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Do white people have a future in South Africa
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21-11-2014 10:51pm#1I don't even know how to start this topic. It just really interests me. During apartheid White South Africans ruled with a Iron Fist. Since the end of apartheid they don't have the rule of the land although I think they still carry most of the wealth .
Affirmative action seems to be in place in which makes it very hard for whites to get jobs now in South Africa. I think 4k white farmers have been murdered on their land in 1994.White farmers complain against racist attacks on their farms and I have watched documentaries about white slums in South Africa which would have been unheard of a few years ago
This though is all in the backdrop where blacks and coloreds are still the most vulnerable in society and crime is at its highest in townships so crimes against whites is extremely low in comparison.
I always wanted to visit the country and planned to this year but my cousin lives in Durban told me not too. He said he has 6 foot wall and then 2 meters of electric fence going around his house. He carries a gun at all times. His has store house under his stairs where he keeps more weapons. He doesn't go out after dark. Is this a way to live, is it fair and deserved.
What is the future of South Africa0
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With the exception of a few super rich individuals and those benefitting from the corruption of the ANC - there is no future for the black population of South Africa. They face a future of abject poverty and the ANC shooting them when they stand up for their rights.0
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Of course a middle ground would point out that it is one of the leading powers of the continent, rich in minerals and that the social structures and institutions that have been inherited from the British, Thus positioning it to join the BRIC powers as one of the leaders of the 21st Century surpassing a moribund Europe (at least that is one argument by analysis such as Ian Bremmer).0
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I don't even know how to start this topic. It just really interests me. During apartheid White South Africans ruled with a Iron Fist. Since the end of apartheid they don't have the rule of the land although I think they still carry most of the wealth .
Affirmative action seems to be in place in which makes it very hard for whites to get jobs now in South Africa. I think 4k white farmers have been murdered on their land in 1994.White farmers complain against racist attacks on their farms and I have watched documentaries about white slums in South Africa which would have been unheard of a few years ago
This though is all in the backdrop where blacks and coloreds are still the most vulnerable in society and crime is at its highest in townships so crimes against whites is extremely low in comparison.
I always wanted to visit the country and planned to this year but my cousin lives in Durban told me not too. He said he has 6 foot wall and then 2 meters of electric fence going around his house. He carries a gun at all times. His has store house under his stairs where he keeps more weapons. He doesn't go out after dark. Is this a way to live, is it fair and deserved.
What is the future of South Africa
Don't know much about SA, never visited or lived there (so maybe should keep quiet!) but it is an interesting subject. I think if political corruption/maladministration grows in the country, they probably have no future there.
They are such a ready-made and convenient scapegoat group for whoever is in power. They may still be relatively wealthy in SA but have little political clout. At some point a leader who is having difficulty will do a "Mugabe" on them + point to "the whites" as the reason for all problems etc and cue the exodus (or else). Am I right that there's a bit of that from Zuma? (I think he'd also be the most corrupt of recent presidents (?)) but nothing extreme as yet.0 -
Been there.scary place at night when you stick out like a sore thumb.no future for any south African under Jacob zuma .he makes our corrupt crew here look like Gandhi's mother0
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Interesting question. Many have already left seeing that they have no future in their country of birth and security is always an issue. Its a beautiful country, with great people and with lots of things going for it but massive problems and it seems it is slowly going the way of Zimbabwe.0
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I visited Cape Town in October 2013 for my nephews wedding to a South African girl. Cape Town and the surrounding region is lovely and well worth a visit. We stayed in the Victorian and Alfred Waterfront (gated community with lots of security guards). Food was excellent, service was great and everything was very cheap. Having said that I was “encouraged” not to go out alone after dark…
Note that Johannesburg and Durban have a much higher crime rate than Cape Town.
South Africa has huge amounts of mining resources and world class tourist attractions, technically a very rich and powerful country. Unfortunately it also has a corrupt ANC and Jacob Zuma who is more interested in lining his pockets and enriching his friends, exactly how Mugabwe started! The Apartheid system may be gone, but South Africa is still largely a society of “have nots”. Personally I think South Africa is teetering on the edge and if Zuma is not replaced with someone better it will become a failed state.
A final thought, the OP could equally have asked, “Do black people have a future in South Africa”. If it fails, they are the ones who will ultimately have no future, as all of the whites who can leave will have gone.0 -
A final thought, the OP could equally have asked, “Do black people have a future in South Africa”. If it fails, they are the ones who will ultimately have no future, as all of the whites who can leave will have gone.
A interesting point. You would have assumed blacks would have thrived since the rainbow nation was born
The whites seem to be isolating themselves into their own private prisons.
Has anybody heard of Orania? Basically its a small town in South Africa which is for White Afrikaans only. They want to build their own community and eventually their own state somewhat like Lesotho or Swaziland.
An interesting documentary below if anybody has time and interested in watching from BBC about a white slum in South Africa which gives an insight to how some whites are feeling in SA these days.
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Most SAs will tell you how their currency is collapsing ( like the way the Zimbabwe dollar went from us dollar parity to being worthless). A sign of a weakening currency is a failing. The SA rand only buys half the euro that it could 4 years ago.
Corruption is huge in SA. But it was never an issue with Afrikaans in power. You have to pay bribes for everything now
I had a Zimbabwean teacher and his wife told us there is still white people in Zimbabwe who still make a living in the difficult circumstances. Her husband's family owned a 5000 acre tobacco farm. The farm supported thousands of people and they even had a school on it. Robert Mugabes army arrived one night and gave his family 24 hours to leave otherwise they would be killed. His family just left immediately and took no pocessions. His farm was then given to one of Mugabe's colleague and only about 50 acres worked. This has happens to most white farmers. With no exports and no employment on farms. The economy started to collapse. Tobacco was huge for Zimbabwe. It was also called the bread basket of Africa because it used to produce grains
I would ignore the BRICS economies as being the next major world economies. Brazil is starting to show massive issues with poor infrastructure. Russia doesn't even have economic growth planned for next year. India is showing signs of a showdown and china is a massive bubble.0 -
Jesus Christ, Jacob Zuma's Wikipedia page reads like something from a TV soap.
Multiple wives and children. He seems to have no values. How can somebody like this lead a country?0 -
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I don't even know how to start this topic. It just really interests me. During apartheid White South Africans ruled with a Iron Fist. Since the end of apartheid they don't have the rule of the land although I think they still carry most of the wealth .
Affirmative action seems to be in place in which makes it very hard for whites to get jobs now in South Africa. I think 4k white farmers have been murdered on their land in 1994.White farmers complain against racist attacks on their farms and I have watched documentaries about white slums in South Africa which would have been unheard of a few years ago
This though is all in the backdrop where blacks and coloreds are still the most vulnerable in society and crime is at its highest in townships so crimes against whites is extremely low in comparison.
I always wanted to visit the country and planned to this year but my cousin lives in Durban told me not too. He said he has 6 foot wall and then 2 meters of electric fence going around his house. He carries a gun at all times. His has store house under his stairs where he keeps more weapons. He doesn't go out after dark. Is this a way to live, is it fair and deserved.
What is the future of South Africa
I was offered to go once many years ago to visit someones friends/family there, I said I'd only go if they provided me with some personal weapons, they agreed, even that it was a good idea, thats not the kind of place to go on a holiday.
Id say corruption is through the roof now from the few documentaries Ive seen, sure ffs, did you not see that guy signing at Mandelas memorial.
Id say there is still a lot of wealth in certain white families hands, but probably for the reason it holds up the SA economy, provides jobs and maybe some brown envelopes into the hands of those in power.
That seems likely the main reason to get and stay in power, to have access and control of the corrupt money flow and fund that into your own tribal/political/family hands to maintain that support, but for those further down the scale, Id be concerned in the event of the current governments misshandling things, if it goes pear shaped, certain poorer people might have the finger pointed at them and become statistics.0 -
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I don't even know how to start this topic. It just really interests me. During apartheid White South Africans ruled with a Iron Fist. Since the end of apartheid they don't have the rule of the land although I think they still carry most of the wealth .
Affirmative action seems to be in place in which makes it very hard for whites to get jobs now in South Africa. I think 4k white farmers have been murdered on their land in 1994.White farmers complain against racist attacks on their farms and I have watched documentaries about white slums in South Africa which would have been unheard of a few years ago
This though is all in the backdrop where blacks and coloreds are still the most vulnerable in society and crime is at its highest in townships so crimes against whites is extremely low in comparison.
I always wanted to visit the country and planned to this year but my cousin lives in Durban told me not too. He said he has 6 foot wall and then 2 meters of electric fence going around his house. He carries a gun at all times. His has store house under his stairs where he keeps more weapons. He doesn't go out after dark. Is this a way to live, is it fair and deserved.
What is the future of South Africa
As a South African myself (and Irish at the same time) , my opinion is to just enjoy the country for what it is.
There are places one goes to and places one does not. There are loads of places to go to in and around Durban, both at night and during the day.
There is a ton of stuff to do as well.
I had similar questions and a friend who moved from the UK back to SA a good few years ago convinced me to go back and do a few private game reserves etc.
Certainly, i grew up in Durban, i would not stay there for anything myself. There are loads of places both North and South that are so much better.
I returned to SA having changed more than the country had.
I found that the Cape is the most cosmopolitan area of all of SA.
In terms of what your friend says, some of it is true. But what's true isn't true 100% of the time.
"Do white people have a future in South Africa"????
Yes of course they do. Some of them are the even the wealthiest people on the planet.
It's not a matter of black or white, it's a matter of how much money one has or that one can influence in SA.0 -
That doesn't make it right. Someone IMO who has multiple wives doesn't have respect for women
Just because a man has different values to you doesn't mean he has none. There's plenty to chide Zuma with, so I don't see why you choose something perfectly normal to him and many others.0 -
What's the story with land repossession in SA ?
Is it part of an ANC long term or have they shyed away from the idea.
It was that that seemed to send Zimbabwe into a tail spin.0 -
Visited South Africa for the first time this year, so just my subjective impression from a short visit. My overwhelming impression was that white people are very much part of the country's future, they continue to dominate much of the economy. The Afrikaner community, in particular, has been forced to move away from a dependency on government jobs due to affirmative action and as a result there is a greater tendency to start businesses. If anything, a great many white people are a lot more prosperous than in 1994, with a world class lifestyle (crime seems to be the major drawback).
There is a tendency amongst some to confuse loss of privilege with discrimination. Undoubtedly there are issues: entrenched corruption, black economic empowerment hasn't worked as it should, and stubbornly high crime rates. All of which affect South Africans of all backgrounds.0 -
Did the ANC win in a landslide at the last elections? Is there a maximum period a president can hold office in South Africa?
According to Wikipedia (so not sure if fact) 800,000 whites have left South Africa since 1994.
Do whites still hold any high positions in the government and can influence decision making.
Something from reading the last few posts I didn't realize corruption was such a huge problem in SA.0 -
Did the ANC win in a landslide at the last elections? Is there a maximum period a president can hold office in South Africa?
According to Wikipedia (so not sure if fact) 800,000 whites have left South Africa since 1994.
Do whites still hold any high positions in the government and can influence decision making.
Something from reading the last few posts I didn't realize corruption was such a huge problem in SA.
The President can serve no more than two consecutive 5 year terms.
At a national level, there are currently two white cabinet ministers (I think?). The ANC won 62% at the last election, which is a comfortable majority but a reduced one. South Africa has a semi-federal system, of the 9 provinces only one is currently controlled by the opposition - that's the Western Cape, which is run by the Democratic Alliance (DA). The DA has had a mainly white support base in the past but it is making some inroads with black voters - slowly. There are municipal and local elections due in 2016 and it's widely believed that the ANC could lose control of some city councils - Port Elizabeth and Johannesburg may be potential wins for the opposition.
There was certainly a significant exodus of whites in the late 90s and early 2000s. Fear of crime played a big role in that, the crime situation seems to have improved since then, and as far as I know, the numbers emigrating have declined sharply and some have returned home.0 -
Benny_Cake wrote: »The President can serve no more than two consecutive 5 year terms.
At a national level, there are currently two white cabinet ministers (I think?). The ANC won 62% at the last election, which is a comfortable majority but a reduced one. South Africa has a semi-federal system, of the 9 provinces only one is currently controlled by the opposition - that's the Western Cape, which is run by the Democratic Alliance (DA). The DA has had a mainly white support base in the past but it is making some inroads with black voters - slowly. There are municipal and local elections due in 2016 and it's widely believed that the ANC could lose control of some city councils - Port Elizabeth and Johannesburg may be potential wins for the opposition.
There was certainly a significant exodus of whites in the late 90s and early 2000s. Fear of crime played a big role in that, the crime situation seems to have improved since then, and as far as I know, the numbers emigrating have declined sharply and some have returned home.
Excellent post, thank you. So Zuma is out on the next election?
I just watched a documentary on the SA army. A professional racist outfit who were put on the unemployment line in 1994. What came in to replace was untrained, unprofessional, not up to standard replacements( which seems common in SA)
A short documentary on private security in Cape Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKGzw8GROf00 -
As a South African theres always so much I want to say when these threads pop up, but it would turn into a massive long post so I end up just leaving it.
Love the country.0 -
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As a South African theres always so much I want to say when these threads pop up, but it would turn into a massive long post so I end up just leaving it.
Love the country.
You obviously have an opinion as you went to the trouble of posting on this thread so don't be a coward and say what you think.
Posts like yours are really annoying.0 -
As a South African theres always so much I want to say when these threads pop up, but it would turn into a massive long post so I end up just leaving it.
Love the country.
A white family from SA moved to a house near me about 12 years ago. They were a great family and obviously not bigoted as during their stay here they had a few visits from black friends. I became friendly with the man and he told me there were indeed many injustices there on both sides and when they left it was from a slight fear for their safety. They were from Pretoria. Anyway they lived here till 2012 and as their kids were grown up and had moved back to SA they themselves moved back to Cape Town as they felt there is a less fragile structure there now. They still keep in touch and they are fine. There is a wedding invitation here for nxt april when their eldest daughter is getting married in Cape town. Myself and Herself are going and looking forward to it.0 -
I moved here about 2 years ago. Not for safety reasons or anything to do with SA itself, but my Irish gf and our son. If it was entirely up to me id have stayed in SA. Looking to go back as it is, since finding it difficult to find employment in my field of choice, and I know my old job is waiting if we ever go back. From Cape Town myself and looking to get married there in October, and have a few of her family here who are going over for a few weeks then.A white family from SA moved to a house near me about 12 years ago. They were a great family and obviously not bigoted as during their stay here they had a few visits from black friends. I became friendly with the man and he told me there were indeed many injustices there on both sides and when they left it was from a slight fear for their safety. They were from Pretoria. Anyway they lived here till 2012 and as their kids were grown up and had moved back to SA they themselves moved back to Cape Town as they felt there is a less fragile structure there now. They still keep in touch and they are fine. There is a wedding invitation here for nxt april when their eldest daughter is getting married in Cape town. Myself and Herself are going and looking forward to it.
To answer the OP's question, and to keep it short. Everyone has a future in SA if they so wish. Certainly much better opportunities in SA, if you are a citizen, than trying to find a country that will have you, and even then having to make a living for yourself and your family.
Whether black or white or coloured, if you dont have family abroad, or some decent education, then even if you want to move abroad you will find it difficult to find a country that will have you, just because you feel like moving.
And, ive said it on here before in some other thread, long as the majority of people in SA realise that black needs white, and white needs black, and everyone respects that balance, everything will be okay. Will always have those minorities causing trouble in every country.0 -
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Excellent post, thank you. So Zuma is out on the next election?
I just watched a documentary on the SA army. A professional racist outfit who were put on the unemployment line in 1994. What came in to replace was untrained, unprofessional, not up to standard replacements( which seems common in SA)
A short documentary on private security in Cape Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKGzw8GROf0
He's definitely out at the next election. It'll be interesting to see if he makes it that far? I think he will, but he is plagued by scandals and if the ANC put in a bad performance in the municipal elections in 2016, they might feel the need to give him the push ahead of time.
There do seem to be issues with the South African army, but the transition from a force intended for domestic repression and fighting border wars to a smaller defensive force with occasional peacekeeping duties is a huge task. The force probably needs to be reduced further in size I would have thought.
One complaint I came across in South Africa was that South African expats tend to bad mouth the country when they emigrate. Great to see Jacovs not fitting that mould. It's a beautiful country and if you had a good job there the lifestyle is out of this world...and the weather! It's easy to see why some South Africans crack up and move back home after moving to northern Europe.0 -
Think me and my relatively large family have been quite lucky in that we havent been victims of violent crimes like so many of the expats. Other crimes yes, but nothing bad, by SA standards. It does taint your views when something like that happens. But theres also lots of people in SA who go through the same and cant move even if they want to, just have to get on with it.Benny_Cake wrote: »He's definitely out at the next election. It'll be interesting to see if he makes it that far? I think he will, but he is plagued by scandals and if the ANC put in a bad performance in the municipal elections in 2016, they might feel the need to give him the push ahead of time.
There do seem to be issues with the South African army, but the transition from a force intended for domestic repression and fighting border wars to a smaller defensive force with occasional peacekeeping duties is a huge task. The force probably needs to be reduced further in size I would have thought.
One complaint I came across in South Africa was that South African expats tend to bad mouth the country when they emigrate. Great to see Jacovs not fitting that mould. It's a beautiful country and if you had a good job there the lifestyle is out of this world...and the weather! It's easy to see why some South Africans crack up and move back home after moving to northern Europe.
And the weather, the one thing I dont miss...yet. I cant stand the heat. Trying to sleep in that heat if you dont have aircon, impossible. I much prefer the irish weather. Saying that, from what I can tell the 2 years ive been here hasnt been the worst weather ireland has seen.
I think most bad mouth the government, which isnt to say they bad mouth the country itself.0 -
Think me and my relatively large family have been quite lucky in that we havent been victims of violent crimes like so many of the expats. Other crimes yes, but nothing bad, by SA standards. It does taint your views when something like that happens. But theres also lots of people in SA who go through the same and cant move even if they want to, just have to get on with it.
And the weather, the one thing I dont miss...yet. I cant stand the heat. Trying to sleep in that heat if you dont have aircon, impossible. I much prefer the irish weather. Saying that, from what I can tell the 2 years ive been here hasnt been the worst weather ireland has seen.
I think most bad mouth the government, which isnt to say they bad mouth the country itself.
Yes the government takes a bit of flack for sure. Not for the weather though.
I imagine SA coming out of apartheid was always going to be difficult to get in real world shape as there is a lot of history between the ethnicisities there.0 -
Yes, but positive discrimination is still discrimination, not loss of privilege.Benny_Cake wrote: »There is a tendency amongst some to confuse loss of privilege with discrimination.
I've family in SA and the general message I've gotten is that life has become, on average, much harder for both the average black or white person. If you're not from a wealthy white family with connections, or black with ANC connections, things are largely not getting better. There's also a fear that SA may end up like Zimbabwe, with black frustrations at lack of improvement in their lives being eventually being pinned on the white community and emerging politicians such as Julius Malema, who are pandering to this approach, are adding to this fear. If this did come to pass, then whites realistically would not have much of a future in SA.
Will this come to pass though? No idea. I've certainly heard some pessimistic views from my cousins, but apparently - from this thread - there are some optimistic ones too. And while similar historically, SA and Zimbabwe are not the same. But there's strong similarities too.
TBH, were I in SA like my cousins, I'd hope for the best, but keep those EU passports up to date. Just in case.0 -
OP. I'd defiantly recommend visiting. A Beautiful country, great people.
Work a lot in Africa, which means a lot with South Africans. Believe they have the best work ethic on the continent. Fantastic people, to work and socialize with.
Interesting you mention the number of farmers being murdered in SA, few in the media seem to want to mention it.
Few days ago, one of the South Africans I'm working with in Angola at the moment mentioned that heard our president was in Johannesburg talking about changing the asylum system.
Asked, "Whats the chances of him and his family getting asylum in Ireland?" As being a member of the highest at-risk of murder group on the planet, they are being killed of as part of a government sanctioned scheme of land reclamation, that is being ignored by the media. Being "nationalized" is the term usually used.
He was fairly serious. However most I've met seem to be staying and believe their is a future, know a few who left and are going back. Many seem to believe it will get worse before it gets better, but that there is a future for the white folks in South Africa.
Have heard numerous variations of "Sure didn't the great Boer prophet Seer van Rensburg predict that the white people will again come to rule in Southern Africa".“Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”
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as rugby players:pac:
Seriously though, The loss of privilege must be hard for the white community to accept (I remember a documentary about white south Africans wanting their own state, a new Transvaal kinda deal and they were very racist people) but I'm sure they are a minority.
I suppose without the privilege offered by apartheid it's only logical that some would experience poverty in a country with as much poverty as South Africa.
unless something changes there's probably not much of a future for most people in South Africa, it will probably come to resemble south America with mixed race poverty0
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