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Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad
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16-12-2011 10:11pm#1Ireland is the only country in the EU currently which denies citizens born at home but living abroad the right to vote. Personally I think we need to fully include our fellow Irish all over the world to help in rebuilding our country and that includes allowing full participation in elections.We could quite easily form a few regional constituencies to represent those living abroad and incorporate them within the Dail with voting via embassies and consulates. It is all very well for the Irish government to be looking to Irish expats abroad for investment and economic aid but the current Irish government attitude of put up and then shut up is wrong and does not help us as a country.
Irish election is only for
the Irish living in Ireland, leaving out expatriates everywhere
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Candidates for the presidency of Ireland recently took part in a radio debate. AP photo/Julien Behal-pa
By Steven Lydon
Steven Lydon is a recently-disenfranchised Irish PhD candidate in German Philosophy at Harvard University.
The upcoming presidential election has once again drawn international attention to Ireland, but this time in a more positive light.
This is in large part due to the exciting nature of the contest: among the candidates are Michael D. Higgins, a gifted orator, poet, and social activist; David Norris, the charismatic flag-bearer of James Joyce and gay-rights; and Martin McGuinness, former IRA leader and principle orchestrator of the peace process in Northern Ireland, draw the bulk of media attention.
But the presidential campaign has also thrown some light on an issue of increasing importance: the voting rights of Irish citizens abroad.
Under Irish electoral law Irish citizens cannot cast a ballot if they live outside of Ireland. If you attempt to vote, you've committed electoral fraud and could face two years in prison.
This is no insignificant fact given that at least 60,000 Irish citizens have emigrated in the last three years, in large part due to the economic catastrophe that took place under the former Fíanna Fáil-led government.
According to the Central Statistics Office (CSO) emigration mushroomed by 81% in the period from 2006-2010, bringing net outward migration from Ireland to its highest level since the late 1980s. An estimated 3.1 million Irish passport holders live abroad, 800,000 of whom are Irish-born.
"As an Irish citizen abroad, I neither have the right to vote in my adopted country nor the country of which I am a citizen. I have effectively been removed from democracy," said Tim Mac An Airchinnigh, an Irish emigrant living in France. "The Irish government is terrified of giving its emigrants the vote precisely because those emigrants have such a vested interest in voting. This is the real human fallout of the current system's immense failures, and no government wants (to give) such people access to democracy. They know too well the answer they'll get."
Hugh McCafferty has been living in Japan for two years. "I intend to return to Ireland in July 2012. By that time, I will have missed a general election (2011), a presidential election (2011), and a referendum (2009, Lisbon II). I will return to a country very different to the one I left and a political landscape that I was given no opportunity to shape," he said. "If Ireland wants to attract its best and brightest back home, it must give them some stock in Irish society and allow them to remain engaged meaningfully in political and social affairs."
This situation is becoming ever more unusual in an international context. The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (IIDEA) reports that a total of 115 countries provide their citizens with voting rights in national elections to varying degrees, including Germany, Spain, France, and Australia.
The Irish president cannot constitutionally implement change in this area. In terms of political power, it is a limited, largely symbolic office. However, presidents can and do call attention to specific political issues, making use of the platform afforded them. Over the course of the current campaign, candidates have commented on the issue during speeches abroad.
Higgins is the only candidate to support general election voting reform. He suggested in a recent speech to Irish emigrés in London that “one formula that I believe is worthy of consideration is that those who were on the electoral register, or would be entitled to be on it, should be able to retain the right to vote in some, or all, elections for a specified period, perhaps five to 10 years.”
Norris has come out in favor of emigrant voting rights, but only in presidential elections.
His stance on the issue of general elections is less clear, claiming that "the old saying of 'no representation without taxation' may apply."
Norris's position on this issue is unusual, as it is one normally voiced by conservative commentators,who invert the rallying cry of 18th century American revolutionaries. However, the argument is seriously undermined by the fact that no other nation links expat voting with expat taxation.
The U.S . is the only developed nation that requires its citizens abroad to pay taxes on money earned abroad, but it required the payment of taxation on foreign-earned income long before it granted voting rights to expats, and voting is not conditional on the payment of taxes. Likewise, the payment of taxation is not required for voting rights for Irish residents.
Some object to emigrant voting because they fear that voters who live in Ireland would be outnumbered by the number of people who would be eligible to vote from abroad. However, most proponents of emigrant voting limit their proposals to only Irish-born people living abroad. Furthermore, international experience would suggest that only a small proportion of those would be interested in voting.
Others suggest that Irish people abroad quickly lose touch with the country, and can’t stay informed enough to vote responsibly. But that argument is weakened by the numerous news sources available online. Indeed, voters within the country are not required to demonstrate their knowledge of Irish affairs.
Few are willing to take a concrete stance on this issue in the Dáil, Ireland's parliament. The Minister of Agriculture Simon Coveney is an exception. During the last election campaign he is on record as saying that the exclusion of recent Irish emigrants from the general election was “obscene,” and said his position had not changed since becoming a minister.
However, he also noted that the legal advice received on emigrant voting “hasn’t been overly positive to date. If extending the franchise to expats requires a constitutional referendum, that could not happen until next year at the earliest." No consitutional referendum on the issue is currently scheduled.2
Comments
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If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?0
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Some People who become emigrants due so by necessity rather than it being a career choice; if they still lived in Ireland they probably would be on the Live Register rather than in a job & paying taxes.
One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.0 -
One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.
This is the biggest issue I can see as well. There are around 400,000 Irish passport holders in NI, if I recall correctly (and many more entitled to one, but that's another matter). How many of those would actually vote, I don't know. According to Peter Geoghegan, there are around three million people with Irish passports outside (the Republic of) Ireland. This is around the same number as the entire population entitled to vote within the state.
One solution would be to impose time limits like some other countries do - you can only vote for so many years after you've stopped living in the state (the UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are examples of this). This would exclude people who have Irish passports but have never lived within the jurisdiction.
Another issue is how to treat their votes. Do they vote in the constituency they last lived in (which would be an absolute administrative nightmare), or should there be a separate expatriate constituency with a fixed number of seats regardless of the number entitled to vote in it? The Italian lower house has 12 seats (out of 630) elected by emigrants, for example.0 -
Surely one should live in , contribute to and pay taxes in the country in which they wish to cast their vote.
I have a relative in the US for the last 60 years. They have been home to Ireland twice, yet they are an Irish citizen. Should they have a vote in how the country is run? Should second generation Irish from UK, Aus, NZ etc have a vote here? What if FF had been returned to power because of the green tinted spectacles worn by many expats and their successors?0 -
This is the biggest issue I can see as well. There are around 400,000 Irish passport holders in NI, if I recall correctly (and many more entitled to one, but that's another matter). How many of those would actually vote, I don't know. According to Peter Geoghegan, there are around three million people with Irish passports outside (the Republic of) Ireland. This is around the same number as the entire population entitled to vote within the state.
One solution would be to impose time limits like some other countries do - you can only vote for so many years after you've stopped living in the state (the UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are examples of this). This would exclude people who have Irish passports but have never lived within the jurisdiction.
Another issue is how to treat their votes. Do they vote in the constituency they last lived in (which would be an absolute administrative nightmare), or should there be a separate expatriate constituency with a fixed number of seats regardless of the number entitled to vote in it? The Italian lower house has 12 seats (out of 630) elected by emigrants, for example.
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.
One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.0 -
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Lapsed Catholic wrote: »Surely one should live in , contribute to and pay taxes in the country in which they wish to cast their vote.
I have a relative in the US for the last 60 years. They have been home to Ireland twice, yet they are an Irish citizen. Should they have a vote in how the country is run? Should second generation Irish from UK, Aus, NZ etc have a vote here? What if FF had been returned to power because of the green tinted spectacles worn by many expats and their successors?
Only Irish born citizens would have a vote. That is currently estimated to be about 800,000. The old tax argument is very common. But this is undermined by the fact that no other nation links home born citizens living abroad being able to vote with taxation. Currently most developed nations including the whole EU outside Ireland allow emigrant voting. In reality the no taxation argument is an argument that calls for a restriction on democracy. We don't say the poor cannot vote. They have the same rights to vote as the most wealthy do. We do not exclude those who gain more in benefits then they pay in taxes from voting.
Lets also not forget that not allowing Irish born emigrants to vote is something that the establishment that got us in the mess we are in want because clearly the majority of those who have or will leave are those struggling economically so obviously it is good for those politicans to get rid of these people so they can't vote them out.
Ireland also has long and very aggressively looked to tap it's emigrant citizens for direct and indirect economoic aid, investment etc. The current model seems to be one of looking for help from emigrants but then they must shut up. Not a good model. Right now Ireland has a highly loyal diaspora that is very influential in getting foreign investment into Ireland, networking, opeining new markets etc all in Irelands favour. In fact considering it's size and the size of ireland itself I would say our dispora has been very effective in helping Ireland. I think by encouraging the Irish born living abroad to have a greater role in the country can be a benefit to the country by encouraging further willingness to work on behalf and for the benefit of Ireland.0 -
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.
One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.
In the GFA the Constitution of Ireland was amended so that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland. This is where the problems will arise imo.0 -
the groutch wrote: »If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?
'Abandon your homeland'?
What kind of ****ing stupid statement is that?
Tell me, are the thousands of Irish people who were forced abroad due the jobs crisis, abandoning their homeland?
You tool.0 -
As some one who lived abroad for 10 years, and susequently returned, I certainly don't feel that I abandoned my country.
Originally Posted by eire4
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word
My eldest son was born overseas. He has dual citizenship. He is as Irish as I am. He plays hurling, I played rugby. He has an Irish accent, an Irish soul, an Irish attitude. If he decides to emigrate from Ireland, not his birthplace, he will be prevented from voting here under these proposals. The Irish born children of immigrants will be allowed to vote here, despite their possible return to the country of birth of their parents, they may never speak Irish or English, they will be Irish only through an accident of birth.
I am against expat votes, however I am open to debate. But where does one make the cut off point?0 -
The suggestion is to give the right to vote to Irish born citizens. Born being the key word. So in terms of Irish people outside the Island of Ireland there are something in the region of 800,000 Irish born citizens living outside the island of Ireland.
I wouldn't agree with that. It would have it as Irish citizens who have lived in (the Republic of) Ireland that get the vote for 'x' number of years after leaving. Otherwise you're discriminating against those who have not been Irish citizens from birth.
To allow all Irish 'born' citizens to vote would include everyone in Northern Ireland and could severely distort everything as well. Of course, any Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland, who lives in the Republic, and then moves on, would be entitled along the same lines as those who were born in the Republic (even if they move back to Northern Ireland).One of the ideas in terms of represetation in the Dail is to set up a few regional constituencies and this is where those living outside Ireland would vote using embassies and consulates to actually cast votes.
Postal voting or even internet voting could be examined as well as embassy/consulate voting. France has experimented with online voting for some of its citizens abroad.0 -
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Some countries have time limits for the voting rights of their citizens living abroad. Personally I think this is very arbitrary and fundamentally I think that an Irish born citizen should always be entitled to vote and have a voice in our country.
For example Mexico is a country that has seen many citizens living outside the state play a much more active role in helping to fund and support projects back in their own couuntry since they gave the right to vote to emigrants.
Our own government in it's smart economic strategy seeks emigrants to play a vital role and both the Taoiseach and President McAleese have repeatedly made statements praising our emigrants and the leading role they are playing in the attempt to rebuild our country. So why not give these emigrants and and maybe even encourage a wider cross section of emigrants to play a big role in helping the country economically. As I said before right now the Irish government policy is one of put up the money and then shut up.
Surely a more positive outlook would be full participation and actually encourgaing our great disapora to fully participate in the Ireland of today and tomorrow.0 -
the groutch wrote: »If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?
That is sad that you would make such a pejorative statement like that. There are a great many people who have left Ireland through no fault of their own. There are many Irish who as emigrants have greatly helped our country and their contribution deserves great praise.
For a country like ours with such a sad and often tragic history when it comes to emigration I think the strength and determination of so many Irish to become a success in so many places around the world deserves praise.0 -
the groutch wrote: »If you abandon your homeland, why should you have the right to say how it's run?
I would not call the 1950's -1980's and the present time as a time where the Irish have abandoned their homeland. You sound like the Bull McCabe from the Field.
I would agree that Irish born and bred Citizens who have immigrated should at least be allowed to vote for the Presidential Elections. I would not be keen on the elections for the Dáil, I would share some of your sentiment there, I suppose, but even then, I would not agree to a blanket ban.
Our Constitution since 1980's allows the Oireachtas to legislate to give some Non Irish Residents, in particular the "old enemy" the British the right to vote in the Dáil. So why should we disenfranchise some Irish emigrants, who clearly intend to return Ireland in the future (hopefully, in the lifetime of a government) We are very very very very very very very quick to suck up to our Irish diaspora in America when we want the big shots in Congress and the White House to listen to us, without many of whom Bill Clinton might not have had the time to pay an interest in the troubles. Our families relied on the money being sent home in the bad old times (that example ridicules the complains of Polish etc sending money to Poland etc)0 -
I wouldn't agree with that. It would have it as Irish citizens who have lived in (the Republic of) Ireland that get the vote for 'x' number of years after leaving. Otherwise you're discriminating against those who have not been Irish citizens from birth.
As for Citizens, you mean the ISLAND of IRELAND. Our Citizenship Legislation and Our Constitution, despite GFA, does not distinguish between the North and South Jurisdictions with regard to who is a citizen or not. (of course actual sovereignty and territorial claim is another thing, but Constitutional wise, the old text was merely an aspiration)
Good point on the Naturalisation angle, (the only people who can be Irish without being born in Ireland) even then,as you point out below, you are discriminating our Northern Breathern who hold Irish PassportsTo allow all Irish 'born' citizens to vote would include everyone in Northern Ireland and could severely distort everything as well. Of course, any Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland, who lives in the Republic, and then moves on, would be entitled along the same lines as those who were born in the Republic (even if they move back to Northern Ireland).
I see what you are saying, but,
There would be SFA distortion if the franchise just extended to The Presidency, who, although only has powers for the 26 counties, is clearly the State Head of the Irish Nation also and she / he represents the Irish People both home and abroad. An extension of that to at least to Northerns and Irish Citizens who left the South 5 years ago should happen . See how it goes.
Even if it was the Dáil, it would be clear that it would only be to have a voice in the 26 counties. British Jurisdiction is in no way infringed so they (and they will complain - but its still absolute nonsense) have no excuses or complaints. Voting would not be mandatory and time limits as to registering will be set in the same way we who are born and bred in the south have to make sure we are registered on the ballot.Postal voting or even internet voting could be examined as well as embassy/consulate voting. France has experimented with online voting for some of its citizens abroad.
Agreed. But no doubt, the embassies would mess that up. A few people in the Donegal islands were told by the High Court years ago that they did not have an absolute Constitutional right to postal voting and to make sure that they get it.0 -
In the GFA the Constitution of Ireland was amended so that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland. This is where the problems will arise imo.
There should be no problems there either. It would not effect British Sovereignty. It would only give those in NI, who wanted it, a voice in "Southern" issues. Britain would have NO right whatsoever to butt in. For them to argue the usual and valid point of loyalty and fidelity etc to the Crown or State, like any other citizen of a country (like our Article 9) would be utterly laughable considering the craic that went on for the last 40 years.
GFA only changed the Constitution regarding the Territorial claim, or more to the point, make it spell out what the Supreme Court had already said in 1990; that it was aspirational. That is Articles 2 and 3. Articles 2 and 3 said nothing about the right to citizenship, really. that can be found at Article 9.The Constitutional Change said nothing NEW about citizenship or altered the position already provided in 1956, bar outright entitlement.
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2. The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.
3. Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory, the laws enacted by that Parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.
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2. It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
3.1. It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
3.2. Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.
Our Citizenship laws of 1956 -2004 are relevant.
But even if GFA did not come into being, the 1956 Act, provided a way for Northerners to be Irish Citizens.
If the were born on the "island of Ireland" they were automatically an Irish citizen if born
(a)on the island of Ireland before 6 December 1922, (Charlie Haughey's parents were Northerns, Frank Aiken was a Northerner, hardly going to call them British?)
(b)in the territory which currently comprises the Republic of Ireland,
(c)from the North on or after 6 December 1922 with a parent who was an Irish citizen at the time of birth (Mary McAleese's father was from Roscommon, so for the ignorant gob****es who taught she was British should really shut the **** up);
If you were born in Northern Ireland (and some how did not meet with the above) you at least had the right to apply to be a citizen, even if you were not automatically entitled as of birth (and applied retrospectively, as per old Section 6 and 7 of the 1956 Act) The 1956 Act was far more friendlier than the one in the 1930's which gave Northerns no rights. So that gets rid of any nonsense about people like Gerry Adams being a Brit before GFA.
GFA was a gesture, citizenship wise, an extremely significant gesture that Northern Born People could be Irish Citizens automatically (of course slightly changed on the island via Section 6A in 2004 Referendum), as oppose to the distinction between automatic and entitlement. The real significance of GFA to the North -South was the specific spelling out of the Boundaries, went had already happened in the Supreme Court in 1990. It was a sop/good will gesture to the Unionists (validly enough)0 -
Some People who become emigrants due so by necessity rather than it being a career choice; if they still lived in Ireland they probably would be on the Live Register rather than in a job & paying taxes.
One of the biggest issues I can see is the position of Northern Ireland, Should Irish citizens in NI be entitled to vote here it would be a whole new ball game in the Irish political scene,That is a big question that would come out in a debate on this and why previous governments have failed to address it in any meaning full way.
Ah, I doubt the partition brigade would want angry men from Lurgan and Belfast cribbing and crying over how the South does things (after all, what goes on in the Dáil won't effect the every day life of the 6 counties - and maybe even the well meaning non partitonist in the South won't want them butting in?) Unless FG and FF got their act together in the North (as FF had planned to do,much to the annoyance of both SDLP and SF -Partitionism in reverse) FG and FF won't want it as it hurts their turf and potential. It would not necessarily mean that SF would get more seats either though.
It would really tell us what are the true aspirations of the "Republican Party"
They should at least give the Presidency a test drive0 -
walrusgumble wrote: »There would be SFA distortion if the franchise just extended to The Presidency, who, although only has powers for the 26 counties, is clearly the State Head of the Irish Nation also and she / he represents the Irish People both home and abroad. An extension of that to at least to Northerns and Irish Citizens who left the South 5 years ago should happen . See how it goes.
Agree entirely about the presidency.Even if it was the Dáil, it would be clear that it would only be to have a voice in the 26 counties. British Jurisdiction is in no way infringed so they (and they will complain - but its still absolute nonsense) have no excuses or complaints. Voting would not be mandatory and time limits as to registering will be set in the same way we who are born and bred in the south have to make sure we are registered on the ballot.
Well, if the vote for Dáil was extended to all Irish citizens, regardless of prior residency in the jurisdiction, then the only real way to do it is by having an emigrant/expatriate/citizens abroad constituency (of a fixed number of seats regardless of the size of those elected to vote). If you want to have them vote in a geographic constituency (Galway West, Dublin South, etc.), then it would have to be based on prior residency (I'm not 100% sure but I think New Zealand and the UK adopt this).
It all comes down to how you want to treat Irish citizens abroad - as equals based on prior residency, or by simply giving them a voice (and thus not have their votes treated equally as those resident in the state as their number of seats would be fixed).Agreed. But no doubt, the embassies would mess that up. A few people in the Donegal islands were told by the High Court years ago that they did not have an absolute Constitutional right to postal voting and to make sure that they get it.
It's a complete joke when you consider some that countries allow every voter to use a postal ballot if they wish.0 -
walrus gumbo wrote: »Ah, I doubt the partition brigade would want angry men from Lurgan and Belfast cribbing and crying over how the South does things (after all, what goes on in the Dáil won't effect the every day life of the 6 counties - and maybe even the well meaning non partitonist in the South won't want them butting in?) Unless FG and FF got their act together in the North (as FF had planned to do,much to the annoyance of both SDLP and SF -Partitions in reverse) FG and FF won't want it as it hurts their turf and potential. It would not necessarily mean that SF would get more seats either though.
It would really tell us what are the true aspirations of the "Republican Party"
They should at least give the Presidency a test drive
Actually Imo it could hurt SF as SDLP & Alliance voters would certainly be voting for FG/FF .0 -
There may be 3 referendums in Ireland in 2012. One on Europe's plans for fiscal union. As a ex-pat with every ambition to return home I want my vote; regardless of what issues the current political leaders have to face up to.
A petition entitled Irish Citizens: Support the call for Voting Rights for the Irish Living Abroad has been created to bring some weight to this issue.
To add your name to the petition click here:
http://www.change.org/petitions/irish-citizens-support-the-call-for-voting-rights-for-the-irish-living-abroad?share_id=fqeplAtaZa&
Please ask family and friends to sign up as well and spread the word.
Pádraig0 -
Very happy to sign and support the demand for voting rights for Irish born citizens living abroad.0
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My brother has been living in the US for about 6 years now. He has dual citizenship, but has lost touch with the day-to-day issues of the country. Despite the fact that he would vote on the same lines as me, neither of us believe he should have a vote here.
You should have to suffer the consequences of your vote.
It could be argued that the ex-pats might make more intelligent decisions than fools like me who have stayed in the country, but I would rather suffer the consequence of my neighbours bad vote than the bad vote of people thousands of miles away, who's lives are minimally effected by their choice.0 -
lunar.wire wrote: »My brother has been living in the US for about 6 years now. He has dual citizenship, but has lost touch with the day-to-day issues of the country. Despite the fact that he would vote on the same lines as me, neither of us believe he should have a vote here.
You should have to suffer the consequences of your vote.
It could be argued that the ex-pats might make more intelligent decisions than fools like me who have stayed in the country, but I would rather suffer the consequence of my neighbours bad vote than the bad vote of people thousands of miles away, who's lives are minimally effected by their choice.
So because your brother has lost touch then all Irish born citizens living abroad should lose the right to vote?
There are many people who have left Ireland and who follow events and whats going on very closely. Having said that I am sure there are many people living in Ireland who do not follow events and the issues of the day closely or at all. Should they lose their right to vote? Are we going to have some kind of test to show a level of competency with the issues of the day before someone can vote? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.I would also say there are many Irish born citiznes who live a long way from Ireland due to the incompetence and corruption rampant in Ireland. They certainly were greatly affected by the decisions of you and your neighbour. Your obviously entitled to your opinions but sadly Ireland is at odds with the entire rest of the EU and much of the world in denying Irish born citizens living abroad the right to vote.
Yet Ireland continues to extend the hand looking for it's ex pat community to help the country economically. Ireland needs to stop treating it's citizens living abroad with such disrepect. Ireland needs to recognise that due to the nature of emigration in modern Irish society we have seen large numbers of Irish born citizens who are very well educated leave the country and become very successful abroad. Ireland if it wants to tap into their skills and connections and really engage the whole Irish nation so to speak needs to bring these Irish citizens into the fold and give them a full role in the country and helping rebuild our country.
I firmly believe bringing Irish born citizens into the fold and giving them a voice and a role in the Ireland of today and tomorrow is something that will enhance our country greatly especially in these tough times when Ireland needs all the help it can get.0 -
I think you probably know that is not what I am saying. The point regarding my brother is that not even he thinks he does not deserves a vote.So because your brother has lost touch then all Irish born citizens living abroad should lose the right to vote?
I realise these may be a sensitive issue to you, but my point is, as someone who is living here, that I want the voter to experience the consequences of their vote.
I have suffered the consequences of my neighbours vote for many years as I didn't vote for the neo-lib policies of FF/FG. I didn't play gombeen politics. As we live in a majority rule situation, I reluctantly except that other people wanted those polices. For my part, I (unfortunately) voted for the Greens, since then I have realised that there is no representation that will represent my views. They will sing one song in opposition and a completely different one in government. However, I valued democracy (when we had it) and hope that we can get it back. I also still vote, despite not really seeing much point in it. I fully expect the person I vote for to betray their electorates too.They certainly were greatly affected by the decisions of you and your neighbour.
I disagree.Ireland needs to recognise that due to the nature of emigration in modern Irish society we have seen large numbers of Irish born citizens who are very well educated leave the country and become very successful abroad. Ireland if it wants to tap into their skills and connections and really engage the whole Irish nation so to speak needs to bring these Irish citizens into the fold and give them a full role in the country and helping rebuild our country.
I firmly believe bringing Irish born citizens into the fold and giving them a voice and a role in the Ireland of today and tomorrow is something that will enhance our country greatly especially in these tough times when Ireland needs all the help it can get.
Firstly for the reason mentioned above, that ex-pats aren't directly effected by their vote.
Secondly, I don't agree with the the narrative of necessity for emigration. They are not refugees in the normal sense. It's unlikely that they would starve or be killed if they lived in Ireland. They may not be as fulfilled or as wealthy, but they could stay if they really wanted to. They could try and fix the country. Not every country has a default emigration policy.
I've heard a number of people say that they will come back when it's better. How do they think this will happen? Are we to have them vote so Ireland becomes less different than their host country?
Most of the stories from the people leaving are of "no prospects", or of a more satisfactory life in their host country - more money - more prospects, etc..... and fair play to them. Go for it. Have a nice time, make your money and come back when you want, but for me it is an anathema to give a vote to people who've decided to this.
I wouldn't expect it if I left (which I have thought about)
Thirdly, ex-pats who want help rebuild the country need avenues to do so. Voting is but one option. If they care about Ireland other ways could be created. For instance, they could support volunteer groups & charities in Ireland.... or whatever - haven't thought much about it, but there must be hundreds of ways they could help.
Essentially, if the nation-state idea ever made any sense, then surely it is people within the state that need to decide how they want to live, not those without. I'd be a lot more inclined toward giving immigrants a vote instead.
I know you my not like that view.
As stated earlier, ex-pats (such as my brother), may even vote in lines that I agree with. For instance they might not be as easily fooled to change a referendum vote from No to Yes for spurious reasoning like "Jobs, Economy and a Stronger Europe", but I still would not like to see ex-pats get a vote.
Ireland is not only and idea it's a place.
(edit)
However, I think that ex-pats are a powerful lobby group and that our media are probably behind that idea. Our “leaders” will probably enact a law in these lines in the coming years. Probably after becoming a state of the United States Of Europe.0 -
lunar.wire wrote: »I think you probably know that is not what I am saying. The point regarding my brother is that not even he thinks he does not deserves a vote.
I realise these may be a sensitive issue to you, but my point is, as someone who is living here, that I want the voter to experience the consequences of their vote.
I have suffered the consequences of my neighbours vote for many years as I didn't vote for the neo-lib policies of FF/FG. I didn't play gombeen politics. As we live in a majority rule situation, I reluctantly except that other people wanted those polices. For my part, I (unfortunately) voted for the Greens, since then I have realised that there is no representation that will represent my views. They will sing one song in opposition and a completely different one in government. However, I valued democracy (when we had it) and hope that we can get it back. I also still vote, despite not really seeing much point in it. I fully expect the person I vote for to betray their electorates too.
I disagree.
Firstly for the reason mentioned above, that ex-pats aren't directly effected by their vote.
Secondly, I don't agree with the the narrative of necessity for emigration. They are not refugees in the normal sense. It's unlikely that they would starve or be killed if they lived in Ireland. They may not be as fulfilled or as wealthy, but they could stay if they really wanted to. They could try and fix the country. Not every country has a default emigration policy.
I've heard a number of people say that they will come back when it's better. How do they think this will happen? Are we to have them vote so Ireland becomes less different than their host country?
Most of the stories from the people leaving are of "no prospects", or of a more satisfactory life in their host country - more money - more prospects, etc..... and fair play to them. Go for it. Have a nice time, make your money and come back when you want, but for me it is an anathema to give a vote to people who've decided to this.
I wouldn't expect it if I left (which I have thought about)
Thirdly, ex-pats who want help rebuild the country need avenues to do so. Voting is but one option. If they care about Ireland other ways could be created. For instance, they could support volunteer groups & charities in Ireland.... or whatever - haven't thought much about it, but there must be hundreds of ways they could help.
Essentially, if the nation-state idea ever made any sense, then surely it is people within the state that need to decide how they want to live, not those without. I'd be a lot more inclined toward giving immigrants a vote instead.
I know you my not like that view.
As stated earlier, ex-pats (such as my brother), may even vote in lines that I agree with. For instance they might not be as easily fooled to change a referendum vote from No to Yes for spurious reasoning like "Jobs, Economy and a Stronger Europe", but I still would not like to see ex-pats get a vote.
Ireland is not only and idea it's a place.
(edit)
However, I think that ex-pats are a powerful lobby group and that our media are probably behind that idea. Our “leaders” will probably enact a law in these lines in the coming years. Probably after becoming a state of the United States Of Europe.
Well we are obviously just going to disagree about Irish born citizens living abroad having the right to vote and all I know about your brother is what you wrote.You meant something different then what you wrote fair enough given you changed what you wrote to clarify.
Personally I see it as a tremendous opportunity for Ireland. Even more so in the case of Ireland as we as a country have had emmigration play such a massive role in our society for a long time now. The result of which is we have very significant representation in many very important corners of the world. This is a largely unused resource. I say open our arms to our diaspora accept them as equals and bring them fully into the fold and encourage them to buy into building a new and properous Ireland.
I do not want to get into a nasty name called sitaution but I must call you up on calling ex pats a "lobby" group. That is very insulting and beneath the issue. They are not a "lobby" group. They are Irish men and women just like you who are simply asking to be treated properly and given the right to vote just like those in every other EU country and througout much of the world.0 -
Disturbed by all this talk of 'born'...do naturalised Irish citizens working overseas not get a vote despite having paid at least 7 years tax and about a grand to process their citizenship. Or is there a two-tier citizenship??0
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No representation without taxation!0
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I was in Ireland for the Presidential Elections, had my voting card, but because I wasn't going to be around for the following years I felt it wasn't my place to vote.
That was the first election/referendum I didn't vote in since I turned 18.0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »No representation without taxation!
Right so no voting for the poor and others who for various reasons are outside the tax net.
No other EU country links voting rights to payment of taxation.0 -
Right so no voting for the poor and others who for various reasons are outside the tax net.
No other EU country links voting rights to payment of taxation.
Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.0 -
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Cavehill Red wrote: »Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.
Yep, agreed.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=763914920
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