pray you have a wonderful walk with G-d. Shalom Shalom.

philologos · 26-05-2012 5:25pm

I'm confused as to how my heart is hardened to the word of God, when I am presenting Scripture to you, and presenting the early church position on Judaisers (people who insisted that Gentile Christians be Jewish).

It clearly presents two covenants. The Mosaic covenant for the Jews in the Torah bound State of Israel, and the New Covenant for Jews and Gentiles who will follow the Lord Jesus.

As for Paul, Paul lived like a Gentile when He was with Gentiles, and a Jew when He was with Jews. He advocated eating anything in the market without regarding it as a matter of conscience (1 Corinthians 10:23-33).

The Gospel was given to Abraham, because He acknowledged that He was justified by faith alone. By the by, it's incredibly important to remember that Jesus existed before Creation, and it is important to notice that irrespective of when the crucifixion happened, people past, present and future can be justified by it. Abraham was reckoned righteous through faith, and we his heirs of many nations can be justified by it as well. We are not justified by the law.

I agree by the by, faith without works which honour the Gospel is dead. We are justified by faith through the saving death of King Jesus. Jesus brought us into a new covenant relationship with God, because if we were under the old one, we'd be all guilty and rightfully deserving of hell. God in His mercy, created a new covenant so that we might be forgiven, and we might live according to grace rather than mere law.

Indeed John presents the distinction between Moses and Jesus beautifully:

John 1:17 wrote:

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

We obey God, by honouring the New Covenant which Jesus gave to us. What is fulfilled is no more. I don't have to worry about whether or not I mix different fabrics, or whether or not I eat a bit of shrimp or some bacon. The cultural division was broken by Jesus, the wall is gone (Ephesians 2:1-10). I am however called to have a heart after God, following Jesus step by step. I'm called to bring others to the knowledge of Him, and to live justly and honourably as He desires me to.

I don't think there's any twisting going on by simply presenting Paul's words, and indeed Jesus' teaching.

Oh and I have no doubt that a loving heart brought you here, I recognise your intention, but I find that what you've presented is mistaken, and that it was argued against in the early church.

RandsomedChild · 26-05-2012 9:16pm

I apologize. I did not mean that renewed covenant was the only translation, but was one of the translations. Also, the covenant was changed , in that it replaced the "covering" blood with the "cleansing" blood. That is what changed.

The Law is "not grievous". The curse of the Law was. But Yeshua has sprinkled His blood on the Ark for the forgiveness of all who seek it. Oh wait...you do not think the Ark of the Testament is no longer valid, do ya?

If Yehovah is the same yesterday, today and forever, idk how you guys can rip those passages out of the Bible and throw them away. And He said He is not a man that He changes His mind....hmmm...sounds simple enough for a child to understand.

It is a learning thing. Discussion is good.

Yeshua is consistently against the doctrines of men. He is all about following the teachings of Moses. They were HIS words.

It is like this...you have a child. The child is 3 yrs old. You do not communicate or teach the child like it is 13. He would not understand. He would be overwhelmed and confused. You teach as the child is able to understand. But when he is 13 you should not communicate as if he is 3. This reduces his ability to learn and think for himself. It is crippling. It is much the same with Yehovah. He is a "tough-love" parent. He IS love, but sometimes love requires stepping back and letting your child fall, so he will learn. He is consistent, honest, full of integrity, faithful, just and true. If you need scriptural references for this statement, open the Bible at Genesis and read to Revelation. He gives us His guidelines and then deals with each of us individually.
By His Holy Spirit we receive strength, boldness and power to follow after the Messiah...as He says..."Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect." Or maybe all the times He said, "Your sins are forgiven you, go and SIN NO MORE." We must strive to live in righteousness. We may fail, but we must do our best. Yeshua would not tell us to do something that we cannot complete. He gives the strength. But, He also provides the remedy for our shortcomings. Living in lawlessness is what brings the curses on our land and cause the diseases and hardships we are facing.

The "New Advent" and it's origination : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm
Very interesting reading.

In Messiah's service,
Shalom..:)

philologos · 26-05-2012 9:38pm

I never said the Law was grievous? - I also never suggested that we rip up the Bible. Rather all I'm suggesting is that Christians read the Bible in the light of Christ. The reason why I don't advocate the death penalty is because Jesus paid the price for my sin, therefore how on earth could I demand such a price from others for their sin? The death penalty is a key part of the Torah law, but in the light of Christ, we see this differently. We need to read the Torah on the basis of what we understand from King Jesus.

Paul backs this up as well.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 wrote:

Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

As does Hebrews chapter 8.

The New Covenant simply unveils what God's ultimate purpose for mankind is. The fulfilment through King Jesus. Many people in the past longed for what was revealed to us as Christians. The Old Covenant is the backstory to something much greater.

I'm not presenting anything radical. This stuff was taught in the early church from the beginning. God is the same, the covenant relationship with us is different.

HamletOrHecuba · 27-05-2012 1:35am

http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/

Some genuinely interesting and enlightening articles here from a scholarly point of view.

RandsomedChild · 27-05-2012 5:30pm

Philo, I am sorry. I was not saying You in a literal sense and was not in the right mindset here. I do apologize. I was following a discussion with someone, in person, and let that feeling overflow into this. I should have just not written anything at that point.
Shalom!!

wolfsbane · 01-06-2012 7:17pm

RandsomedChild wrote: »

1. Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant:
Maybe a word study on the words translated as "New Covenant" would help. The word translated as "New" means to renew. The portion of the covenant that was done away with was the lack of forgiveness under the animal blood. Yeshua's blood purchased our forgiveness by the sprinkling of it. This is the renewal. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, a set apart flesh and blood symbol of the covenant. The new covenant is a renewal of the old with the forgiveness via the precious blood of Messiah.
2. The New Covenant: YHWH made a covenant with Moses and the people of Israel. Israel kept "playing the harlot" and going after strange gods. YHWH was angry and divorced Israel. He broke the staff of the covenant. However, His own prophecies said that He would gather Israel to Himself as His bride. How can this be, if by His own law, He cannot remarry her...she has played the harlot. Yeshua HAD to be YHWH. He HAD to die, to satisfy the requirement of the Law. This is the only way YHWH could take His bride, in the end. The husband had to die, to free Israel for remarriage.

There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.

No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!

The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

Just to add to philologos' excellent response:

No, the New Covenant is not a re-hash of the Old Covenant. The New is entirely dependant on God's action - writing His Law on our minds (Jeremiah), giving a new heart (Ezekiel). He causes us to faithfully follow Him. The Old Covenant depended on man's response - 'do this and live'. It was perfectly holy, but man is not, so the Law (the Old Covenant) was unable to make us right with God. The New Covenant gives us a new heart/nature and cleanses us by Christ' blood. It cannot fail. Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

You said: There is NO scripture to support eating of unclean meats. NONE.
Try this:Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You said: No scripture supporting changing of His Holy Feast Days!
Try this: Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

And this: Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

You said: The Law is not done away....YHWH is the same today, yesterday and forever. Psalm 111: 7&8

The eternal, moral Law is written on our hearts. But the Old Covenant - commonly called the Law - is abolished:
Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

You said: Rev. 12:17 "...those keeping the commandments of YHWH and having the testimony of Yeshua Messiah."

The commandments of YHWH no longer include the types and shadows of the Old Covenant - unclean foods, mixed-material garments, etc. Only the solely moral laws remain.

*****************************************************************
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Tinyark · 09-07-2012 5:39pm

keeping the thread alive!

if any Torah pursuant followers want to get in touch please feel free.

***********************

Many will say 'Lord, Lord' but I was say I do not know you, get away from me, you who practice Torahlessness.

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 10:53am

The part in red may have been written tongue in cheek but fairly much shows your position. You have exchanged freedom in Christ for the rules and regulations that were intended to point to Him. I've been in Egypt, I have no intention of returning

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 11:08am

so the Hebrews were released from the bondage of Egypt to be placed under the bondage of G-ds word?

an interesting perspective.

In the beginning was the word.. Is then Yeshua (jesus) bondage?

SonOfAdam · 10-07-2012 12:34pm

The hebrews were released unto the 'law of sin and death' with it's rules and regulations, codes and pratices, for only through the law was sin revealed (Rom 7) and pointed to a future saviour.

Since Christ we have been 'set free from the law of sin and death' (Rom 8:2), and are no longer bound to the law as we have died with Christ and died to the law through the body of Christ - This is freedom; living through the law is not. Either Christ is your righteousness or the law is - it can't be both.

Tinyark · 10-07-2012 12:50pm

gotacha

ok.. so we are no longer need to follow the law.. we can do what we want.

thanks for setting me straight.

so you are saying that half of the bible is a lie? Deut 4?

if you love me you will keep my commandments and I will send the spirit

oh, this is a good one.

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way.

so.. if the law is gone

heaven and earth must have passed away...

Jesus either said:

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to fully teach it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way.

or

Who so ever diminishes the least of the commandments will be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven and who ever does all the commandments will be the greatest. For I have not come to abolish the law but to abolish it, for not one jot or tittle will pass from the law of G-d until heaven and earth pass way or dont.

as for Jesus.. He is the word of G-d. When you start saying the word of G-d is done away with, you do away with Yeshua.

you cannot add or take away from the word of G-d.

When you stop getting your teaching from a concordance and check the ord of G-d against itself if is obvious. Paul sacrificed animals, taught Torah and walked a Jewish walk. Jesus was Jewish and walked the walk His Father gave to Moses, Adam and Noah. The 'law' is not a law but a guide, Torah means instructions. Nothing in the Torah given to Moses was 'new' to him, Clean and unclean have been since before Adam. Do you even believe in the persons of Adam an Eve, the garden on Eden? Do you keep Christmas and Easter? Worship on a sunday? Eat unclean?

The Hebrews did not need a bible scholar to understand the Torah, Jesus did not need to leave a concordance and cross references to teach to the people in His ministry. Paul Taught Torah and then the salvation of Messiah, he followed up with letters when those in His remit made mistakes.

Its a shame you rely on teachings of other people to understand what the 'new testament' documents and ignore that whole word of G-d.

one final thought.. if the law is gone, why do the prophets and revelations say that when Messiah returns we shall follow it? Yeshua said 'hope the last days to not start on Shabbat' and when He returns He will still call Swine and Mice unclean to eat...

The lord our g-d is the same Yesterday as today and tomorrow. He does not change and neither, according to His own word, does His word.

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